for the agnostic.....

ISteveB · Sep 28, 2020

Moral Orel said:
What does that have to do with how long someone's been dead, though? Would this change if Huxley was still alive? Or if he died yesterday or a million years ago?

Well, since we're talking about the knowledge of whether something said is true or not, I'd say it has everything to do with whether what the now dead person spoke truth, from the position of experience/wisdom, or from ignorance, and just guessing.
Huxley was quite clear he was guessing.... It's not likely.....

Jeremiah, speaking for YHVH said--- I will give them a heart to know me.... says YHVH.

Or, in modern parlance---- do you want to actually know, or just believe someone who was guessing?

I don't know what God said, if anything, a long time ago. I know what Jeremiah said, and you're claiming I can test that. Okay, fine, but what does any of that have to do with how long folks have been dead? If Jeremiah just made that statement yesterday, I'd still be able to test it, right?

Well, if you don't know, then you should stop talking, go read, and learn.
Because what's written in the bible--- it's all prefaced with the phrase--- Thus says the LORD, ...... in fact, let's do it this way. Here's a link with which you can read for yourself.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
I've done a search, for the phrase--- thus saith.
I then did a phrase search for--- Thus saith the LORD.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
It's ironic that there are 910 results for the first, and 2856 results for the second.
So.... read through these, and then let's talk more.

You don't really have a choice but to base your life on ignorance. You can't act in accordance with something you don't know.

Well, maybe you don't have any choice. I've learned otherwise.

Clizby WampusCat · Sep 28, 2020

ISteveB said:
Then you have the answer you want.
As long as you believe what you think, instead of YHVH, you're not going to see the truth.

No, it is not that I want to not believe a god exists it is that the evidence does not point to a god existing. I never said it is what I think, it what I reasoned using logic. What I care about is truth, if a god exists, I want to know because it is true. When the evidence is sufficient for belief I will believe, I will have no choice.

I've been studying the bible for 42 years, and I've found the bible to be quite coherent, very moral, and supported by copious evidence to believe it's from YHVH.

Great, why should I believe your interpretation over another Christian's that disagree with your interpretation?

There's a statement in Psalms 18:26---

With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

Another translation states---
He who is holy will see you are Holy. But to the one whose way is not straight, you will be a hard judge.

Yet another states.....
To the pure you show yourself pure. But to the morally bankrupt, you appear to be perverse.

So, your own words state that God is not who he said he is, and his word is not what he said it is.

Psalm 19 states--

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward.

Show me that the bible is the word of God then I will take this into account. Until then it is not useful.

Sounds like God had previously provided you with what you asked..... did this take place before this point at the 18 year mark?

No, He did not. If He did, I would believe He exists. I asked to be convinced, I am not convinced so God did not provide me with what I asked.

Why did what took place change? According to Malachi 3:6, and Hebrews 13:8--- neither God, nor Jesus change. They remain consistent. So, if they remain consistent, then how did God change?

I never said God changed. My evaluation of the evidence changed to a better epistemology.

Well.... it reads to me that you wrote yourself off.

It reads to me that by your own words--- you wrote yourself off.

What does this mean?

Do you know what this is based on? there's actually a number of passages which allude to this, but there's one passage in particular which explicitly states--- if they left, they did so because they were not actually one of us to begin with. 1 John 2:19.

Believe what you want, however, that is beside the point. Here is my main point and question. Why wouldn't God convince me He existed when I asked? I asked Him to convince me He exists, I don't believe He exists so why would He not show me? He seems to have showed other people like yourself and Paul etc.

So, I'm more than a little curious why you think you deserve special treatment when we're all in exactly the same boat.... If I walk away from Jesus, it just demonstrates that I was never following him in the first place. Do you think I like that idea? I guarantee that I don't like it at all....

How is asking God for convincing evidence that a God exists wanting special treatment, especially when His book says He will answer if asked? Or do all Christians believe without sufficient evidence?

Jesus then talks about a builder who was going to build, but got half way through, and found he didn't have the resources to finish. He then talked about how those who saw him mocked him because he started and failed to finish. Bringing to bear the idea---- we really need to count the cost before we get started.
I'm sure you saw that passage numerous times-- based on your statement of having studied the gospels.

Yet you left.... It leads me to the question of--- did you understand what biblical faith actually was?
If you know God existed, yet you wanted some special revelation beyond what he already gave you, what did you think had changed about God?

Another translation of Psalms 18:26---
With the pure you will show yourself pure, and with the obstinate you will show yourself stubborn.

Israel saw God's reality throughout the Exodus. They were fed, given water, their clothing did not fail, their sandals survived for 40 years, they watched a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night, guide them from Egypt to the promise land. They saw God fight against their enemies..... 10 specific activities, which made God's reality irrefutable, and unquestionable. Yet, they did not believe him, and as such, excluded themselves from benefiting from God's Grace, and as a result, experienced God's Judgment. Numbers 14, and Hebrews 4:2.

God has demonstrated himself exactly as the bible describes him.
To the pure, he's demonstrated himself pure.

when I was stubborn, and opposed, he opposed me.
He's faithful to what he's said in the bible.

I've found in my 43+ years of learning to follow Jesus, the proverb which says---

3 Let not mercy and truth forsake you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

And lean not on your own understanding;

6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,

And He shall direct your paths.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh,
And strength to your bones.

is quite true.
Just as true as where Jesus said---

23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?

We've been invited to come follow Jesus. The gift he gives is eternal life. Living in a world where evil is all around us, where beauty, joy, sorrow, sadness, pain, heartache, hope, despair, etc..... ad infinitum, surround us, he told us--- life will get far worse, and be a nightmare. He also gives us the gift of himself to be with us, throughout our lives..... Just not how we think.

It's taken me over 20 years of being married before I understood what Jesus said about living under the same roof as me.... John 14:23.

If you keep my teachings, you will show you love me, and you will be loved by my Father, and we will come and make our home with you.

Living as a married man, for 30+ years now, I've come to understand that God's presence in my life is both subtle, and profound. Simple, and like a deep river, is calming, and sure.

All of this is irrelevant to my question of why will God not convince me He exists? I am sincere, I want to know if He exists, if He refuses to then how is this my fault? I will wait until God decides He wants to show me. What other choice do I have?

I believe because I know he's real, and I know he's knowable.

That is not a good reason to believe. How do you know He is real?

