Grapes in the Early Spring

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

100,000 people die each year from alcohol related reasons. This is the fruits of alcohol.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
Do you know bad drunks at least? That can certainly turn us off. Especially family. In any case, I do commend you. I'm not a drinker either, so I don't want to sound like I'm promoting it for myself or anything. I've just come to realize that there are good people who can handle it well, and I don't want to judge them.

edit: Interestingly, my own denomination listed here (Nazarene) was and is one of the more "teetotaling" groups and was instrumental in the early Temperance movement. They meant well, but I think history has shown that they went too far as well (i.e. Prohibition).

Again, my decision was primarily based on what Scripture says. I provided Scripture on alcoholic beverages and there is a good number of verses that speak against them. We also can examine the fruits of alcohol. Does drinking lead to turning a person's life around for the better or for the worse? Life teaches us that alcohol can be habit forming and can lead to all kinds of problems. These are just the facts and it has nothing to do with emotional bias or preferences.

Pathfinder627 · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said we can know a tree by its fruit. If alcoholic beverages brings forth good fruit in people's lives, then we would see more good come from such a thing instead of more bad. In my study of alcoholic beverages, I believe they do more harm than good.

Also, while alcohol can be used for short term helpful medical benefits like relieving pain, killing germs, and helps to prevent coronary artery disease, etc. alcohol's bad effects far outweigh any truly good benefits that it can give you through constant use or abuse. For one, alcohol is habit forming and addictive. This can lead to wanting to drink more and then drunkenness. Moderately strong alcohol drinks do not have nutrition labels on them. Why? Because they offer no nutrition because it is technically a poison or drug that your immune system has to fight off. I say it is a poison because...

"the long-term use of alcohol is capable of damaging nearly every organ and system in the body. Health effects associated with alcohol intake in large amounts include an increased risk of alcoholism, malnutrition, chronic pancreatitis, alcoholic liver disease, and cancer. In addition, damage to the central nervous system and peripheral nervous system can occur from chronic alcohol abuse."

Source:
Long-term effects of alcohol consumption - Wikipedia

For if you put alcohol in a glass and then put a dirty penny in it, the alcohol cleans the penny. If you put a piece of meat in there, it dries out the meat. Now, the alcohol does not know the difference between being inside the body vs. being outside of the body. It seeks to destroy. It's a poison or drug that will damage your body if you are not careful of your intake of it.

I never thought about nutrition labels, but it's definitely worth considering. Strange now that I think about it. I'll still maintain a position of Temperance however, and not prohibition. Although it's practically prohibition for my own self, I suppose. I just think there's probably some room for it elsewhere (and there definitely were cases in the past where the wine was actually safer than the water). Since you make room for health, maybe we're not entirely in disagreement.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Also, folks need to think. If Jesus made alcoholic wine at the Wedding of Cana, and they were already “well drunk” then making more intoxicating wine would have definitely made them drunk. But Scripture says that drunkenness is the kind of sin whereby if one commits it (and does not repent), they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Pathfinder627 · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, my decision was primarily based on what Scripture says. I provided Scripture on alcoholic beverages and there is a good number of verses that speak against them. We also can examine the fruits of alcohol. Does drinking lead to turning a person's life around for the better or for the worse? Life teaches us that alcohol can be habit forming and can lead to all kinds of problems. These are just the facts and it has nothing to do with emotional bias or preferences.

There are definitely warnings throughout scripture about drunkenness, but there are others where it isn't treated so harshly, and in fact, casually. It's the same thing with gluttony. I think you know this? Anyone named Bible Highlighter doesn't need me to point that out.

Pathfinder627 · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, folks need to think. If Jesus made alcoholic wine at the Wedding of Cana, and they were already “well drunk” then making more intoxicating wine would have definitely made them drunk. But Scripture says that drunkenness is the kind of sin whereby if one commits it (and does not repent), they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Jewish weddings last for days. It wasn't like they were doing a one sitting type of affair of drunkenness. The problem with the wedding in Cana is that the host didn't prepare for a normal duration of a wedding apparently. Not that they were necessarily already drunk at the very moment that Mary made her request.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
I never thought about nutrition labels,

Most wines and or alcoholic beverages do not have nutrition labels on them because there is no nutrition within them because your immune has to take nutrients already in your body to fight and battle against the poison.

