Are Demons Fallen Angels?

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

venksta said:
It's meaning is shared by other words as well.

Here are more definitions, if it helps to understand:
Definition of CANON

Just like with studying and reading the Bible on your own, if you decide to take a look at the book of Enoch, or others like it, pray to God first, and ask to be lead by the Holy Spirit. He is our teacher.

The book of Enoch contains truth to be found in the Bible. But its also containing fiction. Its not Scripture to be included in the Bible.

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2020

Andrewn said:
How / why did Satan become ruler of this world? Why is he still allowed to roam the earth?

Because God gave Adam dominion of the world, and then Adam turned his back on God when he obeyed Satan and ate from the Tree of Knowledge.
That rebellion against God, and getting thrown out of Eden, granted Satan the freedom to do what he did.

Andrewn · Sep 27, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Because God gave Adam dominion of the world, and then Adam turned his back on God when he obeyed Satan and ate from the Tree of Knowledge.
That rebellion against God, and getting thrown out of Eden, granted Satan the freedom to do what he did.

Sounds like casting ballots where human beings elected Satan to rule over them but he became a tyrant denying their freedom. The Lord Jesus was willing to pay the ransom.

About Isa 14:12-15; Mar 10:18; and Rev 12:7-9; when do you believe the fall of Satan from heaven take place: before creation of the world, after fall of Adam, or after Jesus' birth? Rev seems to suggest the latter while Job seems to suggest that he was still in heaven?

Andrewn · Sep 27, 2020

thecolorsblend said:
I have heard Catholic exorcists report that during exorcisms, some spirits claim to be the souls of the damned. The specific example he cited was an evil spirit he encountered who claimed to be Judas Iscariot. But this exorcist was quick to add "But we're talking about demons, so do you believe everything they tell you?" Because they're known liars.

I read about a Catholic exorcism where demons claimed to only be afraid of the Lady. The exorcist, believing the demons and assuming the Lady is the Virgin Mary, advised the person who is possessed and the attendees to pray to her.

It's a bad idea to listen to demons.

johnlxyz · Sep 27, 2020

April_Rose said:
I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.

I agree wih Andrewn, “it’s a bad idea to listen to demons.”

I liked the post #8 by St_worm2, which had this link about angels and demons.

What does the Bible say about demons? | GotQuestions.org

excerpt:
When he fell, Satan took some of the angels with him—one third of them, according to Revelation 12:4. Jude 6 also mentions angels who sinned. So, biblically, demons are fallen angels who, along with Satan, chose to rebel against God.

-----------

genez in post #60 said:

Then the rebellious angels refused to repent after God started to discipline them. The result was? God called off their receiving a female counterpart as blessing...
…
When they saw Adam and the woman making wonderful love in the Garden? That is when they learned the painful truth as to what was lost because of Satan's rebellion....

Zechariah 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
<2 female fallen angels carrying the ephah?>

IMO, the faithful angels still have relationships between male and female angels. Not in the earthly sense of “marriage” but something holier and much better. There might be some truth to the idea that fallen angels filled with wickedness have lost the heavenly relationship. Possibly unholy music and sex were the main reasons for the fallen angels’ rebellion in heaven. That might be why in the end times, unholy music and sex have been allowed on earth, as a test – to choose between heavenly holiness or h-llish wickedness.

Andrewn · Sep 27, 2020

Shamawh said:
No fallen angels are "malakim" that are disobedient. demons are the departed spirits of the nephillim.

The demons mentioned in the OT are of two classes, the "sehirim" and the "shedim." They're only called angels (or malakim) in the NT.

Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Nothing about demons being spirits of ancient princes / nephilim, either!

SeventyOne · Sep 27, 2020

genez said:
But? Lucifer stirred up trouble because he did not like the way the Lord was running things. Lucifer began a rebellion against the Lord.. And? Then the rebellious angels refused to repent after God started to discipline them. The result was? God called off their receiving a female counterpart as blessing...

That is why angels were sexual and able to reproduce like they did.
.

Do you have a source for this, is this your own guess, or are you implying you know the mind and intentions of God all on your own?

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2020

genez said:
Moses was used of God as the waters of the Red sea parted. Was Moses being God? Or, a man?

As I said before, scripture states that everything Jesus did during his incarnation, was as a man empowered by the Spirit of God, not by his divinity.
Matt12v28But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Likewise Moses, Elijah, and the early church. Everything they did was by the power of the Holy Spirit that dwelled within them.

Not as a man. Denying Himself of His right to the powers of omniscience. He proved it possible in the Incarnation.

Jesus proved his creativity when he did his miracles, but scripture proves they were done entirely by the Holy Spirit within him

The Father can not be that way, for the Father does not have two natures. That is why Jesus can sympathize with us when we are tempted. As God he can not know temptation. Jesus is in the unique position to be filly man and fully God in union....