I think you were a believer. And I think God really did come make his home with you. I also think you got deceived as to what it means to follow Jesus, and trusted your own understanding, more than you did God's Wisdom. He's right where he was when you left.

I never left. He decided not to show me He exists. Or is He incapable?

All he's asking is for you to turn to him, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.

All I am asking is for a good reason to believe this is true. I don't think that is unreasonable.

zippy2006 · Sep 28, 2020

ISteveB said:
Well, since we're talking about the knowledge of whether something said is true or not, I'd say it has everything to do with whether what the now dead person spoke truth, from the position of experience/wisdom, or from ignorance, and just guessing.

@Moral Orel is asking why the date something was spoken should have anything to do with the question at hand. You wrote:

ISteveB said:
Why would you believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 140 years, when God clearly stated that he will give you what you need to know him?

Huxley said God probably can't be known; Jeremiah said he can be known. Huxley died 125 years ago; Jeremiah died 2,590 years ago.

You ask, "Why would you believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 140 years?"

Morel Orel asks in response, "Why should we instead believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 2,500 years?"

Surely Morel Orel's question makes sense.

ISteveB · Sep 28, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
No, it is not that I want to not believe a god exists it is that the evidence does not point to a god existing. I never said it is what I think, it what I reasoned using logic. What I care about is truth, if a god exists, I want to know because it is true. When the evidence is sufficient for belief I will believe, I will have no choice.

notice how you're stating this.... YHVH is not A god.
According to Isaiah 43:10-13,

10 “You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed,

Nor shall there be after Me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD,

And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”

Then according to Deuteronomy 32:17,

They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.

I find it curious that YHVH has said that even the gods are jonnhy-come-lately's. Wannabes.

There's only ONE who is God. His name is YHVH.
He has plainly stated he will make himself knowable to all who come to him, and place their trust in Jesus.

Great, why should I believe your interpretation over another Christian's that disagree with your interpretation?

Nobody said you had to. As a matter of fact-- I don't want you to take my word for it. I want you to take the time to do what Jesus said for yourself, and he'll demonstrate himself to you. Exactly as he said he would in John 14:20-24.
And the last I read--- we're not to believe any christian's interpretation. God is still alive, and quite capable of demonstrating an accurate interpretation. Just as it's written in 2 Peter 1:16-22.

What we are commanded is to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, and what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.
Take the time to learn for ourselves whether what I'm stating, what the bible is stating, is true or not.

Show me that the bible is the word of God then I will take this into account. Until then it is not useful.

God does that himself. But I've provided a list of authors who've written extensively on this matter.
Jesus on Trial: A Lawyer Affirms the Truth of the Gospel | David Limbaugh
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)

No, He did not. If He did, I would believe He exists. I asked to be convinced, I am not convinced so God did not provide me with what I asked.

Well, according to what you stated---

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

So.... either he did, or he didn't. If he did, you're now telling me you lied with this statement you made. If he didn't, then you lied in making me that statement....
Here's what I think you're not understanding..... biblical belief is not to force you to believe. It's a choice. It's a choice each and every day.
According to the statement you made in the previous post- which I've copied/pasted here-- you were given evidence/proof of his existence. Then at some subsequent point, you decided that wasn't enough, and wanted something other than what YHVH does. His silence wasn't ignoring you, or your request. It was giving you the choice---- do you believe what God has already stated/done, or do you go off on some tangent, ignoring what he said/done, and wind up trusting that silence as non-existence?

You appear to have decided in your lack of knowledge, you've figured out the truth.
Which you are indeed entitled to believe. It is after all your life. What you do with that life is all about what matters most to you.
This does not however mean that you're right, or have definitively proven God's non-existence. All it has done is demonstrated that your own thinking, and your own ego is more important to you than God is.
I.e., you have made your mind, and your ego your god.
And don't get all ticked off, or your panties in a bunch about this. People do it all the time. Eve did it in the garden. Cain did it afterwards. People have been doing this for millennia. It just means what they think they know is more important to them than the truth.

Eve's was a little more obvious.... But we read---
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate

John, in his first letter describes it as
Lust of the flesh
lust of the eyes
Pride of life
James describes it as

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

I never said God changed. My evaluation of the evidence changed to a better epistemology.

A better epistemology.
Ok. Please define that "better" form of knowledge.

What does this mean?

Well, you're the one who stated you once believed, then you "evaluated, based on a better epistemology" so, you wrote yourself off. You decided that you had more than enough information to choose that God is not real, and you walked away... or in simpler terms--- you quit.
So.... you wrote yourself off.

Believe what you want, however, that is beside the point. Here is my main point and question. Why wouldn't God convince me He existed when I asked? I asked Him to convince me He exists, I don't believe He exists so why would He not show me? He seems to have showed other people like yourself and Paul etc.

And what do you think is being convinced? Do you think that you lose the power to choose? Do you think being convinced of something means that you can't choose to dismiss it, and do what you want anyway?

How is asking God for convincing evidence that a God exists wanting special treatment, especially when His book says He will answer if asked? Or do all Christians believe without sufficient evidence?

Why were the experiences you described before not convincing?

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Those sound like pretty convincing proofs to me. So.... why are they not convincing proofs?
What changed that you decided those were unconvincing, and therefore, not real?

All of this is irrelevant to my question of why will God not convince me He exists? I am sincere, I want to know if He exists, if He refuses to then how is this my fault? I will wait until God decides He wants to show me. What other choice do I have?

Keep telling me that what I'm providing you is irrelevant, and you'll be the only one left in this discussion. I don't post irrelevancies. I state truth. If you don't like the truth, then you really don't want me involved in a discussion with you.

These are your words.

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

What changed about your perspective which made you decide that God had not previously convinced you?

That is not a good reason to believe. How do you know He is real?

the same way I know the sun is real. The same way I know how to drive a car. The same way I know my wife is real.
I engage in doing what he says he will respond, and engage me.

Since you're at least 48 now, are you married? Do you have children? Any grandchildren?
Do you have friends?
How do you know they're real?

I never left. He decided not to show me He exists. Or is He incapable?

Apparently you did.
Your own words state---

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Now you're claiming that God didn't give you evidence of his existence. that's the entire argument you're dealing with here. Once you believed, and now you don't because you didn't get what you thought was evidence.

All I am asking is for a good reason to believe this is true. I don't think that is unreasonable.

