Is commiting your life to Jesus works?

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

d taylor said:
Not sure how you have my name connected to that comment but i did not make that statement.

So if you could correct this please do.

Changed.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said:
Sorry, but you are hoisted by your own petard. You said:

You cannot quote the Bible actually mentioning either that abortion is "the actual kind of sins that are attached with warnings of hellfire and or spiritual condemnation in the afterlife," nor can you quote the Bible actually treating the death of a fetus as either an accidental death or an intentional death.

Instead, you are adding to God's Holy Word by drawing a second-level conclusion that suits your purposes.

The basic error is that your concept of sin is too narrow. Of course, you must make it so narrow in order to believe that you never commit sin.

Most in the church believe the same way about sin and salvation in the way that you do. It's all about having a belief alone in Jesus and one can sin and still be saved. Don't lift a finger for God, that is works salvation. Just live for oneself and one's sin and have a mental acknowledgement of the Savior. But even the demons believe and tremble.

I mean, I should not have to tell a Christian that abortion is murder. It's common sense. If a baby is growing inside a mother, and you can see the baby growing inside with medical technology, then it is a living human being growing inside of her and it is not a zombie growing inside a mother. It's not the living dead. Just beyond the flesh of her stomach and other human internal organs is a living growing human being. Babies inside the mother can kick and move. It's a living human being inside, and it can be killed if one plans to do so. Abortion is murder. The fact that you don't get that basic concept is scary. It's insanity or deception to say that what is growing inside a mother is not a living human being that cannot be killed.

I believe we are living in the last days as 2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about indeed. It's getting closer to the times right before Noah entered the Ark. But of course, go ahead and think that God approves of saving a believer in their justifying sin. See how that works out for you in the end. I will seek to obey God's commands and trust in Him and do what is good and right and I will not justify sin and evil.

God is good, and His people are good, too.

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Most in the church believe the same way about sin and salvation in the way that you do. It's all about having a belief alone in Jesus and one can sin and still be saved. Don't lift a finger for God, that is works salvation. Just live for oneself and one's sin and have a mental acknowledgement of the Savior. But even the demons believe and tremble.

I mean, I should not have to tell a Christian that abortion is murder. It's common sense. If a baby is growing inside a mother, and you can see the baby growing inside with medical technology, then it is a living human being growing inside of her and it is not a zombie growing inside a mother. It's not the living dead. Just beyond the flesh of her stomach and other human internal organs is a living growing human being. Babies inside the mother can kick and move. It's a living human being inside, and it can be killed if one plans to do so. Abortion is murder. The fact that you don't get that basic concept is scary. It's insanity or deception to say that what is growing inside a mother is not a living human being that cannot be killed.

I believe we are living in the last days as 2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about indeed. It's getting closer to the times right before Noah entered the Ark. But of course, go ahead and think that God approves of saving a believer in their justifying sin. See how that works out for you in the end. I will seek to obey God's commands and trust in Him and do what is good and right and I will not justify sin and evil.

God is good, and His people are good, too.

You rejected your own earlier argument about sin to come up with that.

I can extrapolate abortion to murder. You can't, unless you reject your own definition of sin.

SANTOSO · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, he is not alive anymore to do that. The problem is his example that he left. People will follow Billy's example (Which is someone you look to in following or defending).

Billy's actions and words do not line up with our Lord Jesus Christ. I already demonstrated this fact for you in my previous post, but you are unwilling to see it because you want to follow Billy's association and or those who teach like him.

Billy teaches that sin does not cause spiritual death or condemnation for a believer.
Yet, Jesus did teach that sin cause spiritual death or condemnation for the believer.
In Matthew 25:21, the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of His Lord, and yet, in Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant was told to be cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.

No. You don't understand. Jesus is teaching that looking upon a woman in lust can cause a person to be cast bodily into hellfire. Billy is teaching that sins like these will not cause them to be cast bodily into hellfire for the believer. Jesus does not make an exemption for believers in regards to Matthew 5:28-30. In fact, it does no good for an unbeliever to just stop in looking at woman in lust if they refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior. So the unbeliever is not condemned for just committing these sins alone, but there big sin that is standing in the way is not accepting Jesus as their Savior. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 5:28-30. Even Paul said that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and he lists sins like adultery in Galatians 5:19-21.

