Grapes in the Early Spring

HARK! said:

My Pastor was asked to perform a wedding for a couple of whom neither had ever attended our church. He agreed to marry them. he knew that I had time on my hands; so he asked me if I would come down to the church, and help out on that day. I did. I was the only other member of our church who was there. After the ceremony, my pastor was invited to the reception. He asked if I could come along. They agreed; so my Pastor drove us over there. At the reception the servers started passing out very small glasses of champagne. The server offered a glass to my pastor first. He declined. I knew that my Pastor drank wine; and he knew that I drank wine. The server asked me next. I declined. The server was still there; when my Pastor quickly interjected, "if you want some champagne; have some champagne." I declined again; and the server left. Then I told my Pastor, "I didn't feel comfortable having any, if you weren't; but is seems rude to turn away champagne at a wedding." He said again that if I wanted some; that I should have had some. He said that anyone else can have a glass of wine; and they simply had a glass of wine; but if a Pastor has a glass of wine; people start talking; and all of a sudden the Pastor is a drunk. I told him that since I was there representing the church; that it was probably best that I didn't have any either.

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You did exactly what Christ and Paul told us to do!

Your pastor is a wise man and no doubt has read Paul's example of basically the same thing, avoiding laying a stumbling block.

Scott Husted said:

This had more to do with a marriage then whether people were drunk at it, just as the wine has more to do with blood then the wine the water was turned into. The scenario that played itself out including the events that led him to this all fall under the heading of the purpose God purposed in himself.

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“Why do you have these?” asked the king. Ziba replied, “The donkeys are for the king’s household to ride, the bread and summer fruit are for the young men to eat, and the wine is to refresh those who become weary in the wilderness.”

three feasts

honey badger said:

“Why do you have these?” asked the king. Ziba replied, “The donkeys are for the king’s household to ride, the bread and summer fruit are for the young men to eat, and the wine is to refresh those who become weary in the wilderness.”

three feasts

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I love the picture of wine in this ...

Minister Monardo said:

Genesis 5:29. And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning
our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.

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Revelation 19:10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See you do it not:
I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:
for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.

And he called his name “Noah”
Noach [H5146]<nuach [H5117, H5118]=rest
Genesis 8:4. Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth
day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat.

Isaiah 11:2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him…

Isaiah 14:3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give you rest
from your sorrow, and from your fear, and from the hard bondage.

2 Chronicles 6:41. Now therefore arise, O Lord God, into your resting place, you and
the ark of your strength: let your priests, O Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let
your saints rejoice in goodness.

Esther 9:
16 But the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood
for their lives, and had rest from their enemies, and slew of their foes seventy and five thousand,
but they laid not their hands on the prey,
17 On the thirteenth day of the month Adar; and on the fourteenth day of the same rested, and
made it a day of feasting and gladness.
18 But the Jews that were at Shushan assembled together on the thirteenth day thereof, and on
the fourteenth thereof; and on the fifteenth day of the same they rested, and made it a day of
feasting and gladness.

“Shall comfort us”
Nacham [H5162]=comfort

Isaiah 12:1. And on that day you shall say, O Lord, I will praise you; though you were angry
with me, your anger is turned away, and you comfort me.

Isaiah 40:1. Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

Isaiah 49:13. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains:
for the Lord has comforted his people, and will have mercy upon His afflicted.

Psalm 71:21. You shall increase my greatness, and comfort me on every side.

Scott Husted said:

I love the picture of wine in this ...

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i like the picture of Passover ...

Minister Monardo said:

Revelation 19:10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See you do it not:
I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:
for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.

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1 Corinthians 10:16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of
the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Matthew 26:
27 And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it;
28 For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I
drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in
My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Without the baptism at the Jordan there would have been no temptation in the wilderness and without the temptation in the wilderness there would have been no coming into the land in power and without coming into the land with power there would have been no call to come to a marriage feast ... though this is but a small part of the symbolism found in what played before Jesus at this feast after the words "woman what have I to do with the ...

Scott Husted said:

Without the baptism at the Jordan there would have been no temptation in the wilderness and without the temptation in the wilderness there would have been no coming into the land in power and without coming into the land with power there would have been no call to come to a marriage feast ... though this is but a small part of the symbolism found in what played before Jesus at this feast after the words "woman what have I to do with the ...

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Once someone receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, there can be only One Truth.[regarding family]
Matthew 12:50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven,
the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Fermentation was considered a good thing in the past (it was safer than some of the water available). Modern people need to get over it and stop anachronizing their own conception of alcohol on to everyone else in history.