Looks to me that you previously had a good reason to believe, and then at some point, decided it wasn't enough, and you needed more.

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

I'll tell you what.
Here are a number of resources which I think are helpful.
Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Cold Case Christianity by J. Warner Wallace - Christian Apologetics
Home | Clay Jones
Os Guinness – A quiet voice on behalf of faith, freedom, truth, reason and civility
https://www.rzim.org/
https://www.johnlennox.org/
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=lusol_fac_pubs
https://books.google.com/books/abou...ver&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

You however will have to decide whether or not you are going to read them, and learn.
You made a choice at some point which you decided no longer warranted believe in Jesus. Yet, according to your own words, you were convinced you had a vibrant faith, and yet then decided the bible was incoherent, immoral, and

ISteveB · Sep 28, 2020

zippy2006 said:
@Moral Orel is asking why the date something was spoken should have anything to do with the question at hand. You wrote:

Huxley said God probably can't be known; Jeremiah said he can be known. Huxley died 125 years ago; Jeremiah died 2,590 years ago.

You ask, "Why would you believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 140 years?"

Morel Orel asks in response, "Why should we instead believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 2,500 years?"

Surely Morel Orel's question makes sense.

Huxley is dead.
YHVH is quite alive.
YHVH is the one who said---
I will give them a heart to know me.
Jeremiah simply wrote down what YHVH said.
Huxley wrote down what Huxley said.

Moral Orel · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
Well, since we're talking about the knowledge of whether something said is true or not, I'd say it has everything to do with whether what the now dead person spoke truth, from the position of experience/wisdom, or from ignorance, and just guessing.
Huxley was quite clear he was guessing.... It's not likely.....

Jeremiah, speaking for YHVH said--- I will give them a heart to know me.... says YHVH.

Or, in modern parlance---- do you want to actually know, or just believe someone who was guessing?

Just so we're clear though, it has nothing to do with how long a fella has been dead for. You made an effort to describe him in such a way, I thought there was a point to it, so I was curious what that point could have been, that's all.

But let's talk about knowledge and claims. Why do you think Huxley was just guessing simply because he used the phrase "It's not likely"? It's not likely that I'll win the lottery this Wednesday. It isn't impossible, I happen to have a ticket, but I know what the odds are based on calculating the amount of possible combinations of numbers, so my statement of "It's not likely" is informed and correct, not a mere guess. How do you know that Huxley didn't arrive at his probabilistic conclusion based on sound reasoning?

I actually think there's good reason to agree with Huxley. I'm a hard agnostic by the way. Have you ever stopped to contemplate the difference between knowing something and believing something?

ISteveB said:
Well, if you don't know, then you should stop talking, go read, and learn.
Because what's written in the bible--- it's all prefaced with the phrase--- Thus says the LORD, ...... in fact, let's do it this way. Here's a link with which you can read for yourself.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
I've done a search, for the phrase--- thus saith.
I then did a phrase search for--- Thus saith the LORD.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
It's ironic that there are 910 results for the first, and 2856 results for the second.
So.... read through these, and then let's talk more.

Yes, I'm aware that a lot of humans have claimed that God spoke to them. Why are you talking as though I should just accept that the Bible is a direct communication from God? You're putting the cart before the horse. You addressed this thread to agnostics, not fellow Bible Believing Christians.

ISteveB said:
Well, maybe you don't have any choice. I've learned otherwise.

Really? Can you tell me about something that you're completely ignorant of which you've chosen not to let impact your life choices?

ISteveB · Sep 29, 2020

Moral Orel said:
Just so we're clear though, it has nothing to do with how long a fella has been dead for. You made an effort to describe him in such a way, I thought there was a point to it, so I was curious what that point could have been, that's all.

But let's talk about knowledge and claims. Why do you think Huxley was just guessing simply because he used the phrase "It's not likely"? It's not likely that I'll win the lottery this Wednesday. It isn't impossible, I happen to have a ticket, but I know what the odds are based on calculating the amount of possible combinations of numbers, so my statement of "It's not likely" is informed and correct, not a mere guess. How do you know that Huxley didn't arrive at his probabilistic conclusion based on sound reasoning?

I actually think there's good reason to agree with Huxley. I'm a hard agnostic by the way. Have you ever stopped to contemplate the difference between knowing something and believing something?

Yes, I'm aware that a lot of humans have claimed that God spoke to them. Why are you talking as though I should just accept that the Bible is a direct communication from God? You're putting the cart before the horse. You addressed this thread to agnostics, not fellow Bible Believing Christians.

Really? Can you tell me about something that you're completely ignorant of which you've chosen not to let impact your life choices?

You however are not ignorant of God's existence.
You're on a christian forum, which has dedicated itself to making God's reality known to its membership.
So, claiming ignorance--- the lack of knowledge--- of God's existence.... by being on this forum, having dialogued with numerous different people, you're choosing ignorance-- deliberately and willfully choosing to remain ignorant.
That's not ignorance. That's stupidity.
And no. I am not saying you are stupid. I'm stating that the deliberate and willful decision to remain without knowledge of God is stupid.

God has made himself knowable to all who want to know him.

Huxley said--- it's not likely God can be known.

God told Jeremiah that he will give us a heart to know him.

Who do you believe? A guy who's been dead for 140 years? Or YHVH, who's been alive since eternity past?

I was taught to never just take someone's claim at face value-- and all the more so when someone says something isn't possible/likely.

YHVH made it quite clear---
In the day you seek him with a whole heart, he will make himself known to you.

Do nothing, and you remain as you are. Without knowledge.
Seek God with a whole heart, and he makes himself known.

Clizby WampusCat · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
notice how you're stating this.... YHVH is not A god.
According to Isaiah 43:10-13,

10 “You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed,

Nor shall there be after Me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD,

And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”

Then according to Deuteronomy 32:17,

They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.

I find it curious that YHVH has said that even the gods are jonnhy-come-lately's. Wannabes.

There's only ONE who is God. His name is YHVH.

Again, bible verses are not convincing until you can give sufficient evidence to believe that it is the word of God. Why do you believe He is the only God? Because He tells you?

He has plainly stated he will make himself knowable to all who come to him, and place their trust in Jesus.

I know this to be untrue from personal experience.

Nobody said you had to. As a matter of fact-- I don't want you to take my word for it. I want you to take the time to do what Jesus said for yourself, and he'll demonstrate himself to you. Exactly as he said he would in John 14:20-24.

