Firearms relegated to Ethics and Morality?

Sketcher

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Do you know of any court cases that were decided in this fashion or is it just your opinion? I know that several states require training prior to getting a CCW and there has been no successful challenges to them. Just like there have been no cases that got rid of the requirement to pass a background check prior to buying a weapon.
But I don't need a CCW to obtain a rifle. CCW is limited in scope.

The Second Amendment specifies that there be a 'well-regulated militia'. Not that anyone can have any weapons they want (even weapons that didn't exist at the time it was written) with no oversight or responsibilities.
And my point is that if the Federal government can restrict who can purchase a rifle, then a Federal government that needs to be forcibly removed by the well-regulated militia can easily take away the very weapons that will allow the militia to so because it will be using and abusing its accumulated power. The militia of the day had weapons because the members of the militia had their own weapons and brought them.
If you take pro-gun arguments to the extreme, you would have to let private citizens own nuclear weapons as well.
Which is irrelevant, because the vast majority of the pro-gun people are not arguing for the private ownership of nuclear weapons. The US actively discourages entire countries from obtaining them, they're a different animal from standard-issue military firearms that every country has.
 
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Strathos

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I don't know about that...these people having protesters show up at their houses might see the value of an AK-47 if the mobs turn violent...

That should be the job of law enforcement. Vigilante justice is never a good idea, outside of comic books. If law enforcement can't do its job properly, it needs to be reformed.

There are fewer than a dozen Americans who could afford a nuclear weapon, much less service it.

Irrelevant. The question was whether it should be an option or not.

Actually, yes, you can hunt with those. I'm considering going hunting with my AR 15 this year.

Seems a bit unfair to the animals. The few times I was out with hunters they used crossbows. I wasn't trained in their use so I just tagged along.

They are also shot in competitions, not to mention just fun to shoot in general if you like guns.

Then perhaps there could be some kind of military camps where trained members of the armed forces can host and supervise such competitions, and allow civilians to borrow their weapons? Seems like a better idea than just handing them out to any average Joe on the street without any kind of license, training, or background check.

And suppose the government turned tyrannical and we had to retake it. You wouldn't want to do that with a hunting rifle, I guarantee it.

And what would you do with your AR-15 against tanks, helicopters, fighter jets, drone missiles, etc.?

Also, if you read the whole second amendment, you would see that it also says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." What part of "shall not" do you not understand?

And what part of "well-regulated militia" do you not understand?

See, we can play this game all day.

The weapons we're talking about didn't exist back then. If you want to keep to a strict originalist interpretation, the most advanced weapon you would be allowed to own would be a flintlock musket.

Either way, I think it's safe to say that advocating for zero regulations whatsoever is not what was intended.

Post #37 cherry picked a portion of the 2nd Amendment, the comma and the rest of the Amendment are important to show that it is a right of the people, the individual, to own and possess. "," the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

No more than you did. The full text:

The United States Constitution said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

You have to take all of that into account.

And my point is that if the Federal government can restrict who can purchase a rifle, then a Federal government that needs to be forcibly removed by the well-regulated militia can easily take away the very weapons that will allow the militia to so because it will be using and abusing its accumulated power. The militia of the day had weapons because the members of the militia had their own weapons and brought them.

Do you think that known murderers with criminal records, terrorists, gang members, psychopaths, etc. should be allowed to buy guns and use them unsupervised?

Which is irrelevant, because the vast majority of the pro-gun people are not arguing for the private ownership of nuclear weapons. The US actively discourages entire countries from obtaining them, they're a different animal from standard-issue military firearms that every country has.

The point is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. What kind of weapon is too deadly for a private citizen to own? Tanks? Fighter jets? Nerve gas? Anthrax?
 
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Darkhorse

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That should be the job of law enforcement. Vigilante justice is never a good idea, outside of comic books. If law enforcement can't do its job properly, it needs to be reformed.

Yes, it should be handled by law enforcement, but...not everyone lives within 3 minutes of a police response. Many times it took police considerably longer than 3 minutes to respond to these mobs, and the only reason the occupants of the houses were not attacked is that the mobs didn't become violent.

That's an unacceptable risk. You never want to be at the mercy of a mob. Ask Reginald Denny.
 
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Under One King

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That should be the job of law enforcement. Vigilante justice is never a good idea, outside of comic books. If law enforcement can't do its job properly, it needs to be reformed.



Irrelevant. The question was whether it should be an option or not.



Seems a bit unfair to the animals. The few times I was out with hunters they used crossbows. I wasn't trained in their use so I just tagged along.



Then perhaps there could be some kind of military camps where trained members of the armed forces can host and supervise such competitions, and allow civilians to borrow their weapons? Seems like a better idea than just handing them out to any average Joe on the street without any kind of license, training, or background check.



And what would you do with your AR-15 against tanks, helicopters, fighter jets, drone missiles, etc.?



