Amils have some explaining to do.

Timtofly

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Until you grasp apocalyptic language you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. What is more: until you grasp the various recaps you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. You reject both. That is why you hold on for grim death to the Premil theory.
Why is the second coming at the end?

Your logic dictates that the first coming did not happen until Jesus resurrected from the grave. What about the 3.5 years of ministry before the cross? The first coming started at His birth, not the last act.

Jesus and God on the throne is coming in the 6th seal, not just the battle of Armageddon. The harvest that the Gospels preached is going to happen before Satan's 3.5 years, that is why Revelation 11:18 is the end, not Revelation 19, after Satan's 3.5 years. The parable of the unfaithful stewards did not end in the 1st century. The church became the unfaithful stewards. God has not come yet to claim ownership. That ownership happens at the 6th seal. The harlot church did as much damage as the unfaithful Jews at the first coming. She did not crucify the Son, but she took over the governments/kingdoms of the earth, forced servitude, instead of proclaiming the Gospel of free Salvation.
 
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DavidPT

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The following two posts are from some of my thoughts on a thread I started on another board not to long ago. I suspect I'm wasting my time posting it in here as well, since no Amils will actually address any of this in here either.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I want us to focus on one thing in particular here, meaning this....and I saw the souls of them...which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

The first thing that can't be denied, these are martyred because of this beast, before satan is ever loosed from the pit. The next thing that can't be denied, these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Rev 13. In order for them to even be martyred because of this beast, it requires a number of things that have to come to pass first.

Such as...a beast has to rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

Followed by another beast rising out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Until all of this happens first, there cannot be any martyrs recorded in Rev 20:4, who are martyred for refusing to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Rev 17 further proves this.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


Clearly, this is meaning the same beast seen rising out of the sea in Rev 13:1.

As to this beast, here's some more info concerning it.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Let's break this down like such.

A) The beast that thou sawest was

B) and is not

C) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


When John received these visions, what was the status of this beast at the time? Was it not B)? If C) means it shall ascend out of the pit, shouldn't B) mean it's in the pit at the time, and that A) means before it ended up in the pit?
 
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DavidPT

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With the following still in mind...

A) The beast that thou sawest was

B) and is not

C) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


Let's now focus on the martyrs recorded in Rev 20:4 who are martyred because of this beast prior to satan even being released from the pit. To take it a step further, when they are martyred because of this beast, is satan even in the pit at the time himself? The answer has to be no. When does Scripture record satan not in the pit? Isn't it before and after the thousand years? Obviously, when these are martyred because of this beast, that also being when satan himself is not in the pit, well it can't be meaning after the thousand years if they have already been martyred beforehand, now can it? Therefore, the only place their martyrdom fits is before the thousand years begin. Either A), B), or C) above proves this.

If B) above is meaning during John's day when John received these visions, and that the beast would have been in the pit at the time, it is ludicrous to think they are martyred during B) when the beast is not. Anyone that might want to dispute that sounds like one someone is not going to be able to reason with.

This indicates it's either during A) or C) when they are martyred. If B) is meaning during John's day when he received these visions, A) has to be meaning a time prior to John having these visions, and that C) has to be meaning a time post John seeing these visions.

If it can't be during B) when they are martyred, and if it can't be during A) when they are martyred, because this would place the 42 month reign as having been fulfilled prior to John having these visions when the beast was, as in before it gets cast into the pit, we then have no choice but to accept that it is during C) when they are martyred. This indicates before the thousand years have even begun, a beast has already risen out of the sea, another out of the earth, and together they cause the martyrdom recorded in Rev 20:4 having to do with not worshiping this beast.

So how is it that Amils can still claim that Amil is the correct position when the 42 month reign of the beast has already come and gone, not only before satan is released from the pit, but also before he is even cast into the pit? According to Scriptures it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precedes the 2nd coming. Everything submitted above will only work with Premil and certainly not with Amil instead.

Would Amils dare claim that it's either during A) or B) and not during C), when these martyrs in question per Rev 20:4 are martyred, then be expected to be taken seriously? I don't think they would, yet you never know.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why is the second coming at the end?