Again, I know this to be untrue from personal experience.

And the last I read--- we're not to believe any christian's interpretation. God is still alive, and quite capable of demonstrating an accurate interpretation. Just as it's written in 2 Peter 1:16-22.

What we are commanded is to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, and what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.
Take the time to learn for ourselves whether what I'm stating, what the bible is stating, is true or not.

There are as many disagreements on what the bible means as there are Christians it seems. When Christians cannot even decide on how one is saved then why should I believe my interpretation or anyone elses? There is no way to verify what interpretation is correct.

God does that himself. But I've provided a list of authors who've written extensively on this matter.
Jesus on Trial: A Lawyer Affirms the Truth of the Gospel | David Limbaugh
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)

Until there is a reason to read these books I will pass.

Well, according to what you stated---

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

So.... either he did, or he didn't. If he did, you're now telling me you lied with this statement you made. If he didn't, then you lied in making me that statement....

Being mistaken is not lying.

Here's what I think you're not understanding..... biblical belief is not to force you to believe. It's a choice. It's a choice each and every day.
According to the statement you made in the previous post- which I've copied/pasted here-- you were given evidence/proof of his existence. Then at some subsequent point, you decided that wasn't enough, and wanted something other than what YHVH does. His silence wasn't ignoring you, or your request. It was giving you the choice---- do you believe what God has already stated/done, or do you go off on some tangent, ignoring what he said/done, and wind up trusting that silence as non-existence?

This is not the case. What happened is that I realized that I had insufficient reasons for my beliefs. Just like I used to believe that Santa was real. When I figured out he was not real it wasn't because I chose not to believe it was because I learned a better way to determine truth. That believing my parents about a supernatural being was not a good way to determine truth.

You appear to have decided in your lack of knowledge, you've figured out the truth.
Which you are indeed entitled to believe. It is after all your life. What you do with that life is all about what matters most to you.
This does not however mean that you're right, or have definitively proven God's non-existence. All it has done is demonstrated that your own thinking, and your own ego is more important to you than God is.

I have never said God does not exist. I have said I don't believe He exists. My position is there is insufficient evidence to believe he does exist. Much like Big Foot, I don't believe it exists but I cannot say it does not exist. Although I wish Big Foot did exist.

I.e., you have made your mind, and your ego your god.
And don't get all ticked off, or your panties in a bunch about this. People do it all the time. Eve did it in the garden. Cain did it afterwards. People have been doing this for millennia. It just means what they think they know is more important to them than the truth.

Not true. What I have done is learned a better way to determine truth. Faith is not a good way to determine truth. What I mean by truth is what conforms to reality. I value truth. So far all evidence for God that I have encountered is insufficient for belief.

Eve's was a little more obvious.... But we read---
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate

John, in his first letter describes it as
Lust of the flesh
lust of the eyes
Pride of life
James describes it as

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Again, scripture isn't persuasive to me until you can show it is from a God. I have tested it and fund it makes false claims.

A better epistemology.
Ok. Please define that "better" form of knowledge.

Not a better form of knowledge but a better way to get to knowledge and be confident that your beliefs are true. Being wrong feels the same as being right, so feelings for example are a poor method to determine truth. So far reason and logic tied to science has been the most reliable method to determine truth.

Well, you're the one who stated you once believed, then you "evaluated, based on a better epistemology" so, you wrote yourself off. You decided that you had more than enough information to choose that God is not real, and you walked away... or in simpler terms--- you quit.
So.... you wrote yourself off.

I did not quit I lost my belief.

And what do you think is being convinced? Do you think that you lose the power to choose? Do you think being convinced of something means that you can't choose to dismiss it, and do what you want anyway?

Yes. We cannot choose to believe something. We are either convinced or not by the evidence and our epistemological standards. I once believed God existed then I changed my standards for belief to a more trustworthy standard and I became unconvinced. No one can choose to believe something they are not convinced is true.

Why were the experiences you described before not convincing?

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Those sound like pretty convincing proofs to me. So.... why are they not convincing proofs?
What changed that you decided those were unconvincing, and therefore, not real?

I never decided anything was not real. I no longer believe they are real. First we have no eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. None. Second how can anyone reliably attribute a dream to a God? Muslims have dreams about Allah they think are from Allah, why are they not real? Thirdly feeling Gods presence when singing I can get that same feeling as an atheist singing emotional songs. Fourthly, I saw "proof" of my friends healing. X-rays before and after a lung cancer diagnosis about 3 days apart. What was t ought to have been cancer was gone after prayer. How can I know that God removed the cancer? People praying is not convincing because every time prayer has been tested it shows it no better than chance.

Keep telling me that what I'm providing you is irrelevant, and you'll be the only one left in this discussion. I don't post irrelevancies. I state truth. If you don't like the truth, then you really don't want me involved in a discussion with you.

I never said this. I said it was irrelevant to my question of divine hiddenness.

These are your words.

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

What changed about your perspective which made you decide that God had not previously convinced you?

See above.

the same way I know the sun is real. The same way I know how to drive a car. The same way I know my wife is real.
I engage in doing what he says he will respond, and engage me.

This is untrue. I know my wife exists because I can see her, touch her, talk to her etc. Not so with god. I have never seen God. He is conveniently invisible.

Since you're at least 48 now, are you married? Do you have children? Any grandchildren?
Do you have friends?
How do you know they're real?

See above.

Apparently you did.
Your own words state---

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Now you're claiming that God didn't give you evidence of his existence. that's the entire argument you're dealing with here. Once you believed, and now you don't because you didn't get what you thought was evidence.

No, I change my way of determining truth to a more reliable method.

Looks to me that you previously had a good reason to believe, and then at some point, decided it wasn't enough, and you needed more.

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Not more but better evidence.

I'll tell you what.
Here are a number of resources which I think are helpful.
Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Cold Case Christianity by J. Warner Wallace - Christian Apologetics
Home | Clay Jones
Os Guinness – A quiet voice on behalf of faith, freedom, truth, reason and civility
Home Page
Home page - John Lennox
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=lusol_fac_pubs
An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists, by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice

You however will have to decide whether or not you are going to read them, and learn.
You made a choice at some point which you decided no longer warranted believe in Jesus. Yet, according to your own words, you were convinced you had a vibrant faith, and yet then decided the bible was incoherent, immoral, and

I will pass. If the Bible is so perfect then why do I need to read 8 books by humans to determine what the bible says? I did not decide, I became unconvinced by the evidence.