And what part of "well-regulated militia" do you not understand?

See, we can play this game all day.

The weapons we're talking about didn't exist back then. If you want to keep to a strict originalist interpretation, the most advanced weapon you would be allowed to own would be a flintlock musket.

Either way, I think it's safe to say that advocating for zero regulations whatsoever is not what was intended.



No more than you did. The full text:



You have to take all of that into account.



Do you think that known murderers with criminal records, terrorists, gang members, psychopaths, etc. should be allowed to buy guns and use them unsupervised?



The point is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. What kind of weapon is too deadly for a private citizen to own? Tanks? Fighter jets? Nerve gas? Anthrax?
Dude, I am not in the least bit opposed to militias. I was quoting the part of the amendment you left out. If anyone doesn't understand about militias, it's probably you.

And guns are unfair to animals. Wow.

I'd much rather have an AR against all that than a bolt action or a lever action hunting rifle.

Military allow civilians to borrow their weapons, since civilians can't have them. That's so ridiculous.

Are you just afraid of guns, or do you hate them, or what?
 
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Belk

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But I don't need a CCW to obtain a rifle. CCW is limited in scope.
I'm aware it is limited in scope but that does not answer my question. I am unaware of any court that has upheld a decision the supports your view but I am aware of multiple that show a reasonable limit that would seem to contradict your claim. Are you aware of any cases that show a limit on a type of weapon is an imposition or are you simply espousing your opinion?
 
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Tanj

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ss51

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The United States Constitution said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
You have to take all of that into account.

"Taking into account the whole" it is clear it is a personal, individual right.
The comma indicates it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A LOT of Christians and churches are falling for the leftist anti gun propaganda, looks like maybe here as well when it is relegated to "ethics and morality" to participate in the safest sport and activity there is, and a way for families to gather and inculcate values that this world needs.

Is it possible that lots of Christians simply take Jesus seriously when He says, "Whoever lives by the sword dies by the sword"?

The fundamental ethical question about firearms--about any weapon--is what purpose does one have it for?

Do I own a firearm because I'm a hunter and I hunt animals for my own food?
Or do I own a firearm because I plan on using it on another human person?

For the first nearly four hundred years of Christian history the universal and unanimous position of the Church was that violence was contrary to Christian ethics and morality, it contradicted Christ's teachings. Which is why the Church frowned on Christians serving in the Roman military or serving as magistrates who may have to sentence people to death.

Views on this subject began to change with the conversion of Constantine to Christianity, as Christians who now were no longer being imprisoned and put to death by the Roman state were now given positions of importance within the Roman state--heck, the emperor himself confessed himself to be a Christian.

And so the questions arose, such as, can Christian rulers go to war? Can Christians serve in the military? And out of these questions, arising post-Constantine, a general view tended to slowly arise that there may be cases of justified violence. Now, justified violence isn't the same thing as good violence. Violence isn't good. But generally the Church came to regard violence, in very specific circumstances, to be justified--so long as executed by the proper authorities, largely in keeping with what St. Paul says in Romans 13 about the state as executing the sword to curb evil.

Now, of course, there's a lot of history between then and now, and we can see a lot of unjustifiable violence done by Christians, and at times the Church acting complicit. That's because history is complicated and messy.

But here's the thing: What is the Christian ethic on these matters? This isn't a "left" or "right" issue. These are legitimate questions to be asked in the context of Christian discipleship.

When, if ever, is a Christian justified to use violence? After all, Christ Himself commands that we repay no one evil for evil, that if we are struck, to offer the other cheek, and to never retaliate. He commands that we love our enemies, and that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. And we can see that the Apostles, and the ancient fathers of the Church all understood this pretty strictly. The ancient patristic position is that Christians are called to lives of intentional peace, that violence is unacceptable, that it is better to be killed than to kill.

Is self defense justifiable violence? Possibly, but don't simply take it as a given. The question of violence, the question of harming another person (not to taking their life), should be an immensely hard question for us.

If we are comfortable then something is probably wrong, and we should search ourselves about it. No one should be comfortable with violence, even if they may reach an ethical conclusion that violence may sometimes be justified.

This isn't political, it's biblical.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ss51

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If most who claim to be Biblical Christians were in fact Biblically Christian they would obey His command to heal, cleanse, preach etc.
We are so far from biblical truth there are some who cherry pick a verse such as "whoever lives by the sword etc...." and twists it's meaning to fit their own twisted view of how everyone else should live.
The "Ecclesia" is the body of believers, in relationship with the Lord and Savior, just as in Genesis 1 before the fall, and after He cleanses the earth and restores it in Revelation 22, in the meantime we have churches conning people into thinking they have to go through their business and their "holy man" to get to heaven when in reality Jesus paid it all and all authority was given to Him, not a man made "holy man" who cannot absolve sin.
I have yet to see a slave to religion who knew and lived Biblical Christianity.
 