You said:
but it's definitely worth considering. Strange now that I think about it. I'll still maintain a position of Temperance however, and not prohibition. Although it's practically prohibition for my own self, I suppose. I just think there's probably some room for it elsewhere (and there definitely were cases in the past where the wine was actually safer than the water). Since you make room for health, maybe we're not entirely in disagreement.

I used to hold to the view that a Christian could drink socially as long as they did not do so to get intoxicated. But I am not so sure about that position anymore. Most Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved. So the whole drunkenness on occasion thing is not an issue for them. I know a believer can definitely drink only to resolve a rare medical issue (like to relieve pain if their leg was cut badly or to drink a little wine for the infirmities in their stomach).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
Jewish weddings last for days. It wasn't like they were doing a one sitting type of affair of drunkenness. The problem with the wedding in Cana is that the host didn't prepare for a normal duration of a wedding apparently. Not that they were necessarily already drunk at the very moment that Mary made her request.

Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
There are definitely warnings throughout scripture about drunkenness, but there are others where it isn't treated so harshly, and in fact, casually. It's the same thing with gluttony. I think you know this? Anyone named Bible Highlighter doesn't need me to point that out.

The Bible commands us to be sober minded in several places. See my previous post to you. If one is drinking, they are less sober minded than before. Our goal as a believer is to obey God's Word in what it says.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Our culture worships alcohol and or places it up on a pedestal as this great thing when in reality it does more harm than good.

Pathfinder627 · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least).

The literal translation isn't "well drunk" apparently, but "drunk freely". As in, they kind of went at the bottles without reservation... before the days of the entire wedding was over with. This set the host in a panic - because the wedding had to keep going on. For a host to shut off a party early was bad news and an embarrassment. Bad hospitality in general was a big no-no. You're advocating that everyone was drunk and he should have shut down the party anyways, but it's more about how he didn't have enough for the length of the Wedding. Shutting it off would have been disastrous. This is why Mary begged Jesus to begin with, to help save the host's face.

Scott Husted · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
100,000 people die each year from alcohol related reasons. This is the fruits of alcohol.

Time is the #1 killer ... alcohol like mankind's soul is neither good or bad ...

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Yes, archaic Greek is a dead language; but we have enough writings preserved from that time; that linguists can interpret the writings. They don't need a time machine.

I tried studying Brazilian Portuguese from a book once so as to impress my wife when we were dating. The problem is that my wife corrected me on what I learned in the book. She said well in this region they would not say that, etc.; So the problem is not having an apostle Paul around to check our Greek to see if it is correct. The nuances of learning a language correctly AFTER the language is dead is problematic at best. Nobody grew up on that culture and spoke and wrote that language in everyday use. There can be many missing things that recent linguists could have missed in the use of grammar, and slang (or metaphor). So I disagree. Folks love to go to the original languages and think they know them because they do not want to be under God's preserved Word for today that they can understand in their own language if they study to show themselves approved unto God.

You said:
If Elohim had intervened to preserve his word in the KJV; why doesn't the KJV conform to the Critical Text? Do you realize that the KJV was written in archaic English? If archaic Greek is a dead language; why isn't archaic English? Do you have a time machine?

Early Modern English can be understood if I spoke to a classroom. This cannot be done with Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek. Also, one can simply do a dictionary word study that is not a religious biased dictionary in order to define certain words that are not in common use today. Words cannot be changed in the English without raising any alarm bells. But if one wanted to change Biblical Greek, nobody would be the wiser because nobody speaks or writes that language anymore (like the apostle Paul did). With the 1600's English, it's still pretty recent enough and close enough to our own language whereby one cannot alter it without a person suspecting something because the difficult words in the 1600's English can be defined in an unbiased nonreligious dictionary.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Scott Husted said:
Time is the #1 killer ... alcohol like mankind's soul is neither good or bad ...

The Bible disagrees with you.

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
The literal translation isn't "well drunk" apparently, but "drunk freely". As in, they kind of went at the bottles without reservation... before the days of the entire wedding was over with. This set the host in a panic - because the wedding had to keep going on. For a host to shut off a party early was bad news and an embarrassment. Bad hospitality in general was a big no-no. You're advocating that everyone was drunk and he should have shut down the party anyways, but it's more about how he didn't have enough for the length of the Wedding. Shutting it off would have been disastrous. This is why Mary begged Jesus to begin with, to help save the host's face.