ISteveB · Sep 29, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Again, bible verses are not convincing until you can give sufficient evidence to believe that it is the word of God. Why do you believe He is the only God? Because He tells you?

I know this to be untrue from personal experience.

Again, I know this to be untrue from personal experience.

There are as many disagreements on what the bible means as there are Christians it seems. When Christians cannot even decide on how one is saved then why should I believe my interpretation or anyone elses? There is no way to verify what interpretation is correct.

Until there is a reason to read these books I will pass.

Being mistaken is not lying.

This is not the case. What happened is that I realized that I had insufficient reasons for my beliefs. Just like I used to believe that Santa was real. When I figured out he was not real it wasn't because I chose not to believe it was because I learned a better way to determine truth. That believing my parents about a supernatural being was not a good way to determine truth.

I have never said God does not exist. I have said I don't believe He exists. My position is there is insufficient evidence to believe he does exist. Much like Big Foot, I don't believe it exists but I cannot say it does not exist. Although I wish Big Foot did exist.

Not true. What I have done is learned a better way to determine truth. Faith is not a good way to determine truth. What I mean by truth is what conforms to reality. I value truth. So far all evidence for God that I have encountered is insufficient for belief.

Again, scripture isn't persuasive to me until you can show it is from a God. I have tested it and fund it makes false claims.

Not a better form of knowledge but a better way to get to knowledge and be confident that your beliefs are true. Being wrong feels the same as being right, so feelings for example are a poor method to determine truth. So far reason and logic tied to science has been the most reliable method to determine truth.

I did not quit I lost my belief.

Yes. We cannot choose to believe something. We are either convinced or not by the evidence and our epistemological standards. I once believed God existed then I changed my standards for belief to a more trustworthy standard and I became unconvinced. No one can choose to believe something they are not convinced is true.

I never decided anything was not real. I no longer believe they are real. First we have no eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. None. Second how can anyone reliably attribute a dream to a God? Muslims have dreams about Allah they think are from Allah, why are they not real? Thirdly feeling Gods presence when singing I can get that same feeling as an atheist singing emotional songs. Fourthly, I saw "proof" of my friends healing. X-rays before and after a lung cancer diagnosis about 3 days apart. What was t ought to have been cancer was gone after prayer. How can I know that God removed the cancer? People praying is not convincing because every time prayer has been tested it shows it no better than chance.

I never said this. I said it was irrelevant to my question of divine hiddenness.

See above.

This is untrue. I know my wife exists because I can see her, touch her, talk to her etc. Not so with god. I have never seen God. He is conveniently invisible.

See above.

No, I change my way of determining truth to a more reliable method.

Not more but better evidence.

I will pass. If the Bible is so perfect then why do I need to read 8 books by humans to determine what the bible says? I did not decide, I became unconvinced by the evidence.

You're choosing to reject the bible, and supporting evidence that God is real, and the bible is God's Word.

It's pretty clear you don't actually want to know.
Have a nice day.

Clizby WampusCat · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
You're choosing to reject the bible, and supporting evidence that God is real, and the bible is God's Word.

It's pretty clear you don't actually want to know.
Have a nice day.

So you read my entire post in two minutes? I doubt it, because in there I give my reasons for my non belief. This is a good way out for you because you don't actually have to respond to my questions or responses to yours. Just call me a liar and leave, seems Christlike.

It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same conclusions as you, they must be untrustworthy or deceitful.

Clizby WampusCat · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
You however are not ignorant of God's existence.
You're on a christian forum, which has dedicated itself to making God's reality known to its membership.
So, claiming ignorance--- the lack of knowledge--- of God's existence.... by being on this forum, having dialogued with numerous different people, you're choosing ignorance-- deliberately and willfully choosing to remain ignorant.
That's not ignorance. That's stupidity.
And no. I am not saying you are stupid. I'm stating that the deliberate and willful decision to remain without knowledge of God is stupid.

God has made himself knowable to all who want to know him.

Huxley said--- it's not likely God can be known.

God told Jeremiah that he will give us a heart to know him.

Who do you believe? A guy who's been dead for 140 years? Or YHVH, who's been alive since eternity past?

I was taught to never just take someone's claim at face value-- and all the more so when someone says something isn't possible/likely.

YHVH made it quite clear---
In the day you seek him with a whole heart, he will make himself known to you.

Do nothing, and you remain as you are. Without knowledge.
Seek God with a whole heart, and he makes himself known.

I tried this and it is false. But hey I know you believe I must be at fault because you will never question your book, right?

Moral Orel · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
You however are not ignorant of God's existence.

Yes I am. Now I'm supposed to believe that you know what I know? Quick, I'm thinking of a number between one and a million...

ISteveB said:
You're on a christian forum, which has dedicated itself to making God's reality known to its membership.
So, claiming ignorance--- the lack of knowledge--- of God's existence.... by being on this forum, having dialogued with numerous different people, you're choosing ignorance-- deliberately and willfully choosing to remain ignorant.

I am not ignorant of the fact that there are folks who believe God exists. That has nothing to do with whether or not God actually exists though. Belief isn't a choice. And neither of us knows whether or not God exists. You believe He does, I lack that belief, but neither of us knows.

But you're right. CF and particularly the Apologetics section is here for Christians to convince us unbelievers that they'll find something if they seek it. So convince me that the test is going to come up the way you believe it will.

ISteveB said:
That's not ignorance. That's stupidity.
And no. I am not saying you are stupid. I'm stating that the deliberate and willful decision to remain without knowledge of God is stupid.

Meh. Same thing. But that's okay. I forgive you.

ISteveB said:
Huxley said--- it's not likely God can be known.

God told Jeremiah that he will give us a heart to know him.

Who do you believe? A guy who's been dead for 140 years? Or YHVH, who's been alive since eternity past?

I don't believe Huxley or Jeremiah. I happen to agree with Huxley for my own reasons.

But there you go again talking about how long Huxley's been dead. Jeremiah's been dead longer. We already established that's meaningless. Why do you keep describing him in such a way? Why not say, "Who do you believe? A guy with long hair or a guy with short hair?"

ISteveB said:
I was taught to never just take someone's claim at face value-- and all the more so when someone says something isn't possible/likely.

And yet you're telling me I should take Jeremiah's word that he speaks for God at face value.