This is in reference to her past sins only. Obviously at this point her life she was not planning to continue to keep committing adultery an hour or so later. In fact, Jesus made this fact clear by telling her to: “sin no more” (John 8:11). Jesus did not tell the woman caught in the act of adultery to not worry about her sin anymore because they were all paid for.

Jesus said to the man he healed to also, “Sin no more, lest (otherwise) a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14). What worse thing can come upon him? The Lake of Fire of course.

Because the Billy Graham association is saying that one can commit grievous (or mortal) sin and still be saved when the Bible teaches contrary to that fact. Again, Jesus and His followers taught that any grievous (or mortal) sin that is committed that is not confessed or forsaken leads to spiritual death or condemnation. Billy left a legacy behind of his beliefs that teach that this is not the case. They teach that a believer can die in their unconfessed mortal sins and still be saved all because they have a belief alone in Jesus. So according to his theology, one can be like George Sodini and murder a bunch of people and commit suicide thinking one is saved. Well, that is if you take his theology or words literally.

What part of the text indicated she was a believer previously?
None. This means she was never a believer before, and she was sinful and she was coming to the Lord for the first time and all her PAST sins only were being forgiven.
Nowhere is Jesus saying here that her future rebellion against God is being forgiven here and that she can remain as a prostitute as long as she has a belief alone in Jesus.

Suicide (where the person does not come back to life) always means that such a person is condemned with hell fire or spiritual death because they cannot confess of this sin when they are dead. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we are not cleansed unrighteousness, we are not going to make it. For Paul says be not deceived that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21).

It's obvious Billy has no problem with the unbiblical beliefs within Catholicism. Again, this alone should be reason for you to no longer look to the teachings that come from Billy Graham's association because they are in league with Catholicism. Unless of course you don't have a problem with Catholicism.

Again, you are confusing a past life of sin with the current change of heart that is seeking to put that kind of life behind them. Zacchaeus was giving up a good portion of his wealth and paying back those he cheated. This is why salvation came to his house that day. Zacchaeus did not say to Jesus that he was going to accumulate more wealth and cheat more people with Jesus saying salvation has come to his house that day.

It's not personal. Their beliefs and actions simply do not align with the Bible. We are to earnestly contend for the faith according to Scripture. If something does not line up with God's Word, we are to expose such wrong beliefs that run contrary to His Word that can lead others down a wrong path.

I understand your premises. I hope you talk directly to Billy Graham’s association and discuss. I hope you and Billy Graham’s association speak the truth in love, bear one another in love, make every efforts to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Fervent · Sep 24, 2020

Reading through this thread is at once shocking, saddening, and yet entirely predictable. That professed believers would be arguing that following Jesus is not a requirement of salvation boggles the mind. A faith devoid of discipleship to me is not a faith worth having.

Jesus is the reward of the believer, and His commands are a joy. Joining with Him in His suffering is among the highest rewards we can receive in this life, and the relationship that proceeds from discipleship speaks of the things to come.

So I can't help but wonder what someone who thinks they are "saved" apart from discipleship thinks salvation is. I cannot imagine what the reward for that "believer" is and the whole enterprise speaks of a misunderstanding of who God is and who we are.

Giving my life over to Christ has been the greatest source of joy in my life, and to deny it as a requirement of salvation seems to me to seek to be saved apart from Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2020

RDKirk said:
You rejected your own earlier argument about sin to come up with that.

I can extrapolate abortion to murder. You can't, unless you reject your own definition of sin.

I did not reject anything. You fail to understand the basic concept that abortion is murder.