Your logic dictates that the first coming did not happen until Jesus resurrected from the grave. What about the 3.5 years of ministry before the cross? The first coming started at His birth, not the last act.

Jesus and God on the throne is coming in the 6th seal, not just the battle of Armageddon. The harvest that the Gospels preached is going to happen before Satan's 3.5 years, that is why Revelation 11:18 is the end, not Revelation 19, after Satan's 3.5 years. The parable of the unfaithful stewards did not end in the 1st century. The church became the unfaithful stewards. God has not come yet to claim ownership. That ownership happens at the 6th seal. The harlot church did as much damage as the unfaithful Jews at the first coming. She did not crucify the Son, but she took over the governments/kingdoms of the earth, forced servitude, instead of proclaiming the Gospel of free Salvation.

... because the Bible repeatedly say the second coming at the end.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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The following two posts are from some of my thoughts on a thread I started on another board not to long ago. I suspect I'm wasting my time posting it in here as well, since no Amils will actually address any of this in here either.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I want us to focus on one thing in particular here, meaning this....and I saw the souls of them...which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

The first thing that can't be denied, these are martyred because of this beast, before satan is ever loosed from the pit. The next thing that can't be denied, these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Rev 13. In order for them to even be martyred because of this beast, it requires a number of things that have to come to pass first.

Such as...a beast has to rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

Followed by another beast rising out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Until all of this happens first, there cannot be any martyrs recorded in Rev 20:4, who are martyred for refusing to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Rev 17 further proves this.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


Clearly, this is meaning the same beast seen rising out of the sea in Rev 13:1.

As to this beast, here's some more info concerning it.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Let's break this down like such.

A) The beast that thou sawest was

B) and is not

C) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


When John received these visions, what was the status of this beast at the time? Was it not B)? If C) means it shall ascend out of the pit, shouldn't B) mean it's in the pit at the time, and that A) means before it ended up in the pit?

The issue is: Amils have repeatedly addressed this here (and on Bibleforums), but you continually avoid the evidence. Sadly, your pattern is: when your views are refuted you disappear from the discussion. You refuse to admit the obvious. That has been your pattern for years. What you do not realize is that the objective lurkers are not satisfied with that, and many end up embracing Amil.

I have already addressed this, and you have already avoided this. You havre to do this for your argument to survive. I will try again.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.
 
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BABerean2

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I can't figure out what you believe or don't believe. One minute you appear to be a agreeing with me that the beast and satan are not the same entity. The next minute you seem to change your mind, such as in this post.


1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


The "beast" is Satan, and his system that rejects Christ, which is antichrist. That would include a single man, or any person, or any nation which rejects Christ.

This is the very definition of "antichrist" found in 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11.

.
 
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parousia70

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I really don't have a side to take in the whole mill thing, but as I see it, Satan rises from the bottomless pit (which is not the earth), and inspires mortal man, on earth, to do evil stuff. Similar to how you could say the Holy Spirit descended to earth and inspired the apostles to write Scripture.

No argument here. Just discussion.

We used to call this "Flip Wilson Theology" - perhaps only those of us over 50 know what I'm talking about...


In contrast to this Flip Wilson "The Devil made me do it" theology, Scripture teaches that Man is inspired to do evil by His own lusts and desires, and that men's hearts are wicked above all else. (Jeremiah 17:9, James 1:14)

Human beings don't require a loosed Satan roaming around in order to do evil deeds.
We are fully capable of that all on our own.
 
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JacksBratt

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Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?


Doesn't lying involve trying to deceive someone?



2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Why would that be true while he is in the pit? According to Rev 9 there are also locusts in this same pit. What are they able to transform themselves into while locked in the pit?



1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

If satan can do that while locked up in the pit, why don't we see these locusts in Rev 9 ever doing things like this while they are locked up in the pit? Until someone opens the pit to let them loose, it's as if they don't even exist at the time. So why is it when satan is locked up in this same pit, the same isn't true of him as well, that it's as if he doesn't even exist at the time?