It simply says all things were created THROUGH him and FOR him. Well? What would make Him different from the Father in that case?

Your original post states that Jesus created everything after his incarnation which is complete nonsense. Jesus always was God's son in eternity past, the creation of the heavens and the earth being established long before he became man living amongst his creation.

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2020

martymonster said:
Church doctrine and scriptural truth, are two different things.

I spend most of my time fighting church doctrines and religious traditions.

If you knew what the heavens actually were, you'd understand what Christ meant by that.

A meaningless statement, devoid of information.

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2020

Andrewn said:
Sounds like casting ballots where human beings elected Satan to rule over them but he became a tyrant denying their freedom. The Lord Jesus was willing to pay the ransom.

About Isa 14:12-15; Mar 10:18; and Rev 12:7-9; when do you believe the fall of Satan from heaven take place: before creation of the world, after fall of Adam, or after Jesus' birth? Rev seems to suggest the latter while Job seems to suggest that he was still in heaven?

Hehe, good question, but I'll pass on that as I'd be guessing.
One thing for sure is he and his demons are very active and have always been so, especially among Christians.

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2020

April_Rose said:
Very good questions but Satan only thinks he's ruler and he tries to convince other people of that being the truth when it isn't. There's only one true King of Heaven and earth and it isn't him.

There is no question that our God reigns on heaven and earth. But dominion of earth was given to Adam, and Adam listened to Satan and rebelled against God. That rebellion entitled Satan to do what he does on earth.

Ever since Adam, man has been turning his back on God, and it is that which grants Satan his power over mankind.

Man will always be subject to Satan's power, until he repents and turns to Christ. Unfortunately, most Christians fall into the childish doctrine that Satan and his demons can't touch Christians. Consequently, when their lives are blighted by Satan's emissaries, they stick their heads in the sand, pretending it just ain't happening, whilst getting their butts well kicked by their worst spiritual enemy.

We are called by God to a life of war, spiritual war against the forces of darkness in this world, and unless cast out, they'll continue treating our bodies as their own dwelling place.

April_Rose · Sep 27, 2020

Andrewn said:
I read about a Catholic exorcism where demons claimed to only be afraid of the Lady. The exorcist, believing the demons and assuming the Lady is the Virgin Mary, advised the person who is possessed and the attendees to pray to her.

It's a bad idea to listen to demons.

I also believe that it's a bad idea to pray to Mary, but I don't have any problems with Catholics disagreeing with me either.

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

johnlxyz said:
-----------

genez in post #60 said:

Zechariah 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
<2 female fallen angels carrying the ephah?>

IMO, the faithful angels still have relationships between male and female angels. Not in the earthly sense of “marriage” but something holier and much better. There might be some truth to the idea that fallen angels filled with wickedness have lost the heavenly relationship. Possibly unholy music and sex were the main reasons for the fallen angels’ rebellion in heaven. That might be why in the end times, unholy music and sex have been allowed on earth, as a test – to choose between heavenly holiness or h-llish wickedness.

Visions are visions. They are usually greatly symbolic. Not to be taken literally. I have seen that tried before. Its nonsense to be interpreted that way. Angels do not have wings like a stork. Very few angels have wings. Its a mark of rank amongst angels. Only the highest angels have wings.

Its says "two women." Not angels in the feminine gender. Please.

In Genesis Six.. Why would the angels take human women if they had their own? Would you prefer a lower life form to your own?

.........................Vines Expository Dictionary.......................................

1angelos

"a messenger" (from angello, "to deliver a message"), sent whether by God or by man or by Satan, "is also used of a guardian or representative in Re. 1:20, cp. Mt. 18:10; Ac. 12:15 (where it is better understood as = 'ghost'), superior to man, Heb. 2:7; Ps. . 8:5, belonging to Heaven, Mt. 24:36; Mr. 12:25, and to God, Lu. 12:8, and engaged in His service, Ps. . 103:20. "Angels" are spirits, Heb. 1:14, i.e., they have not material bodies as men have; they are either human in form, or can assume the human form when necessary, cp. Lu. 24:4, with Lu. 24:23, Ac. 10:3 with Ac. 10:30. "They are called 'holy' in Mr. 8:38, and 'elect,' 1Ti. 5:21, in contrast with some of their original number, Mt. 25:41, who 'sinned,' 2Pe. 2:4, 'left their proper habitation,' Jude. 1:6, oiketerion, a word which occurs again, in the NT, only in 2Co. 5:2.

Angels are always spoken of in the masculine gender, the feminine form of the word does not occur."* [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 229.] Note: Isangelos, "equal to the angels," occurs in Lu. 20:36."

In the Hebrew and Greek the words used for angels are always in the masculine gender. Never female, nor neuter.

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Your original post states that Jesus created everything after his incarnation which is complete nonsense. Jesus always was God's son in eternity past, the creation of the heavens and the earth being established long before he became man living amongst his creation.