ISteveB said:
YHVH made it quite clear---
In the day you seek him with a whole heart, he will make himself known to you.

I don't know what a "whole heart" is. My heart is healthy.

ISteveB said:
Do nothing, and you remain as you are. Without knowledge.
Seek God with a whole heart, and he makes himself known.

I'm not doing nothing. I'm here, on Christian Forums, listening to Christians, asking questions, contemplating answers. Why should I believe you or Jeremiah that I'll contact the creator of the universe if I seek Him?

ISteveB · Sep 29, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
So you read my entire post in two minutes? I doubt it, because in there I give my reasons for my non belief. This is a good way out for you because you don't actually have to respond to my questions or responses to yours. Just call me a liar and leave, seems Christlike.

It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same conclusions as you, they must be untrustworthy or deceitful.

You must not pay much attention to the way this forum works. Apparently because I started this thread, I inadvertently left the "receive emails" box checked. So I get notified by email each time someone posts. It allows me to read before I click back here.
Not the entire post, but enough. So, I can skim, and then in reading the rest, I saw what I needed.
You want to know God, you already know what to do. You don't want to know God, I'm not going to waste your time arguing.
I've learned enough a long time ago doing the same with lazy atheists and agnostics it's not constructive.

and it's not about untrustworthy, or deceitful....
It's about a choice.
You've made your choice, so I'm giving you what you want--- to live with that choice.

Or, as Paul told his hearers---- you judge yourself not worthy of eternal life. Acts 13:46.

Clizby WampusCat · Sep 29, 2020

ISteveB said:
I've learned enough a long time ago doing the same with lazy atheists and agnostics it's not constructive.

I am not lazy, I have actually done the work to study and understand the scripture, test it and study epistemology so I can have high confidence that I have good reasons for my beliefs. I have never questioned your sincerity or motivation to learn I would ask that you not do the same to others.

I have asked and begged God to reveal himself to me. He never did, so all I can conclude is that the bible is wrong on this topic.

and it's not about untrustworthy, or deceitful....
It's about a choice.
You've made your choice, so I'm giving you what you want--- to live with that choice.

I have not made a choice I am unconvinced by the evidence. Try to believe something that you do not believe is true, you can't.

Or, as Paul told his hearers---- you judge yourself not worthy of eternal life. Acts 13:46.

No, God does and He will send me to eternal torture for not believing from the scant evidence He provides. God can convince me He exists and then give me the choice to follow him or not. So He will be the one not giving me enough evidence for belief and then throwing me in hell for not believing. And you ask why I think the God as described in the bible is immoral. This is just one of many reasons.

ISteveB · Sep 30, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I am not lazy, I have actually done the work to study and understand the scripture, test it and study epistemology so I can have high confidence that I have good reasons for my beliefs. I have never questioned your sincerity or motivation to learn I would ask that you not do the same to others.

I don't think that I am questioning the sincerity of what you now believe.

I am asking questions about what you say you once believed.

This really isn't that difficult an idea.

God has explicitly stated that he will give us the wherewithal to know him.

He's further stated that he will make himself known to us when we seek him with a whole heart.

This is akin to the idea that I give you an address and time to meet me.

If you're serious about meeting me, you will show up at the prescribed time and place.

If not, but you want to give the appearance of sincerity, you'll go all over the place, to every location except where I gave you instructions for. You may even do it at the time I stated.
This will give you the wherewithal to claim-- hey, I went looking for you at the time you said, but I couldn't find you.

I can work through the process pretty simply by asking too-- did you go to this location?

You can toy with me, and respond using vague words about it, giving the impression to everyone who is listening that you were in the area, without actually stating that you came to the specific location.

As eternity is the issue here, you can toy with it, and when you die, you'll learn the hard way how deeply you screwed yourself.

Or.... you can take God seriously and do what he says is necessary to know him.

God is not looking for sincerity.
He's looking for you to take him seriously. And yes. There is a difference between the two.

I have asked and begged God to reveal himself to me. He never did, so all I can conclude is that the bible is wrong on this topic.

Jesus made it really simple.
If you keep his teachings, you will show him that you love him and you will be loved by God and both God and Jesus will come make their home with you. John 14:20-24.

This is as unmistakable as it gets.

I've been married to my wife for 30 years now. If I ever had any questions about her reality, they were banished when we began living under the same roof with each other.
Her habits, practices, etc.... she completely changed my entire life.

My habits and practices and preferences.... I completely changed her life.

I can no longer ignore her, and need to take into account her needs, and desires. And the same for her, towards me.

This dynamic is a potent thing.

But we have to agree with each other for it to work.

God says, can two walk together unless they are in agreement?

If you're going one way, and God is going another, do you really think that you are going to hook up with him?

We're doing this on his terms, not ours.

I have not made a choice I am unconvinced by the evidence. Try to believe something that you do not believe is true, you can't.

Then it sounds to me like you have chosen the path you want to go, and it's not the path God has called us to.

Jesus said that if you want to be his disciple, you must deny yourself daily, pick up your cross and follow him.

FWIW, that night in June 1977, I was introduced by God to him. I did not follow right away. I knew God was real but I did not take the time right away to learn about Jesus.
I meandered through the next few months doing the same old stupid things I did before.
I came to a certain point where I had to choose to lose my old ways, and choose his ways.
Once I reached that point, I told God--

Ok. I have no idea how this works but here I am.

I've spent the past 42+ years learning how this works. And you know something....
God has been showing himself real to me in ways that are both simple and powerful.
I could easily have complained that God didn't do what I was told he would, I I could have taken the time to learn what he said.

Jesus said that there are people who would decide they didn't like what he said, and leave.

That is indeed their prerogative. Not a lot of people like it.

No, God does and He will send me to eternal torture for not believing from the scant evidence He provides. God can convince me He exists and then give me the choice to follow him or not. So He will be the one not giving me enough evidence for belief and then throwing me in hell for not believing. And you ask why I think the God as described in the bible is immoral. This is just one of many reasons.

God will give you exactly what you want.

If you don't want to follow Jesus, you will go where people who say no thanks go....

An eternity separated from God.

Aka, hell until the great white throne judgment, and afterwards the lake of fire.

You get to choose.

God says,

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day. I have set before you life and death.

Choose life!

In another place he said,

Why will you die?

So.... I ask you the same question...

Why would you choose death when life is offered freely through Jesus Christ?