1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Does this mean they were sent to the pit? Isn't that where satan is during the thousand years?



Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Why though, if satan is bound in the pit at the time, so that he can deceive the nations no more? Doesn't wiles involve trickery? Doesn't trickery involve deception?



James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Where exactly is the devil going to flee to if he is supposed to be locked away in the pit at the time? Back to the pit he escaped from during Amil's version of the thousand years?



Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

How does satan manage to cast others into a prison while he himself is in a prison at the time?



There are even more Scriptures than this that I could submit as well. Amils then think there is not a single contradiction in any of the above if all of that is meaning during the thousand years while satan is in the pit? Explain why there are no contradictions. You at least owe us that since you are the ones alleging no contradictions.

I submitted 7 verses above. How about going through each of those verses one by one then explaining to us how there are zero contradictions if satan is locked away in the pit at the time?


It doesn't matter that some of what I submitted above is not meaning in a literal sense. What matters though, how Revelation 20 has satan depicted at the time, that this can't contradict how those verses I submitted above have satan depicted at the time.
I have no idea what an Amill is.....

However, if you're talking about the millennial age....

Satan, today, is free to go to and fro like a lion searching to devour...

People are tempted and deceived every day...

The bible says this:

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


So... Questions:


1/ How is it that deception is still happening?
If he is bound, today, and during this time of bondage "so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. "

2/ If he was bound for 1000 years.. when did that all start? year 1000? 1500? 1250? Sheesh. He is not bound now.. maybe it was the year 500.. but wait.. people were deceived then too.

I don't recall a time when he was not out there messing people up.

3/ Someone said that he is imprisoned on earth.. but the scripture says he will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit...


Things..... aren't adding up here.

2/
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have no idea what an Amill is.....

However, if you're talking about the millennial age....

Satan, today, is free to go to and fro like a lion searching to devour...

People are tempted and deceived every day...

The bible says this:

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


So... Questions:


1/ How is it that deception is still happening?
If he is bound, today, and during this time of bondage "so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. "

2/ If he was bound for 1000 years.. when did that all start? year 1000? 1500? 1250? Sheesh. He is not bound now.. maybe it was the year 500.. but wait.. people were deceived then too.

I don't recall a time when he was not out there messing people up.

3/ Someone said that he is imprisoned on earth.. but the scripture says he will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit...


Things..... aren't adding up here.

2/

The only way this will not add up is if you (1) force a hyper literal interpretation upon clearly figurative language in the most symbolic setting in Scripture. (2) You take corroboration out of the equation. (3) You reject repeated climactic Scripture pertaining to the second coming. (4) You ignore the figurative usage of chains and imprisonment throughout the Word that represents curtailment. (5) You discard the Scripture that proves Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection.
 
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Timtofly

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... because the Bible repeatedly say the second coming at the end.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
The end of Adam's 6000 years of physical punishment and spiritual separation.

The Second Coming happens at the return not 6 years after Jesus Christ returns.

Do you not take into consideration the final harvest, or do you deny the Gospels along with Revelation 20 being Holy unto God.

When Did God physically come to earth with His Son as two separate beings? If you are non-trinitarian, that is different. You will never agree, that God as owner of His Field has a seperate Son, that was killed by the wicked stewards. When God and Christ show up physically, that is when all humanity realize their sinfulness and shame: Adam and Eve felt when they disobeyed God.

You are denying the 6th seal and not rightly dividing God's Word. The 6th seal and the battle of Armageddon are not the same event. God is not mentioned as physically coming at the battle of Armageddon.

"from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!"

When God shows His Face, that is the Second Coming. That is the point in History that the Father decides time is up. Titus 2:12-13.
12 It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age;
13 while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.

The next 1000 years happen after this, and this is the rapture, Second Coming event of the 6th seal. These two verses corroborate each other.

None of Revelation happens until God on the throne and the Lamb come first. Then the harvest, during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then Satan may get his short 42 months.
 