Sorry, I did not say that. What I did say? During the Incarnation was revealed to us that the ability of the Lord God to make Himself function as a man was an ability He possesses. And? Because He was able to do that? He can do that any time He wishes.

Therefore, before creation He had this ability. And, in order for everything that was to be created can be related to and perceived by men? All that was created was through Him and created also for all men to know and relate to. Otherwise? God transcends human capacity to perceive. So when all things were created through him, and for him, all that was created was limited to what can be comperhended and perceived by men... Men, whom He also created in His image!

Sorry if you saw me saying He created all things after the Incarnation. If I did? I would be dumb to even try to say that. Not what I said.

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

SeventyOne said:
Do you have a source for this, is this your own guess, or are you implying you know the mind and intentions of God all on your own?

How do you know anything?

If anyone truly has insight its NEVER all on your own. And, Paul said that insight comes from gained knowledge. Must be sound doctrine, or the Holy Spirit can not point out things to a believer. And, if anyone had insight in this day and age it would be mocked. Would it not? Some apostasy all around us only lends to the idea that no one could possibly be knowing what they talk about. That we are all equally guessing and assuming. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The proud will never know.

But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to
the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)

Not only opposes the proud. The Greek indicates that God makes war against proud believers. They become his enemy. For they will oppose what He wishes to make known to the body of Christ.

The reason I say this. God wants us to know and understand the root cause for homosexuality. Genesis Six reveals where it all began. Angels denied women had to resort to their own creative means to provide pseudo females... Drag queens began with rebellious angels.

Now think about that. And, mock if you wish. Try totally misunderstanding something I said as a distraction maybe? The first homosexuals were rebellious angels who realized they were being denied females by God.

God's angels? They receive grace. Celibacy is by grace.

In Christ......!

SeventyOne · Sep 27, 2020

genez said:
How do you know anything?

If anyone truly has insight its NEVER all on your own. And, Paul said that insight comes from gained knowledge. Must be sound doctrine, or the Holy Spirit can not point out things to a believer. And, if anyone had insight in this day and age it would be mocked. Would it not? Some apostasy all around us only lends to the idea that no one could possibly be knowing what they talk about. That we are all equally guessing and assuming. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The proud will never know.

But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to
the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)

Not only opposes the proud. The Greek indicates that God makes war against proud believers. They become his enemy. For they will oppose what He wishes to make known to the body of Christ.

The reason I say this. God wants us to know and understand the root cause for homosexuality. Genesis Six reveals where it all began. Angels denied women had to resort to their own creative means to provide pseudo females... Drag queens began with rebellious angels.

Now think about that. And, mock if you wish. Try totally misunderstanding something I said as a distraction maybe? The first homosexuals were rebellious angels who realized they were being denied females by God.

God's angels? They receive grace. Celibacy is by grace.

In Christ......!

I didn't mock anything. I was asking the source for your assertion. Now I know it's your opinion. You could have just stated it as so and saved a bunch of words and a false accusation.

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

SeventyOne said:
I didn't mock anything. I was asking the source for your assertion. Now I know it's your opinion. You could have just stated it as so and saved a bunch of words and a false accusation.

Sir... its very hard not to think you're mocking when you always end with this...

Its a disconnect with what you just might have said... There is a place for it.

GenemZ · Sep 27, 2020

SeventyOne said:
Do you have a source for this, is this your own guess, or are you implying you know the mind and intentions of God all on your own?

Have you ever studied and gained a good amount of knowledge on a matter, that insight connected all the dots for a solution?

Insight is suppose to eventually happen in the spiritual life if one is walking in the Spirit and is fortunate to have secured sound teachings.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Phlpns 1:9

One who is yet needing to learn more?... Who assumes he has all he needs to know? .. will assume an insight is only a mere opinion of another.

If all we think are "opinions?" There is no truth to share. All we can do is cut and paste from some source where we have not done our own thinking.

If the Spirit is filling ten people in a crowd of a thousand? Ten people will be able to understand and agree while the rest push it aside. Its hurts to watch take place. When it happens its called... "suffering for righteousness sake."

But? That's just my opinion.

Andrewn · Sep 27, 2020

Francis Drake said:
when he became a man, he laid down his Divine power. There were absolutely no miracles by Jesus till he was filled with the Holy Spirit at his baptism by John. After that, all miracles and deliverances were done by the power of the Holy Spirit, not his own divinity.

This is not an orthodox view. What makes you think that Christ completely laid down his own Divinity?

SeventyOne · Sep 27, 2020

genez said:
Sir... its very hard not to think you're mocking when you always end with this...

Its a disconnect with what you just might have said... There is a place for it.

That's my signature. It's at the end of all of my posts. It has nothing to do with you personally.

Are Demons Fallen Angels?

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