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

ISteveB said:
Of course I read the statement of purpose.
Did you not read what I stated?

Apparently you read it, but didn't understand it.

ISteveB said:
It's not possible to argue a relationship between two people.
You can indeed try, but it won't change anything about the relationship.
Biblical christianity is not a philosophy.

It's a relationship between God and the human being, on an individual basis.

If an when you ever succeed in demonstrating that God exists, then we can have such a discussion.

ISteveB said:
I'm sure I do. According to you....

You strike me as an individual who is afraid to take the time to learn to understand and engage with God for yourself.

Of course I'm not. See that picture by the side of the post? It says I'm a veteran. I've been here for years, inviting Christians to correct me and pointing out their mistakes.

ISteveB said:
Oh please. This I have got to read about.
By all means. Develop your opinions.
You'll have to excuse me for finding this one more than slightly amusing.

You see, where I come from, when people make these kinds of statements, whom I believe says that they are in fact talking about themselves.

But they're just the kind of mistakes you introduced yourself with. All I'm doing is showing yourself to you.

ISteveB said:
Go for it.
I await your extensive knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

Well, I've already asked you several questions you seem unable to handle, so it's pretty clear you're out of your depth here on the apologetics forum.

ISteveB said:
Hmmm....

Gee...

Gosh..... so.... you really think that you know what you're talking about.

Ok.

Actually.... I'm simply here to have conversations.

Ah. Getting it at last, are you?
Yes, I do really think I know what I'm talking about. It might come as a surprise to you, but some of us have actually heard of Christianity before. We haven't just been hanging around here waiting for you to come and enlighten us. We've dealt with Christian saviours before. And I must say, we've seen more impressive ones than you.

ISteveB said:
People who don't want to know God or place their trust in Jesus, I get to watch them embarrass themselves, and work through trying not to laugh my derriere off. I'll admit that at times, it can get really difficult to keep a strong demeanor when it happens. But I do however learn that my job is to simply focus on the conversation and praying for them.

Well, you've just demonstrated that you have no idea at all what your job here is. You do have a certain entertainment value, but if you're just here to try to lead us to Jesus, you're kind of wasting our time.

Again: this is an apologetics forum. It's not a place for you to "have discussions" or "build a relationship." It's a place for you to respond to challenges to the Christian faith with rational arguments. Again, you say you read the Statement of Purpose, which was written by Christians, but you don't seem to have understood it. Perhaps you'd be more happy over here, where nonbelievers are looking for support from believers: Prayer Requests by Non-Christians

If you are going to stick around in Apologetics, please try to be an apologist. Coming in to someone's forum and blatantly disregarding its purpose is not a polite thing to do. Do you get that? Atheist or Christian, we are all asked to keep the rules here.

Clizby WampusCat · Oct 1, 2020

ISteveB said:
I don't think that I am questioning the sincerity of what you now believe.

I am asking questions about what you say you once believed.

This really isn't that difficult an idea.

God has explicitly stated that he will give us the wherewithal to know him.

He's further stated that he will make himself known to us when we seek him with a whole heart.

This is akin to the idea that I give you an address and time to meet me.

If you're serious about meeting me, you will show up at the prescribed time and place.

If not, but you want to give the appearance of sincerity, you'll go all over the place, to every location except where I gave you instructions for. You may even do it at the time I stated.
This will give you the wherewithal to claim-- hey, I went looking for you at the time you said, but I couldn't find you.

I can work through the process pretty simply by asking too-- did you go to this location?

You can toy with me, and respond using vague words about it, giving the impression to everyone who is listening that you were in the area, without actually stating that you came to the specific location.

As eternity is the issue here, you can toy with it, and when you die, you'll learn the hard way how deeply you screwed yourself.

Or.... you can take God seriously and do what he says is necessary to know him.

God is not looking for sincerity.
He's looking for you to take him seriously. And yes. There is a difference between the two.

Jesus made it really simple.
If you keep his teachings, you will show him that you love him and you will be loved by God and both God and Jesus will come make their home with you. John 14:20-24.

This is as unmistakable as it gets.

I've been married to my wife for 30 years now. If I ever had any questions about her reality, they were banished when we began living under the same roof with each other.
Her habits, practices, etc.... she completely changed my entire life.

My habits and practices and preferences.... I completely changed her life.

I can no longer ignore her, and need to take into account her needs, and desires. And the same for her, towards me.

This dynamic is a potent thing.

But we have to agree with each other for it to work.

God says, can two walk together unless they are in agreement?

If you're going one way, and God is going another, do you really think that you are going to hook up with him?

We're doing this on his terms, not ours.

Then it sounds to me like you have chosen the path you want to go, and it's not the path God has called us to.

Jesus said that if you want to be his disciple, you must deny yourself daily, pick up your cross and follow him.

FWIW, that night in June 1977, I was introduced by God to him. I did not follow right away. I knew God was real but I did not take the time right away to learn about Jesus.
I meandered through the next few months doing the same old stupid things I did before.
I came to a certain point where I had to choose to lose my old ways, and choose his ways.
Once I reached that point, I told God--

Ok. I have no idea how this works but here I am.

I've spent the past 42+ years learning how this works. And you know something....
God has been showing himself real to me in ways that are both simple and powerful.
I could easily have complained that God didn't do what I was told he would, I I could have taken the time to learn what he said.

Jesus said that there are people who would decide they didn't like what he said, and leave.

That is indeed their prerogative. Not a lot of people like it.

So I responded and answered these same claims and questions in post 68. When I did you just responded in less than 3 minutes telling me I just don't want to know. If you want a conversation go back to post #68 and respond to that one. Why should I spend any more time responding to this post if you will just dismiss it.

God will give you exactly what you want.

If you don't want to follow Jesus, you will go where people who say no thanks go....

An eternity separated from God.

Aka, hell until the great white throne judgment, and afterwards the lake of fire.

You get to choose.

God says,

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day. I have set before you life and death.

Choose life!

In another place he said,

Why will you die?

More christian threats. God is telling me then that He won't convince me yet will send me to hell if I can't believe. Or will just faking it and lying to god get me to heaven?

So.... I ask you the same question...

Why would you choose death when life is offered freely through Jesus Christ?

Why do you choose death when life is offered through Allah?

ISteveB · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Apparently you read it, but didn't understand it.

Ironic..... The words strung together in a complete sentence, and then a series of sentences strung together in a coherent paragraph..... seemed pretty understandable to me.