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DavidPT

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I have no idea what an Amill is.....

However, if you're talking about the millennial age....

Satan, today, is free to go to and fro like a lion searching to devour...

People are tempted and deceived every day...

The bible says this:

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


So... Questions:


1/ How is it that deception is still happening?
If he is bound, today, and during this time of bondage "so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. "

2/ If he was bound for 1000 years.. when did that all start? year 1000? 1500? 1250? Sheesh. He is not bound now.. maybe it was the year 500.. but wait.. people were deceived then too.

I don't recall a time when he was not out there messing people up.

3/ Someone said that he is imprisoned on earth.. but the scripture says he will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit...


Things..... aren't adding up here.

2/


An Amil is someone who basically believes we are in the thousand years right now, and have been for the past 2000 years. Most Amils have the beginning of the thousand years taking place at the cross. Amils don't take the thousand years in the literal sense, though they apparently used to until the first thousand years came and went, and that nothing recorded in Revelation 20 happened soon afterwards. After that they decided the thousand years weren't meaning a literal thousand years after all. That's what I recall reading in an article or two some time back. Except I didn't bookmark those articles at the time, therefore I have no clue as to a link to any of them.


The main difference between Amil and Premil is, Amil has the thousand years occuring in this age prior to the 2nd coming. Premil has the thousand years occuring in the next age after the 2nd coming. There are obviously other differences as well, but that is one of the main ones. The way I go about trying to determine where the thousand years actually fit, besides the OP, can be seen in my recent posts, post #22 and #23. If any of my reasoning is wrong in either of those posts, Amils should be able to point out what exactly I said that is reasoned incorrectly, then show why it's reasoned incorrectly, then provide the correct way to reason it instead. In order to debunk what I submitted, it requires doing all of what I just said. But Amil's idea of debunking is not the same as my idea of debunking, unfortunately.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The end of Adam's 6000 years of physical punishment and spiritual separation.

The Second Coming happens at the return not 6 years after Jesus Christ returns.

Do you not take into consideration the final harvest, or do you deny the Gospels along with Revelation 20 being Holy unto God.

When Did God physically come to earth with His Son as two separate beings? If you are non-trinitarian, that is different. You will never agree, that God as owner of His Field has a seperate Son, that was killed by the wicked stewards. When God and Christ show up physically, that is when all humanity realize their sinfulness and shame: Adam and Eve felt when they disobeyed God.

You are denying the 6th seal and not rightly dividing God's Word. The 6th seal and the battle of Armageddon are not the same event. God is not mentioned as physically coming at the battle of Armageddon.

"from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!"

When God shows His Face, that is the Second Coming. That is the point in History that the Father decides time is up. Titus 2:12-13.
12 It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age;
13 while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.

The next 1000 years happen after this, and this is the rapture, Second Coming event of the 6th seal. These two verses corroborate each other.

None of Revelation happens until God on the throne and the Lamb come first. Then the harvest, during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then Satan may get his short 42 months.

There is no teaching about "Adam's 6000 years of physical punishment and spiritual separation" in the sacred pages. That is invented by people like you to support false doctrine.
 
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sovereigngrace

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An Amil is someone who basically believes we are in the thousand years right now, and have been for the past 2000 years. Most Amils have the beginning of the thousand years taking place at the cross. Amils don't take the thousand years in the literal sense, though they apparently used to until the first thousand years came and went, and that nothing recorded in Revelation 20 happened soon afterwards. After that they decided the thousand years weren't meaning a literal thousand years after all. That's what I recall reading in an article or two some time back. Except I didn't bookmark those articles at the time, therefore I have no clue as to a link to any of them.


The main difference between Amil and Premil is, Amil has the thousand years occuring in this age prior to the 2nd coming. Premil has the thousand years occuring in the next age after the 2nd coming. There are obviously other differences as well, but that is one of the main ones. The way I go about trying to determine where the thousand years actually fit, besides the OP, can be seen in my recent posts, post #22 and #23. If any of my reasoning is wrong in either of those posts, Amils should be able to point out what exactly I said that is reasoned incorrectly, then show why it's reasoned incorrectly, then provide the correct way to reason it instead. In order to debunk what I submitted, it requires doing all of what I just said. But Amil's idea of debunking is not the same as my idea of debunking, unfortunately.

