Ephesians 2:14-16

eleos1954 · Sep 5, 2020

Would like the Messianic View on this passage.

The context is being spoken to the Gentiles

Ephesians 2:14-16

14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

What was the dividing wall of hostility that was torn down?

What law of commandments & decrees were abolished? (through the cross/through His flesh)

What is the one new man out of two?

What was reconciled?

How was peace made and between who?

Soyeong · Sep 5, 2020

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that he abolished any of God's laws is calling him a liar and undermining what he accomplished on the cross. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so Ephesians 2:14-16 couldn't be referring to any of God's laws. It wouldn't make sense to think that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works in Ephesians 2:10 and then to think that Christ did away with his eternal instructions for how to do good works in verses 14-16. God did not make any mistakes when He gave the law, so He had no need to break down His own eternal laws. Furthermore, God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves, so I don't see a good reason to interpret these verses as referring to any of God's laws. I think that Paul was most likely describing man-made laws, such as the one Peter mention in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which would have acted as dividing wall of hostility.

eleos1954 · Sep 5, 2020

Soyeong said:
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so Ephesians 2:14-16 couldn't be referring to any of God's laws. It wouldn't make sense to think that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works in Ephesians 2:10 and then to think that Christ did away with his eternal instructions for how to do good works in verses 14-16. God did not make any mistakes when He gave the law, so He had no need to break down His own eternal laws. Furthermore, God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves, so I don't see a good reason to interpret these verses as referring to any of God's laws. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that he abolished any of God's laws is calling him a liar and undermining what he accomplished on the cross. I think that Paul was most likely describing man-made laws, such as the one Peter mention in acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which would have acted as dividing wall of hostility.

so.... you are saying it was necessary for Jesus to die on the cross for commandments and ordinances that were created by men ie man-made laws?

Man-made laws had to be reconciled to God through His body?

Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law

Yes absolutely ... and of course I agree.

Matthew 5:17-18

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

HARK! · Sep 5, 2020

eleos1954 said:
so.... you are saying it was necessary for Jesus to die on the cross for commandments and ordinances that were created by men ie man-made laws?

Man-made laws had to be reconciled to God through His body?

Yes.

These corrupt decrees, in contradiction to Torah, were made under the of the Priesthood, which had gone astray.

Yahshua had to remain obedient to his father's word to comply with scripture. Yahshua's authority would come in compliance with scripture.

No longer would the earthly Priesthood serve as the authoritative mediator between man and YHWH. Yahshua is now our authoritative mediator.

Here are some of his last words, before his ascension, in this newly transferred authority.

(CLV) Mt 28:18
And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, "Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth.

(CLV) Mt 28:19
Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

pinacled · Sep 6, 2020

Ezekiel 22:30
[ And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.]

GedaliahMaegil · Sep 6, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Would like the Messianic View on this passage.

The context is being spoken to the Gentiles

If all you saw was a reference to the gentiles in that passage, you may want to re-read it.

What was the dividing wall of hostility that was torn down?

It was in reference to a physical barrier, that was set up by authourities during the 1st century BCE. It was built in opposition to the Words of HaShem, as given to Yesha`yahu (Isaiah), as recorded in 56:1-8. The wall separated out the faithful foreigners (i.e. gerim), to whom it was permitted to make offerings and observances, and acted as another way to suppress Israel's mandate from HaShem to be "a light to the nations".

What law of commandments & decrees were abolished? (through the cross/through His flesh)

It's law of commandments in decrees. The word that is translated "decrees" or "ordinances" is the same word for dogma. In other words, the context here is the dogmata that were treated like Torah but were not, in ways that held faithful foreigners at a distance, including the aformentioned barrier, the prohibition of entering into the house of and eating with foreigners, and so on.

What is the one new man out of two?

Exactly what is said in chapter 2. He created out of both the native-born and the foreigner a new man, one who was obedient in Torah and who walked after the testimony of Messiah Yeshua, having there be no more man-made separation for the sake of righteousness, since they were both obeying as they ought.

What was reconciled?

How was peace made and between who?

As with the mixed multitude before HaShem at Sinai, the native-born and the ger are one in Messiah, and that is how it was treated since Yeshua's going to the Father. As the prophets spoke, the foreigners who were previously divided away from Yisra`el were to be accepted in Messiah, Who Is the One Who has rectified the error of separation by His Own death to pay the penalty of transgression of Torah.

The set-apart ones in Yerushalayim rejoiced at the glad tidings of Messiah being met by faith in foreigners. However, the introduction of antisemitism, gnosticism and syncretism after the 1st century CE that threw a monkey-wrench into that. However, as with every generation of faith, a remnant has been preserved. All the antisemitism, gnosticism, syncretism, and antinominaism could not impede the purposes of HaShem. The result you see today ... is us.

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2020

HARK! said:
Yes.

These corrupt decrees, in contradiction to Torah, were made under the of the Priesthood, which had gone astray.

Yahshua had to remain obedient to his father's word to comply with scripture. Yahshua's authority would come in compliance with scripture.

No longer would the earthly Priesthood serve as the authoritative mediator between man and YHWH. Yahshua is now our authoritative mediator.

Here are some of his last words, before his ascension, in this newly transferred authority.

(CLV) Mt 28:18
And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, "Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth.

