Denominations: why

concretecamper said:

there is also no such thing as "invisible" catholics

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They might not be physically invisible outside of the walls of the Catholic Church, but they sure are not visible at all at mass, except at very rare intervals, at best.

concretecamper said:

there is also no such thing as "invisible" catholics

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Nor are there any invisible Protestants. Or Orthodox Christians. But I recognize that many people completely misunderstand the meaning of the term, even after it's been explained.

bbbbbbb said:

They might not be physically invisible outside of the walls of the Catholic Church, but they sure are not visible at all at mass, except at very rare intervals, at best.

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still not the definition of invisible.

Albion said:

Nor are there any invisible Protestants. Or Orthodox Christians.

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thank you for stating the obvious

Albion said:

But I recognize that many people completely misunderstand the meaning of the term, even after it's been explained.

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perhaps you can PM bbbb

concretecamper said:

still not the definition of invisible.

thank you for stating the obvious
perhaps you can PM bbbb

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And perhaps you may wish to PM me yourself.

bbbbbbb said:

And perhaps you may wish to PM me yourself.

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dont quit your day job

concretecamper said:

dont quit your day job

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And that is editing manuscripts. I definitely dont.

How does the Body of Christ Mature.

The Apostle Paul gave the early disciples the whole counsel of God. They were taught the full revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.

`For I (Paul) have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)


Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)
2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)
3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)
4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)
5. Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)
6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)
7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)
8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)
9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)
10. Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

Denominations were bred from failed end times hysteria.

parousia70 said:

Denominations were bred from failed end times hysteria.

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That is one, among many, reasons. I doubt Luther and the other Reformers could be justly accused of end times hysteria.

bbbbbbb said:

I doubt Luther and the other Reformers could be justly accused of end times hysteria.

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You’re kidding, right?
Luther absolutely believed - falsely - that the pope was the end times Antichrist, And was so convinced he was living in the end of days that he even believed - again, falsely -that the end would come before he had finished translating the Old Testament.
RESEARCH: Martin Luther and the End of the World

He was so convinced that the times he was living in were so full of peril and dispair, without comparison, that he just HAD to be living in the end of days... And that hasn’t changed much among Protestants of every generation since...They just keep moving the goalposts after each failed end times prediction...

Where's the "hysteria" that was claimed?

The imminent end of the world has been predicted in almost every century since Christ; it was a popular belief among Catholics during Luther's lifetime.

parousia70 said:

You’re kidding, right?
Luther absolutely believed - falsely - that the pope was the end times Antichrist, And was so convinced he was living in the end of days that he even believed - again, falsely -that the end would come before he had finished translating the Old Testament.
RESEARCH: Martin Luther and the End of the World

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Which of the 95 theses that Luther nailed to the door had anything to do whatsoever with end times hysteria?

Albion said:

Where's the "hysteria" that was claimed?

The imminent end of the world has been predicted in almost every century since Christ; it was a popular belief among Catholics during Luther's lifetime.

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Quite true. Christians have been living in the "last days" since the day of Pentecost.

bbbbbbb said:

Quite true. Christians have been living in the "last days" since the day of Pentecost.

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No, we have not. If words have meaning.

Albion said:

Where's the "hysteria" that was claimed?

The imminent end of the world has been predicted in almost every century since Christ; it was a popular belief among Catholics during Luther's lifetime.

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And what do they all have in common? 100% failure rate in such predictions .

For sure end time hysteria is the leading cause for the fact that we have 20,000 denominations today… For after a denominations end time predictions fail to come to pass that denomination invariably splinters into multiple new denominations with multiple new end time predictions which again, always fail to come to pass, Resulting in further splintering, and so on and so on…

parousia70 said:

No, we have not. If words have meaning.

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I understand that biblical scholarship is hardly significant among Catholic laity and that you probably don't read your Bible all that much. That said, here is the account of what happened on the day of Pentecost from the Bible.

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

bbbbbbb said:

I understand that biblical scholarship is hardly significant among Catholic laity and that you probably don't read your Bible all that much.

Click to expand...

Your snarky, baseless attempt at impugning my scriptural knowledge and understanding aside, I'm a convert.
Try me
Lets go!

That said, here is the account of what happened on the day of Pentecost from the Bible.

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

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Oh... the Apostles were Absolutely living in the last days (Hebrews 1:1-3), and the end of the age, (1 Corinthians 10:11) in the last hour, (1 John 2:18) at a time when the Coming of the Lord was At Hand (James 5:8-9), about to take place (Matthew 16:27-28), without delay (Hebrews 10:37), Shortly (Revelation 1:1) for the time was then near (Revelation 1:3).