These were addressed, debunked and refuted. But as is your MO, you avoided the responses, counter-arguments and biblical references because they forbid Premil. This has become your typical way of engagement. We can only concluded that your constant avoidance is evidence that you are bereft of biblical arguments.
 
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Zao is life

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Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

That dude lied deliberately and knowingly. I'm 100% Pre-mill, but I do not believe that all A-mills are trying to deceive. They just think we don't get it because they don't get it.

That said, there are some people who will knowingly and deliberately ignore scripture wherever and whenever scripture proves them wrong - maybe because they think they will have egg in their face in front of a whole lot of people if they admit they were wrong, and maybe because their salary comes from a congregation where teaching anything else will get them fired.

There are lots of motives for not following scripture, for those who deliberately and knowingly choose to follow what they know is a misinterpretation - but I don't think that that motive can be ascribed to all a-mills. I just think they're drunk on something (but it's not alcohol).
 
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Zao is life

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You have been told countless times and ignored the truth countless times. The deception specifically refers to the general darkness that sat upon the Gentiles (ethnos) before Christ's first resurrection. This has now been lifted. We are evidence of the ongoing fulfillment of that today.

The binding and imprisonment of Satan are spiritual descriptions in a highly symbolic chapter relating to a spiritual being. The same symbolism is related to the wicked but none of us take that literal.

This is not brain science.
In your unqualified opinion (unqualified because any opinion which is false is an unqualified opinion) the binding and imprisonment of Satan are spiritual descriptions in a highly symbolic chapter relating to a spiritual being.

Scripture (the direct teaching of the apostles) states otherwise. The apostles were not speaking figuratively when they warned about the wiles and activities and abilities of Satan. You ignore all scriptures that refute your view in order to hold onto your position - then you accuse others of doing what you do.

There's a psychology in all this - it shows what sort of power belief in something has over the mind, and how it's able to blind the mind to anything else that's staring it in the face.
 
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Christian Gedge

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but I don't think that that motive can be ascribed to all a-mills. I just think they're drunk on something (but it's not alcohol).

“not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but filled with the Spirit;”. (‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:18‬). :angel:
 
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Zao is life

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“not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but filled with the Spirit;”. (‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:18‬). :angel:
:oldthumbsup: Yes, anyone who is born of the Spirit is filled with the Spirit - but still, many walk around filled with the Spirit, and blindfolded by their own interpretations of certain aspects of scripture, all at the same time. That's the wine that makes us drunk - the power of belief in our own beliefs.
 
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Zao is life

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Until you grasp apocalyptic language you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. What is more: until you grasp the various recaps you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. You reject both. That is why you hold on for grim death to the Premil theory.
.. says the one who clearly does not grasp apocalyptic language, or only partially grasps it. Says the one who sees just as darkly through the dim stained glass as anyone else, yet claims he sees clearly.
 
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Zao is life

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The following two posts are from some of my thoughts on a thread I started on another board not to long ago. I suspect I'm wasting my time posting it in here as well, since no Amils will actually address any of this in here either.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The argument of the A-mills goes around "it's the first (protos) resurrection, and Christ's resurrection is the first (protos) resurrection, and therefore it's talking about a 'spiritual resurrection' (which apparently takes place when some is born (gennao) of the Spirit from above)

Below is one part of the truth regarding which souls that were beheaded are seen to live and reign with Christ - but I'm posting it in a reply to your comment - because when the A-mills see something like this, they automatically immediately pull their blindfolds back over their eyes, like most of us pull our masks up over our mouths and noses these days, the moment we get into a crowded place:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

We know that Adam died (spiritually) when he sinned - He was cut off from the life of God which is birthed by the Spirit of God, and his body would eventually die also - but Adam was still a man with a body and a soul - and the noun anastasis (resurrection) wherever it's found in the N.T, is referring to the resurrection of the body, when it is raised from the dead and changed into a spiritual body (I've inserted the passages below):-

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen]). "

In the passage below, the New Testament teaches us very clearly and unambiguously that it is the body (σῶμα sōma) that will be raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) a spiritual (πνευματικός pneumatikós) body (σῶμα sōma).