(CLV) Mt 28:19
Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

HARK! said:
These corrupt decrees, in contradiction to Torah, were made under the of the Priesthood, which had gone astray.

ok ... what were they (corrupt decrees & commandments in the priesthood) and where in scripture does it note them?

I do understand Jesus is our High Priest.

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2020

GedaliahMaegil said:
If all you saw was a reference to the gentiles in that passage, you may want to re-read it.

It was in reference to a physical barrier, that was set up by authourities during the 1st century BCE. It was built in opposition to the Words of HaShem, as given to Yesha`yahu (Isaiah), as recorded in 56:1-8. The wall separated out the faithful foreigners (i.e. gerim), to whom it was permitted to make offerings and observances, and acted as another way to suppress Israel's mandate from HaShem to be "a light to the nations".

It's law of commandments in decrees. The word that is translated "decrees" or "ordinances" is the same word for dogma. In other words, the context here is the dogmata that were treated like Torah but were not, in ways that held faithful foreigners at a distance, including the aformentioned barrier, the prohibition of entering into the house of and eating with foreigners, and so on.

Exactly what is said in chapter 2. He created out of both the native-born and the foreigner a new man, one who was obedient in Torah and who walked after the testimony of Messiah Yeshua, having there be no more man-made separation for the sake of righteousness, since they were both obeying as they ought.

As with the mixed multitude before HaShem at Sinai, the native-born and the ger are one in Messiah, and that is how it was treated since Yeshua's going to the Father. As the prophets spoke, the foreigners who were previously divided away from Yisra`el were to be accepted in Messiah, Who Is the One Who has rectified the error of separation by His Own death to pay the penalty of transgression of Torah.

The set-apart ones in Yerushalayim rejoiced at the glad tidings of Messiah being met by faith in foreigners. However, the introduction of antisemitism, gnosticism and syncretism after the 1st century CE that threw a monkey-wrench into that. However, as with every generation of faith, a remnant has been preserved. All the antisemitism, gnosticism, syncretism, and antinominaism could not impede the purposes of HaShem. The result you see today ... is us.

GedaliahMaegil said:
and so on.

what are the "so on's" ... so far this is all that has been mentioned is ...

the prohibition of entering into the house of and eating with foreigners, and so on.

Exactly what is said in chapter 2. He created out of both the native-born and the foreigner a new man, one who was obedient in Torah and who walked after the testimony of Messiah Yeshua, having there be no more man-made separation for the sake of righteousness, since they were both obeying as they ought.

ok decrees = dogma (instituted by men ... not God)

however same word (decrees-dogma) used in Colossians 2

yet in Colossians 2 it references

circumcision and uncircumcision (relating to the Abrahamic covenant)

and then also ....

Colossians 2

it does say ...

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.

but then also says ...

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees (dogma) that stood against us. He took it (the same?) away, nailing it to the cross!

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

uncircumcision - (relates to the Abrahamic covenant)

eat ... drink ... feasts, New Moon or a sabbath.

these are not man-made.

HARK! · Sep 6, 2020

eleos1954 said:
ok ... what were they (corrupt decrees & commandments in the priesthood) and where in scripture does it note them?

I do understand Jesus is our High Priest.

Peter's vision is a perfect example. it wasn't about animals. It was about people.

GedaliahMaegil · Sep 7, 2020

eleos1954 said:
what are the "so on's" ... so far this is all that has been mentioned is ...

the prohibition of entering into the house of and eating with foreigners, and so on.

Exactly what is said in chapter 2. He created out of both the native-born and the foreigner a new man, one who was obedient in Torah and who walked after the testimony of Messiah Yeshua, having there be no more man-made separation for the sake of righteousness, since they were both obeying as they ought.

ok decrees = dogma (instituted by men ... not God)

however same word (decrees-dogma) used in Colossians 2

yet in Colossians 2 it references

circumcision and uncircumcision (relating to the Abrahamic covenant)

and then also ....

Colossians 2

it does say ...

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.

but then also says ...

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees (dogma) that stood against us. He took it (the same?) away, nailing it to the cross!

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

uncircumcision - (relates to the Abrahamic covenant)

eat ... drink ... feasts, New Moon or a sabbath.

these are not man-made.

Are you asking a question, or making a statement?

Dkh587 · Sep 26, 2020

There a literal wall built up by the Yahudim in Paul’s day that kept the Gentiles from going past a certain point in the temple complex.

It’s possible that he is referring to that wall.

visionary · Sep 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
There a literal wall built up by the Yahudim in Paul’s day that kept the Gentiles from going past a certain point in the temple complex.

It’s possible that he is referring to that wall.

Paul has no authority to take down that wall. There is no indication that that is the wall he is referring to. The barrier that Peter was given the vision to be no longer applicable was the wall of separation, the enmity between Jew and Genntile.

Dkh587 · Sep 29, 2020

visionary said:
Paul has no authority to take down that wall. There is no indication that that is the wall he is referring to. The barrier that Peter was given the vision to be no longer applicable was the wall of separation, the enmity between Jew and Genntile.

Where in the Torah were the Yahudim given authority to create a wall in the temple based on their manmade traditions?

visionary · Oct 2, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Where in the Torah were the Yahudim given authority to create a wall in the temple based on their manmade traditions?

exactly

Ephesians 2:14-16

God is Love

Well-Known Member

God is Love

שמע

walking with the Shekinah

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian

God is Love

God is Love

שמע

Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Similar threads