If an when you ever succeed in demonstrating that God exists, then we can have such a discussion.

It's a pity you never understood that god demonstrates himself to all who seek him with a whole heart.

This failure to understand is why you never met him, and instead think that your ignorance is somehow a superior position.

Of course I'm not. See that picture by the side of the post? It says I'm a veteran. I've been here for years, inviting Christians to correct me and pointing out their mistakes.

A veteran of what?
This forum or of military service?
I may a newcomer to this forum, but I've been talking with people about Jesus, and the bible since the late 90's. I began a focused and directed series of discussions with atheists and agnostics in October 2003.
So..... telling me your a veteran means nothing unless you can tell me what you're a veteran of.

But they're just the kind of mistakes you introduced yourself with. All I'm doing is showing yourself to you.

I'm not really concerned that you think truth is a mistake. I've stated truth. It's entirely on you how you'll handle the truth.
It's the same with all of us. We all have to deal with the truth and then decide how we'll respond to it.

Well, I've already asked you several questions you seem unable to handle, so it's pretty clear you're out of your depth here on the apologetics forum.

That's generally the excuse offered up by people who think that a relationship can be turned into an argument, and then won, as though it was a wrestling match.

If you want to argue, I'll provide you with a series of books to read, and then you can argue with the authors. Most of them are still alive. Although, from what I've observed, their responses will tell you that it's up to you to decide your own response to the truth.
Jesus made it really clear---
If anyone WANTS to be my disciple, let them deny themselves daily, pick up their cross and follow me.

So..... you either want to know, or you don't. If you don't want to follow Jesus, being forced to acknowledge that there is a God who exists won't do you a lick of good. The bible says--- You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

It's not enough to acknowledge that God exists. We must place our faith in Jesus for it to make a difference.
So, you see.... you fail to grasp the simplicity of the issue here.
I don't need to convince you of anything.
According to 1 Peter 3:15, I simply need to present a reason for why I believe God, and Jesus.
Which I did.

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

1 Peter 3 :: New King James Version (NKJV)

It's a curious thing how the greek works. IT says in the greek-- to give an answer. A reason why you believe.
This has nothing to do with an extensive, detailed, academic argument.
It starts with something as simple as--- I realized I needed a savior, so I believed God's promise, all the way up to extensive, detailed reasons.

So, I reiterate---- knowing God, as he describes is what he's making possible in the Jeremiah 24:7 passage, and as Jesus describes in John 17:3---- this is a relational dynamic.
YHVH will give you a heart to know him.
Eternal life consists of knowing YHVH and Jesus Christ whom YHVH sent.
It's a relationship.

Ah. Getting it at last, are you?
Yes, I do really think I know what I'm talking about. It might come as a surprise to you, but some of us have actually heard of Christianity before. We haven't just been hanging around here waiting for you to come and enlighten us. We've dealt with Christian saviours before. And I must say, we've seen more impressive ones than you.

rotflmto.....
I got it decades ago.
If you'd heard of it before, I find myself wondering--- why are you not following Jesus?
And if you have no interest in following Jesus, why are you throwing what life you have remaining away trying to argue with strangers about matters which are beyond argumentation?

And as astonishing as it may appear to you--- I never thought you were waiting for me.
Like so may others, I'm simply passing through. Jesus said we're to deliver the message and move on. If they don't want to listen to you, wipe the dust off your feet as a testimony against them, and keep going.

So..... if you don't like the truth, don't want to deal with the truth, and would rather act all pompous, like some kind of special somebody, a veteran, as you call it..... then just say so.

Well, you've just demonstrated that you have no idea at all what your job here is. You do have a certain entertainment value, but if you're just here to try to lead us to Jesus, you're kind of wasting our time.

hmm..... lol.....
Considering that I've been at this job for a number of decades now, by all means.... tell me.
What is my job here?
Do you know what your state of being is here?
Because your state of being is far more important than what you think my job is.

Again: this is an apologetics forum. It's not a place for you to "have discussions" or "build a relationship." It's a place for you to respond to challenges to the Christian faith with rational arguments. Again, you say you read the Statement of Purpose, which was written by Christians, but you don't seem to have understood it. Perhaps you'd be more happy over here, where nonbelievers are looking for support from believers: Prayer Requests by Non-Christians

Ironically, the statement of purpose actually states 1 Peter 3:15.
It's pretty clear---- to give a reason for why you believe.

And I am, and have.

If you are going to stick around in Apologetics, please try to be an apologist. Coming in to someone's forum and blatantly disregarding its purpose is not a polite thing to do. Do you get that? Atheist or Christian, we are all asked to keep the rules here.

An apologist. hmmm....

Ok. Why don't you provide a definition for what YOU think an apologist is, and the job description of the apologist. I know what the bible says the job is. So..... you obviously think you know better than the bible.

And no dictionaries. I have plenty of dictionaries from which I can use the world's definition.

Since you clearly believe that you're the forum's thought police, I want YOUR ideas.

ISteveB · Oct 1, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
So I responded and answered these same claims and questions in post 68. When I did you just responded in less than 3 minutes telling me I just don't want to know. If you want a conversation go back to post #68 and respond to that one. Why should I spend any more time responding to this post if you will just dismiss it.

really? because I let it sit for three days, so you could simmer.

More christian threats. God is telling me then that He won't convince me yet will send me to hell if I can't believe. Or will just faking it and lying to god get me to heaven?

So, warning you of impending danger is a threat?
hmm....
Ok.
have a nice life. Hope that fall you'll take doesn't catch you too far off guard.

Why do you choose death when life is offered through Allah?

Yeah, I don't respond to threats from demons. they've been threatening God's people for millennia.

They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.

I do however pay attention to warnings when they come from YHVH. I know his warnings are for my well-being.

Clizby WampusCat · Oct 1, 2020

ISteveB said:
It's a pity you never understood that god demonstrates himself to all who seek him with a whole heart.

This failure to understand is why you never met him, and instead think that your ignorance is somehow a superior position.

This is the main reason you don't understand what InterestedAtheist or myself is talking about. I was a christian and met all of your criteria for God to reveal himself to me. I am not alone, most atheists I know are atheists because they took their faith seriously and sought after answers and evidence. We know what you say is untrue because we have tried it and it failed. This is the reason your line of reasoning here is not convincing.

for the agnostic.....

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