Pathfinder627 said:

Fermentation was considered a good thing in the past (it was safer than some of the water available). Modern people need to get over it and stop anachronizing their own conception of alcohol on to everyone else in history.

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Not what is in the cup that matters, but how one handles (faithfully?) the cup. It is not
what is in the cup, but the spirit in which one drinks.

1 Corinthians 10:21. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Corinthians 15:33. Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”

Matthew 10:42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water
only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mark 9:41. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you belong
to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Luke 8:
16 No man, when he has lit a candle, covers it with a vessel, or puts it under a bed; but sets it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither anything hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18 Take heed therefore how you hear: for whosoever has, to him shall be given; and whosoever has not, from him shall be taken even that which he seems to have.

HARK! said:

Wine is no less fruit of the vine than grape juice or jelly. As soon as you crush a grape, enzymes quickly begin to change chemical structure. If you cook a fish; you've changed it's chemical structure; but it's still a fish.

The Nazarite Vow requires abstaining from all fruit of the vine, including wine.

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Not sure how you understand what happens when an alcoholic drink has gone through the fermentation process. The yeast eats the sugars in the grapes and it poops out alcohol. While there may be remnant of the juice of the grape, it's molecular structure has changed to an extent whereby it would not make any sense any longer to call it “the fruit of the vine.”

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle at Cana & the Lord's Supper Drink Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

If Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine or used such a beverage in the Lord's supper.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Conclusion:
Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content (Thus the Lord's supper beverage was non-intoxicating). Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

Bible Highlighter said:

Try researching history of ancient ways of storing grape juice.

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HARK! said:

Do you have any solid evidence, from a scientific source, to present for us?

See: Burden of Proof

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I am talking about what was recorded in history.
Not sure what they would have to gain by lying about their methods.
If you don't think their methods worked, then talk to a wine making expert.

Anyways, it is recorded in the Roman world of New Testament times, the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. Pliny, for example, says that "wines are most beneficial (utilissimum) when all their potency has been removed by the strainer." Similarly, Plutarch points out that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it "neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions" because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering.Referring to some of the same ancient authors, Barnes says: "Pliny, Plutarch and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine which was harmless or innocent—poculis vini innocentis.

In addition, Some Rabbins have even ascribed the downfall of Israel to wine. An example of disapproval is the statement, often repeated with minor variations by different rabbis, which says: "When wine enters into the system of a person, out goes sense, wherever there is wine there is no understanding."This awareness of the harmful effect of alcoholic wine explains why some rabbis recommended the use of boiled wine. Speaking of the latter, the Mishna says: "Rabbi Yehuda permits it [boiled wine as heave-offering], because it improves it [its quality]." "Such a wine," notes Kitto’s Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, "was esteemed [among the Jews] the richest and best wine." Elsewhere the Talmud indicates that drinking was forbidden to the accompaniment of musical instruments in festive occasions such as weddings (Sotah 48a; also Mishna Sotah 9,11).

Not everyone who drinks wine is a devil. Those who think so are probably the worst drunks themselves and just projecting. I think it's very wise for them in particular to stay away from it. There are nasty company under even the smallest amount of alcohol. But their weakness is not everyone else's burden. There have been godly men who had a sip here and there. Not just in biblical times, or medieval times, but even recently. I know Spurgeon and CS Lewis, for example, were known to like a little drink and a cigar from time to time. I'd say anyone who would judge those two men as devils better look at his own real sin: PRIDE.

HARK! said:

Do you have any solid evidence, from a scientific source, to present for us?

See: Burden of Proof

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A Christian speaks against alcohol and explains how the biblical words for wine were used to refer to nonalcoholic, as well as alcoholic wine. A scholar replies, “But it was impossible to keep wine from fermenting in the ancient world. No one could do this until Louis Pasteur and Welch’s in the late 1800s.”

He adds for good measure, “The Passover wine had to be fermented because it was in the Spring, long after the Fall grape harvest.” That seems an unanswerable argument.

Those who use this argument think they are rightly interpreting Scripture. Instead, they are taking their own ignorance and projecting it onto the Bible and the ancient world. To argue that the ancients could not preserve un-intoxicating wine is wrong factually, scientifically, and historically. Actually, fermented wine was more difficult to make and preserve, than unfermented wine.

Unfermented wine could easily be preserved without electricity, refrigeration, or pasteurization.