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Darkhorse

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The United States Constitution said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
You have to take all of that into account.

"Taking into account the whole" it is clear it is a personal, individual right.
The comma indicates it.

The Supreme Court also indicated it in the Heller case (2008).
 
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bèlla

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“All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. —1 Corinthians 10:23

Gun ownership is needlessly contentious. If your conscience is comfortable owning a gun and you haven't been convicted against doing the same by the Holy Spirit; carry on. If you feel differently, honor it and rest in the sanctity of your decision.

I'm not willing to risk my welfare or loved ones on this issue. Nor would I entertain a companion who felt differently. Postulations are easy when you aren't facing a physical threat to the ones who matter most. That doesn't set aside the necessity for levelheadedness or wisdom.

But it's a man's duty to protect those entrusted to his care. Anyone abstaining from the act due to principle or cowardice is unfathomable. I couldn't respect him.

Before anyone comments, Jesus was God incarnate. He didn't need a weapon. The apostles were ambassadors sent forth on a holy mission. We're addressing every day folks.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have yet to see a slave to religion who knew and lived Biblical Christianity.

Ah, Biblical Chritianity™. A nice fine American-made consumer product. Take everything Jesus and the Apostles said, pretend like it doesn't exist, ignore two thousand years of Christian faith and teaching. Serve lukewarm with a decorative plastic cross.

After all, we can't let the real cross get in the way. Too much money to made, too much power to be had, too many people who aren't me to hate.

And we can know it's Biblical™ because while one doesn't actually have to read the Bible® to see what it says, one can beat other people over the head with a Bible®. And isn't that what being a Christian™ is really about?

The Bible® is a registered trademark of the Biblical Christianity™ Corporation, LTD.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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grandvizier1006

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Ah, Biblical Chritianity™. A nice fine American-made consumer product. Take everything Jesus and the Apostles said, pretend like it doesn't exist, ignore two thousand years of Christian faith and teaching. Serve lukewarm with a decorative plastic cross.

After all, we can't let the real cross get in the way. Too much money to made, too much power to be had, too many people who aren't me to hate.

And we can know it's Biblical™ because while one doesn't actually have to read the Bible® to see what it says, one can beat other people over the head with a Bible®. And isn't that what being a Christian™ is really about?

The Bible® is a registered trademark of the Biblical Christianity™ Corporation, LTD.

-CryptoLutheran
Supporting homosexuality and abortion isn’t something the Apostles or centuries of church teaching would support, either, but we have millions of leftist Christians claiming otherwise because “We’re like minorities and the poor! We’re the real Christians!”
 
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public hermit

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I'm all for good gun regulations. I don't want just any idiot walking around with a gun. If they've shown themselves to be violent or mentally unstable, sorry bud. No gun for you.

I own guns and pray to God the only thing I ever shoot is supper. It would break my heart to have to shoot someone. There is no making a mistake when it comes to guns. It's such a big responsibility, even if you're just procuring food. I don't remember it being like this, when I was growing up. Guns weren't a matter of pride. They were just a tool. A very effective and dangerous tool. They need to be regulated better than they are. IMO.
 
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Strathos

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Basic firearm safety should be required in High School, like drivers education. Even if you don't own one, knowing their potential and how to handle them safely would be valuable.

That does sound like a good idea.

Yes, it should be handled by law enforcement, but...not everyone lives within 3 minutes of a police response. Many times it took police considerably longer than 3 minutes to respond to these mobs, and the only reason the occupants of the houses were not attacked is that the mobs didn't become violent.

That's an unacceptable risk. You never want to be at the mercy of a mob. Ask Reginald Denny.

Do you think that waving around weapons could possibly escalate a non-violent situation into a violent one?

Dude, I am not in the least bit opposed to militias. I was quoting the part of the amendment you left out. If anyone doesn't understand about militias, it's probably you.

"Well-regulated" implies there has to be some oversight.

And guns are unfair to animals. Wow.

Subautomatic machine guns are. What are you hunting that needs that kind of firepower to put down?

I'd much rather have an AR against all that than a bolt action or a lever action hunting rifle.

Military allow civilians to borrow their weapons, since civilians can't have them. That's so ridiculous.

Civilians already aren't allowed to have the majority of weapons the military has. Try buying an MBT, MOAB, or Predator drone on the open market.

Are you just afraid of guns, or do you hate them, or what?

I'm afraid of unhinged psychopaths owning weapons that allow them to slaughter dozens of people in seconds, which is an event that happens dozens of times every year in the US. I'd think anyone who is not afraid of that is not paying attention.

I'm not saying that it should be completely illegal to own an AK-47 or AR-15, but at least don't sell them on the open market to anyone without any kind of oversight, background checks, or license/training.
 
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