Three Questions about death - can you answer them logically? Biblically?

Jok said:

Isn’t that a reference to what Abraham saw while Abraham he was still alive, the claim being that Jesus was around when Abraham was living, not that Abraham was watching Jesus’ life?

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Jok said:

You don’t think that Lazareth was dormant for those several days before he was once again embodied?

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Jok said:

But the soul is incoherent unless embodied. Soul is not body however it needs a body, and body is not soul however a healthy human organism/body would be a vegetable if it lacked an emergent soul. Emergence is a miracle. Human consciousness emerges out of a suitable & healthy body. We are told we will have spiritual bodies, not that we will be non-bodily spirits.

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Michael Collum said:

There's no gospel until Jesus Christ.

The old testament didn't have one.

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Michael Collum said:

The old covenant had no hope.

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ewq1938 said:

Scripture presents bodiless souls as very coherent:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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Rachel20 said:

Possibly, but then you have Moses and Elijah seen at the transfiguration. Still, I think the reference to seeing "the Lords day" would more likely refer to his advent as Messiah and makes more sense of Abraham "longing for" this day.



I believe there was a waiting place for the righteous prior to the Lords resurrection, the same one Jesus mentioned about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. I understand most see this as a parable, but scripture nowhere calls it that and I see no textual clues that it is. Unlike parables, it uses actual names of people, etc... I believe this is where Christ was between his death and resurrection and those righteous ones were released at his resurrection, fulfilling Psalm 68:18 in leading captivity captive.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:8-9

... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3:18-19

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6

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RCrihfield said:

I don't understand the assumption. Jesus (God) was incoherent for 3 days? Doesn't Eph say that Jesus preached to souls while in the grave? I need to look at that one again. The rich man died and was buried. And lifted up his eyes being in torment...no pause....very aware of his state.

I guess that is my understanding...our souls are what is ressurected and placed into a new spiritual body.

What about the spirit? Soul and spirit are not the same thing. To my knowledge, the bible is not clear on these questions. That is why I don't get too bent on the details because they aren't really revealed to us.

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BobRyan said:

The question remains ... what words are found there - that the Apostle Paul says we are to use when comforting someone who has lost a loved one?? -- according to the text in the OP?

The issue is logic and reason - I am not asking if people like what Paul said - just asking if they can state what he said we are supposed to be saying in those funeral situations --

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BobRyan said:

It is important in a logical answer to stick with the facts in the texts under discussion.


1. To be clear Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians and not to the entire body of Christ at that time. For instance those in other cities did not receive those same instructions. It is also not stating that one can only use these words and no others, ie it is not limiting but enlightening to those who may attend that do not know and encouraging to those who know but are currently grieving a loss that it is no loss at all in terms of life. Those who live in the Christ do not die but pass from death to life. I do not advocate for soul sleep or other such theology as the Bible clearly demonstrates that to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord. In Ecclesiastes it says that while the body returns to ground from where it came the spirit returns to the Lord from where it came. It is available for us today. However even that was not always the case. Prior to the reformation only certain persons in church leadership had access to the scriptures as it was deemed man could not understand. The meaning is to comfort one another with the words and knowledge that death is not the end of life in Christ. We are not limited to only those words by Paul either. At Christian funerals I have attended these words and indeed the reading of that portion of Scripture are read. I have attended many funerals and have officiated at some both Christian and those who unfortunately died in their sins. The message though is similar in that it is an opportunity to share the Gospel although one cannot comfort with the words of the resurrection the family of those who died in their sins.

2. It is a bit difficult to understand what specifically you are alluding to, the fact that in the resurrection one no longer has a temporal body and that the mortality has put on the immortal is my guess.

3. The physical body returns to the dust it comes from. If you continue to read in 2 Corinthians chapter the answer becomes quite clear regarding this question. If you read related passages regarding the resurrection and the state of the body and the spirit you will discover that we will have a body like Christ had after He resurrected. The mortal will put on immortality. In a moment we will be changed. We have no need of a fleshly body in a spiritual realm.

I am not completely sure I have arrived at what you are searching for as it is clear you have the answer you are looking for.

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Rachel20 said:

But scripture shows they knew of it by the Spirit of Christ "which was in them" -

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:9-12

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Rachel20 said:

They always had hope, from Adam through Noah and on down. Below, Job speaks of his redeemer ( who I personally think was even before Abraham and the old covenant because he never speaks of Abraham or Israel, or even scripture for that matter).

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

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