Stretching this into 2000 years and counting, the way you appear to want to do, has no scriptural merit and is solely based on personal bias, extrabiblical assumptions and man made tradition. (I understand this is Typical for most protestants when it comes to this topic) And, again, renders the Biblical terms "last Days" and "end of the age" totally meaningless.

Lets stick to scripture, shall we? (I know... the irony that I'm the one imploring you to do that is not lost on me)

They were Living in the last Days at the end of the age.
We are not.

parousia70 said:

Your snarky, baseless attempt at impugning my scriptural knowledge and understanding aside, I'm a convert.
Try me
Lets go!

Oh... the Apostles were Absolutely living in the last days (Hebrews 1:1-3), and the end of the age, (1 Corinthians 10:11) in the last hour, (1 John 2:18) at a time when the Coming of the Lord was At Hand (James 5:8-9), about to take place (Matthew 16:27-28), without delay (Hebrews 10:37), Shortly (Revelation 1:1) for the time was then near (Revelation 1:3).

Stretching this into 2000 years and counting, the way you appear to want to do, has no scriptural merit and is solely based on personal bias, extrabiblical assumptions and man made tradition. (I understand this is Typical for most protestants when it comes to this topic) And, again, renders the Biblical terms "last Days" and "end of the age" totally meaningless.

Lets stick to scripture, shall we? (I know... the irony that I'm the one imploring you to do that is not lost on me)

They were Living in the last Days at the end of the age.
We are not.

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So, when did the last days end for Christians? According to my pretorist friends the last days ended in 70 A. D. when Jesus Christ returned to reign on earth and ushered in His millennial kingdom.

Vachristian11 said:

The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?

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Over the course of the history of Christianity there have been a number of schisms--breaks in communion--among Christians. The causes and reasons for this are many and varied, but regardless it is a deeply unfortunate thing.

Christ, in His high priestly prayer in John 17 prays for the unity of His Church, and throughout the New Testament the apostles write that we should be in one accord.

So the divisions among Christians is not the work of God.

The term "denomination" which really simply means "that which is named". Its use is somewhat confusing and there isn't always necessarily total agreement on what it means. I would argue that a denomination is an organized group of Christians who are in active communion with one another, with shared practice, shared beliefs; and that this generally only applies applies to Protestants. Thus, even a non-denominational church is still a denomination, even if it is a denomination that consists only of a single congregation.

Catholicism, for example, isn't a denomination, but is instead a tradition. Just as Lutheranism is a tradition, and Presbyterianism is a tradition. Though there are many Lutheran and Presbyterian denominations. There aren't different Catholic denominations though, which is why it wouldn't be described as a denomination. Hence why this really only ever applies to Protestantism, which is a large tent catch-all term for churches which are either directly or indirectly connected to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. That means, again, that so-called non-denominational churches are still Protestant.

No, this isn't how things are supposed to be. But there isn't much that can be done to fix it. In order to fix it we would need to figure out how we can all come together, restore our communion together, and that can't happen unless we actually are able to all agree.

There are some who see this problem, and decide they will forego denominations, and be "just Christians", sometimes they start their own churches--but this hasn't solved anything. All that this does is create new divisions, it creates a new denomination. And they aren't "just Christians", they still have a theological tradition, a set of interpretations of the Bible they are operating with, a set of practices and beliefs that distinguish them from other Christians--so again, it is more of the same.

So what do we do? Well that is the billion dollar question.

-CryptoLutheran

parousia70 said:

Your snarky, baseless attempt at impugning my scriptural knowledge and understanding aside, I'm a convert.
Try me
Lets go!



Oh... the Apostles were Absolutely living in the last days (Hebrews 1:1-3), and the end of the age, (1 Corinthians 10:11) in the last hour, (1 John 2:18) at a time when the Coming of the Lord was At Hand (James 5:8-9), about to take place (Matthew 16:27-28), without delay (Hebrews 10:37), Shortly (Revelation 1:1) for the time was then near (Revelation 1:3).

Stretching this into 2000 years and counting, the way you appear to want to do, has no scriptural merit and is solely based on personal bias, extrabiblical assumptions and man made tradition. (I understand this is Typical for most protestants when it comes to this topic) And, again, renders the Biblical terms "last Days" and "end of the age" totally meaningless.

Lets stick to scripture, shall we? (I know... the irony that I'm the one imploring you to do that is not lost on me)

They were Living in the last Days at the end of the age.
We are not.

Click to expand...

You may find this helpful from the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

732 On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed. Since that day, the Kingdom announced by Christ has been open to those who believe in him: in the humility of the flesh and in faith, they already share in the communion of the Holy Trinity. By his coming, which never ceases, the Holy Spirit causes the world to enter into the "last days," the time of the Church, the Kingdom already inherited though not yet consummated.