So what is growing inside a woman when she is pregnant with a baby?
Is it the living dead? A zombie? It's not a human person growing inside her?
See, that is what is dumb about your argument. You don't see a baby growing inside a pregnant woman as a living human being. You need to check reality, brother. If the baby is alive growing inside her than it is a living human being that can be killed or murdered. In fact, that is what abortion is. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to figure this out.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2020

SANTOSO said:
I understand your premises. I hope you talk directly to Billy Graham’s association and discuss. I hope you and Billy Graham’s association speak the truth in love, bear one another in love, make every efforts to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Not gonna happen. Billy Graham's association is against the truths in the Bible. If I encountered them directly in person, I would reprove them with Scripture (Lord willing).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2020

Fervent said:
Reading through this thread is at once shocking, saddening, and yet entirely predictable. That professed believers would be arguing that following Jesus is not a requirement of salvation boggles the mind. A faith devoid of discipleship to me is not a faith worth having.

Jesus is the reward of the believer, and His commands are a joy. Joining with Him in His suffering is among the highest rewards we can receive in this life, and the relationship that proceeds from discipleship speaks of the things to come.

So I can't help but wonder what someone who thinks they are "saved" apart from discipleship thinks salvation is. I cannot imagine what the reward for that "believer" is and the whole enterprise speaks of a misunderstanding of who God is and who we are.

Giving my life over to Christ has been the greatest source of joy in my life, and to deny it as a requirement of salvation seems to me to seek to be saved apart from Christ.

What joy will Heaven hold for the sinner? Heaven is a holy place without sin. God is holy and His angels are holy. The believer who justifies sin now would not like heaven in their current state of mind. They will find it repulsive and boring because they cannot justify sin there. God will not allow for sin to exist there. It is a holy place full of the love of God and loving others and it is a place of fair justice. Of course they think they will be changed to be there. But that is not how things work. The purpose of Sanctification is to prepare us to meet God in Heaven. To live with God who is holy and to be in a holy place. For God says be ye holy because I am holy.

BNR32FAN · Sep 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
No. I am saying that a believer must reckon themselves dead to sin and be planted in the likeness of Christ's death in order to overcome mortal sin. They have to be dead to the old man and thus they will be freed from mortal sin. Some believers never do this because they think it is impossible. Other believers will not do this perfectly, but they will in time overcome mortal sin. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (i.e. in the case of topic of discussion here, this would be mortal sin). Other believers simply fail and give back into sin because they love their sin more than God. Some will overcome, and others will not. It's not a contradiction. We learn in the “Parable of the Sower” that one seed totally rejected the Word, and two fell away, and one brought forth much fruit.

I disagree with this brother. In one post your saying Jesus put the flesh to death but here it appears your saying we must put it to death. I don’t believe glorification can be attained in this life. I don’t believe we can achieve perfection in this life.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree with this brother. In one post your saying Jesus put the flesh to death but here it appears your saying we must put it to death. I don’t believe glorification can be attained in this life. I don’t believe we can achieve perfection in this life.

I was actually just thinking about you a few moments ago (before you replied), and God brought to my attention to tell you 1 John 2:1. The apostle John told us to “sin not.” If such a command was impossible, then why would he tell us to do that? That would be like John trying to tell us to jump off buildings and flap our arms in order to fly. Even Jesus told two people to, “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Anyways, I believe Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because I believe it is primarily dealing with putting away imperfections of our character or minor faults that do not lead to spiritual death or condemnation in hell fire in the afterlife (Note: We are not allowed to promote Sinless Perfection or discuss it at great length in this section of the forums; If you want to do so, check out my thread here, brother).

Believers have to overcome mortal sin (or grievous sin) in this life (This would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, idolatry, lying, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14). “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:16).

BNR32FAN · Sep 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I was actually just thinking about you a few moments ago (before you replied), and God brought to my attention to tell you 1 John 2:1. The apostle John told us to “sin not.” If such a command was impossible, then why would he tell us to do that? That would be like John trying to tell us to jump off buildings and flap our arms in order to fly. Even Jesus told two people to, “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Anyways, I believe Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because I believe it is primarily dealing with putting away imperfections of our character or minor faults that do not lead to spiritual death or condemnation in hell fire in the afterlife (Note: We are not allowed to promote Sinless Perfection or discuss it at great length in this section of the forums; If you want to do so, check out my thread here, brother).