We can just make the original languages say whatever we want them to say because nobody really speaks these languages anymore. None would be the wiser if we change the original languages to say something different because there is not an apostle Paul around to correct us on our Greek. This is the problem with not accepting the truth that God preserved His Word in the English language today. This is why I just read my KJB and believe it. I am not seeking to make my Bible say something I want it to say.

Scott Husted · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible disagrees with you.

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

The scriptures agree that the common factor that makes alcohol good or evil is mankind to which without alcohol becomes inert.

Pathfinder627 · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
We can just make the original languages say whatever we want them to say because nobody really speaks these languages anymore. None would be the wiser if we change the original languages to say something different because there is not an apostle Paul around to correct us on our Greek. This is the problem with not accepting the truth that God preserved His Word in the English language today. This is why I just read my KJB and believe it. I am not seeking to make my Bible say something I want it to say.

It's not that complicated. Linguists know the roots of many words, if not the entire grammar of a time period. The latter is where the trickiness is: the usage. Not necessarily root definitions, except in a few cases. But if you want to hold on to the KJV, be my guest. It can still be read as a story of hospitality first and foremost. Not a lesson on drinking.

Secondly, the big pink elephant in the room about scripture is that wine or strong drink (beer) wasn't forbidden in the Torah. The Lord made rules regarding everything under the sun and what was ritually pure or not, but he left wine out. Why is that? Because it was never forbidden to begin with. Drunkenness, however, is. And of course it is! I think we all agree on that.

Der Alte · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context as in this post.
John 2 does not say "the people at the wedding were 'well drunk.'"
Someone drinking 1-2 glasses of wine does not make them not sober.
Drinking 1-2 glasses of wine is not "drunkenness."
One of my professors in seminary a Baptist talked about how in his home church in Texas in the first decade of the 20th century the women deacons made the communion wine.
I have served in churches that use alcohol content wine for the Lord's supper. No drunkenness.

Der Alte · Sep 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
We can just make the original languages say whatever we want them to say because nobody really speaks these languages anymore. None would be the wiser if we change the original languages to say something different because there is not an apostle Paul around to correct us on our Greek. This is the problem with not accepting the truth that God preserved His Word in the English language today. This is why I just read my KJB and believe it. I am not seeking to make my Bible say something I want it to say.

Nonsense! You keep making this claim but you do not provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence.
Neither Greek nor Hebrew has ever been a dead language. Greek has always been the language of Greece. And Hebrew has always been the language of the Jews.
Although the current daily spoken language may differ both the Jews and the Greeks KNOW the meaning of the words in scripture.

miamited · Sep 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua passed the cup at the last supper. That was in the early Spring. The winter barley had recently ripened. Has anyone here ever seen ripe grapes in the early Spring?

Was the wine in that cup fermented, or unfermented?

Hi hark,

Well, I chose 'unfermented', although I'm not sure why it would be an issue unless one were trying to make some point that if Jesus ever drank fermented wine he would then be a common sinner.

Here are my reasons. God's command to John the Baptist's father, Zechariah, was that he would never take fermented drink. I rather imagine that God's Son lived under the same prohibition, but there is no Scriptural evidence to back that up. Yes, while Jesus did create from clean water fermented wine, there is no evidence that Jesus partook of any of it.

Finally, this idea that one could only drink non-fermented grape juice only shortly after the harvest, isn't really accurate. A dear pastor friend of mine did a message on it several years ago. He held a Doctorate in Theology and was extremely well learned in the Scriptures. In his message he explained that it was a fairly common practice in that day, after the harvest had come in, to crush the grapes and then allow the juice to thicken and dry. Then the paste, or one could leave it as the thick syrup, would be carried around and reconstituted when needing a drink. The drying, according to my pastor, allowed the grape 'flavoring' to be carried along on journeys without the added weight of any liquid.

Here is some evidence that unfermented grape juice not only could have been available long after the harvest, but throughout the entire year. It also explains that this practice seemed to be very common as it offers some historical writings that mention the process.

What are the facts about fermented drinks in the Bible? | Bibleinfo.com

So, whether one wants to believe that Jesus ever drank fermented drink is strictly up to the individual to decide. There is no Scriptural support that can be offered as 'proof' that he ever did.

God bless,
Ted

Grapes in the Early Spring

The wine was...

Fermented

Unfermented

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Active Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Active Member

Active Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Active Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Ted

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