To learn more, check out this article here:

GULF COAST PASTOR: Preserving Unfermented Wine in Bible Times


Source:
This post was quoted from the article (provided in the link above).

Pathfinder627 said:

Not everyone who drinks wine is a devil. Those who think so are probably the worst drunks themselves and just projecting. I think it's very wise for them in particular to stay away from it. There are nasty company under even the smallest amount of alcohol. But their weakness is not everyone else's burden. There have been godly men who had a sip here and there. Not just in biblical times, or medieval times, but even recently. I know Spurgeon and CS Lewis, for example, were known to like a little drink and a cigar from time to time. I'd say anyone who would judge those two men as devils better look at his own real sin: PRIDE.

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You missed the point entirely. The devil is not in the cup, but the fellowship.
If Spurgeon and CS Lewis were drinking a glass and having a cigar together,
their conversation is what matters.

Malachi 3:16. Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

Pathfinder627 said:

Not everyone who drinks wine is a devil. Those who think so are probably the worst drunks themselves and just projecting. I think it's very wise for them in particular to stay away from it. There are nasty company under even the smallest amount of alcohol. But their weakness is not everyone else's burden. There have been godly men who had a sip here and there. Not just in biblical times, or medieval times, but even recently. I know Spurgeon and CS Lewis, for example, were known to like a little drink and a cigar from time to time. I'd say anyone who would judge those two men as devils better look at his own real sin: PRIDE.

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I never had a problem with drinking, and I can count on my hand how many times I have gotten seriously intoxicated (Which was not very many times) before I committed my life to Christ.

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Minister Monardo said:

You missed the point entirely. The devil is not in the cup, but the fellowship.
If Spurgeon and CS Lewis were drinking a glass and having a cigar together,
their conversation is what matters.

Malachi 3:16. Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

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Wait, I agree with you completely. I didn't mean to quote you at first. I removed that quote. I was just musing that judging drinkers too harshly is based in one's own weaknesses or at least, trauma from bad drunks around us.

Minister Monardo said:

Once someone receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, there can be only One Truth.[regarding family]
Matthew 12:50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven,
the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

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If the purpose of God is not in thought as something in the midst we lose our way.

Bible Highlighter said:

I never had a problem with drinking, and I can count on my hand how many times I have gotten seriously intoxicated (Which was not very many times) before I committed my life to Christ.

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Do you know bad drunks at least? That can certainly turn us off. Especially family. In any case, I do commend you. I'm not a drinker either, so I don't want to sound like I'm promoting it for myself or anything. I've just come to realize that there are good people who can handle it well, and I don't want to judge them.

edit: Interestingly, my own denomination listed here (Nazarene) was and is one of the more "teetotaling" groups and was instrumental in the early Temperance movement. They meant well, but I think history has shown that they went too far as well (i.e. Prohibition).

Pathfinder627 said:

Do you know bad drunks at least? That can certainly turn us off. Especially family. In any case, I do commend you. I'm not a drinker either, so I don't want to sound like I'm promoting it for myself or anything. I've just come to realize that there are good people who can handle it well, and I don't want to judge them.

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Jesus said we can know a tree by its fruit. If alcoholic beverages brings forth good fruit in people's lives, then we would see more good come from such a thing instead of more bad. In my study of alcoholic beverages, I believe they do more harm than good.

Also, while alcohol can be used for short term helpful medical benefits like relieving pain, killing germs, and helps to prevent coronary artery disease, etc. alcohol's bad effects far outweigh any truly good benefits that it can give you through constant use or abuse. For one, alcohol is habit forming and addictive. This can lead to wanting to drink more and then drunkenness. Moderately strong alcohol drinks do not have nutrition labels on them. Why? Because they offer no nutrition because it is technically a poison or drug that your immune system has to fight off. I say it is a poison because...

"the long-term use of alcohol is capable of damaging nearly every organ and system in the body. Health effects associated with alcohol intake in large amounts include an increased risk of alcoholism, malnutrition, chronic pancreatitis, alcoholic liver disease, and cancer. In addition, damage to the central nervous system and peripheral nervous system can occur from chronic alcohol abuse."

Source:
Long-term effects of alcohol consumption - Wikipedia

For if you put alcohol in a glass and then put a dirty penny in it, the alcohol cleans the penny. If you put a piece of meat in there, it dries out the meat. Now, the alcohol does not know the difference between being inside the body vs. being outside of the body. It seeks to destroy. It's a poison or drug that will damage your body if you are not careful of your intake of it.