Believers have to overcome mortal sin (or grievous sin) in this life (This would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, idolatry, lying, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14). “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:16).

One example I’d like to share on this topic is Paul’s indications of his struggle with his conflicting natures. He said I ran the good race, I fought the good fight. This to me seems to give an indication that even Paul himself struggled with temptation and sin. I think he makes this clear in Romans 7:14-25. The one thing I see that is constant throughout the scriptures is the urgency of believers to refrain from sin but the one thing I can’t find anywhere is any indication that anyone other than Christ has ever been able to achieve this.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 25, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
One example I’d like to share on this topic is Paul’s indications of his struggle with his conflicting natures. He said I ran the good race, I fought the good fight.

Again, no doubt believers can wrestle with temptation. But there does come a point where the faithful believer will in time overcome mortal sin in this life by the power of God and by applying His Word. If this is not the case, then God's people are ruled by the devil's kingdom because sin is the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 says he that sins is of the devil. John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light.

Fighting does not always indicate that you have failed or you have stumbled in the fight or battle. Fighting the good fight of faith mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:7 is in context or view of standing up for the truth of God's Word and exposing error. 2 Timothy 4:3 says, “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.” 2 Timothy 4:4-5 says, “They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.” This is in context of view of fighting good fight of faith. Granted, fighting the good fight of faith can be battling with sin, but it is in cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of God according to 2 Corinthians 7:1. You are simply not believing that verse. Neither are you believing 1 John 2:1 where John tells us to “sin not.”

Yes, we can wrestle with spiritual wickedness in high places, but our goal in putting on the armor of God is to be able to stand. But one is not standing if they are stumbling all the time or they have a mindset that they will always fail and never stand.

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:” (Ephesians 6:10-17).

Is the believer standing against the wiles of the devil if they are always being defeated by the wiles of the devil's temptations?

You said:
This to me seems to give an indication that even Paul himself struggled with temptation and sin. I think he makes this clear in Romans 7:14-25.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In other words, Paul's words are the easiest to turn God's grace into a license for immorality, and many do just that.

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Source used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

You said:
The one thing I see that is constant throughout the scriptures is the urgency of believers to refrain from sin but the one thing I can’t find anywhere is any indication that anyone other than Christ has ever been able to achieve this.

Check out the verses in this CF thread link below. Just read the verses and believe them and do not try to change what they say.

What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

Butch5 · Oct 4, 2020

Basketball said:
EDIT: I still believe to be saved: Believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. (Believe means to have faith and trust in Jesus Christ to save you)

Is it discipleship to commit your life to Jesus to be saved? When you make the decision to get saved by believing on Jesus you can say I commit to Jesus but it remains to be seen if you actually follow through on it. I do not think you have to commit your life to Jesus to be saved.

However I read on Billy Graham's website the following:

"To believe in Jesus, the Bible says, is to commit our lives to Him and to trust Him totally and completely for our salvation."

Website link: What does it mean to believe in Jesus?

"What does it mean to commit your life to Jesus Christ? Let me illustrate it this way. I notice from your letter that you are married. What exactly happened when you said, “I do”? Before then, you undoubtedly believed you truly loved your future husband, and that he loved you. But something happened during your wedding ceremony: You both made a vow to be committed to each other for the rest of your lives. You no longer just believed you loved each other — you now were committed to each other.

The same is true when we come to Jesus Christ. We may believe He existed; we may even believe He gave His life for us to purchase our salvation. But something else needs to take place: We need to commit our lives to Him — to trust Him completely as our Savior, and vow to follow Him as our Lord."

Website link: I notice in your column that you often tell people to commit their lives to Jesus, but what exactly does that mean?

The apostles were told to go and make disciples. Jesus had told them to, "follow me". He didn't say here are a few words of truth believe them and you're saved.

Is commiting your life to Jesus works?

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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