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 & 42-57
"But someone will say, How are the dead (νεκρός nekrós) raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) up, and with what body (σῶμα sōma) do they come? Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive (ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō) unless it dies..

.. And what you sow, you do not sow the body (σῶμα sōma) that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest)..

..And God gives it a body (σῶμα sōma) as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body (σῶμα sōma)."

"So also the resurrection (ἀνάστασις anástasis) of the dead (νεκρός nekrós)..

..It is sown in corruption, it is raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) in power;..

..it is sown a natural (ψυχικός psychikós) body (σῶμα sōma), it is raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) a spiritual (πνευματικός pneumatikós) body (σῶμα sōma).

There is a natural (ψυχικός psychikós) body (σῶμα sōma), and there is a spiritual (πνευματικός pneumatikós) body (σῶμα sōma).

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living (ζάω dzah'-o) soul (ψυχή psychḗ)," the last Adam was a life-giving (ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō) Spirit (πνεῦμα pneûma)..

..But not the spiritual (πνευματικός pneumatikós) first, but the natural (ψυχικός psychikós); afterward the spiritual (πνευματικός pneumatikós).

The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven. Such the earthy man, such also the earthy ones. And such the heavenly Man, such also the heavenly ones..

..And according as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man..

..And I say this, brothers, that flesh (σάρξ sárx) and blood (αἷμα haîma) cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet..

..For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead (νεκρός nekrós) shall be raised (ἐγείρω egeírō) incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..

..But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death (νεκρός nekrós) is swallowed up in victory.

O death (νεκρός nekrós), where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

The sting of death (νεκρός nekrós) is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Wherever it appears in the New Testament (in every single verse where it appears), the Greek word ἀνάστασις (anástasis) is always and only used in reference to rising again from death in the body, albeit when Christ appears, the body of the one who rises from death in his body will be a changed body. The same goes for the verbs used for rise, risen, raised, whenever they are used in reference to the resurrection - they are always and only referring to rising again from the dead in the body:

1. Christ is the first (πρῶτον prōton) to have risen from the dead; and

2. those who have been birthed (γεννάω gennáō) by the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] from above (ἄνωθεν ánōthen), are

3. spiritually in Christ, and have therefore risen with (συνεγείρω synegeírō) Him; and

4. He is therefore the firstborn (πρωτότοκος prōtótokos) from the dead; and

5. the firstborn (πρωτότοκος prōtótokos) among many brothers; and

6. the first-fruits (ἀπαρχή aparchḗ') of the resurrection, which is a resurrection from death.

The word resurrection implies that something had died - as the apostle Paul stated:

Romans 8:10-11
"And if Christ is in you, indeed the body [σῶμα sōma] is dead because of sin, but the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] is life because of (Christ's) righteousness

- but if the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] of the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Christ from the dead shall also vitalize [ζωοποιέωby zōopoiéō] your mortal [θνητός thnētós] bodies [σῶμα sōma] by His Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] who dwells in you."

-----------------------------------------------------------------​

The argument of the A-mills which goes around those who had been beheaded is referring to the first (protos) resurrection, and Christ's resurrection is the first (protos) resurrection, and therefore it's talking about a 'spiritual resurrection' (which apparently takes place when some is born (gennao) of the Spirit from above).
 
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BABerean2

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The first thing that can't be denied, these are martyred because of this beast, before satan is ever loosed from the pit. The next thing that can't be denied, these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Rev 13. In order for them to even be martyred because of this beast, it requires a number of things that have to come to pass first.


Could it include John the Baptist, who was beheaded during the first century?
Where is his soul now?


.
 
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