The Resurrection of Jesus

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for taking the time to detail out your position on this. I appreciate the effort.
I chose the second paragraph to respond to, but will respond in general to the whole thing.

Yes, I certainly see doctrines as man-made. An attempt to codify what we believe.
And the creeds were created to do this as well, but in a very concise manner.
The later creeds were created to include more doctrinal hairsplitting than the previous ones. A product of committees with a broader range of doctrinal beliefs to satisfy.

And this is where the problem comes in. If we claim that doctrines are the gospel, or that the gospel is doctrine, who's doctrine will we use? There is a broad range of doctrinal opinion. Do a search on the term "doctrinal disagreement", and see what comes up.

The point I have always insisted on here is that God approaches individuals in their complete ignorance of doctrine. Restoring a relationship with Him is all that matters. Doctrine has nothing to do with it. The individual has a spiritual void that only God's presence can fill. That is enough. Doctrine comes later, if at all. No one is saved by doctrine.

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So here is where we differ and I appreciate your response.

Just telling someone John 3:16 and accept Jesus is not the gospel. But that is what happens in Christianity all the time. That is not the gospel but is a part of it and in John 3 there is a whole story behind those words between Jesus and Nicodemus that somehow never gets told in presenting John 3:16. We cannot separate the faith once and for all delivered from the saints from the gospel message, they are the same. How can a person have faith in a God they know nothing about and be saved ?

Who and what are they placing their faith in and why ?

Why does a person even need to be saved ?

Do they know why ?

Do they know what sin is and what it cost the Savior ?

The story needs to be told about Jesus, who He is , what He has done and not just accept Him without knowing anything about Him, sin, sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection.

And walking a person through this with Scripture and reading it to them or quoting it if you have it memorized is the power of God unto salvation as Paul says in Romans 1:16- the Gospel message is that power God uses to transform a person from death to life, dead in sin to being alive in Christ. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ. We are born again by the incorruptible seed- the word of God as Peter declares in his epistle.

hope this helps !!!

Saint Steven said:

No wonder no one can understand what you are talking about.

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are you a spiritual man ? yes or no

do you have a physical human body? yes or no

or are you a spirit with no body ? yes or no

I rest my case.

parousia70 said:

Post Ascension, Christ appears to Paul as a LIGHT, but no man (Acts 9:3, 7-8). Therefore we understand that the NATURE of a heavenly spiritual body is NOT the same as our earthly bodies (1 Cor 15:44-50). Therefore we may boldly say with the apostle Paul that "though we have known Christ after the flesh, we know him in this way no longer" (2 Cor 5:16). We may boldly call Jesus the King Eternal Immortal INVISIBLE (1 Tim 1:17) and say that "he alone has immortality dwelling in light which no man has seen NOR CAN SEE (1 Tim 6:16). These are ALL proper understandings of Christ's post ascension body. Christ's spiritual body is simply not limited to his incarnational earthly body any more, and even WE here and now are mystically part of that Body of Christ. His body is a mystery (Eph 5:30-32).

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The very spirit of antichrist teaches that Jesus no longer remains in the flesh.

John says this is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate in the flesh ?

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

All these Greek scholars are in agreement that Jesus is still in the flesh, a man with a real human body of flesh as the Creeds of Christendom proclaim and the Apostles in the N.T. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. Luke 24:39

Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7


Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)

Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)

Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)

Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)

Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.

Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ‎eleeluthota ‎"has come

Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh ‎Ieesoun ‎‎Christon ‎‎erchomenon ‎‎en ‎‎sarki‎. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of ‎erchomai ‎treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have ‎eleeluthota ‎(perfect active participle) in this same construction with ‎homologeoo‎, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.

hope this helps !!!

Saint Steven said:

Are you discrediting those who receive Christ based on something short of what you consider to be the whole gospel? And who determines what that means? How can these things be measured?

In my experience, the initial salvation event is emotional, not intellectual. A person comes to God because they have nowhere else to turn. I doesn't matter what the message is, or how complete it is. If it seems trustworthy to them, they will go with it.

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thats the problem emotions and experiences are misleading.

Saint Steven said:

At the point of salvation, anyone knows enough about God to be saved.

The initial decision is emotional, not intellectual.

We all have a God shaped void inside of us that only he can fill.
Do you have to understand how an oil refinery works to fill the gas tank on your car?

In most cases, no.

Most people understand that basic concept. But it's not terribly important to the transaction.

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then the gospel was never presented so a person cannot be saved its simple as that steven

what is the gospel ?

what would you say to your neighbor if they ask how to be saved ?

Saint Steven said:

My spiritual part is nonphysical by definition.

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way to avoid the obvious.

Saint Steven said:

Say what?

Saint Steven said: ↑
My spiritual part is nonphysical by definition.

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are you a man with a physical human body of flesh ? yes or no

Saint Steven said:

Well, I am certainly MORE than just that. - lol

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Now we are getting somewhere. So you as a spiritual man are body, soul and spirit. The spiritual man is one who is controlled by the Spirit of the living God, not the flesh even though we live in our human bodies.

parousia70 said:

And yet you claim the apocalypse and His second advent has nothing to do with the resurrection??

Seriously?

.

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Don't you see the irony with parousia and denying Jesus is a man at His 2nd Coming ?

Do you even understand the meaning of the name and title of " the Son of man " ?

Do you understand the human lineage of Jesus in the gospels ?

What is means that He is the son of David, Abraham etc... ?

Romans 1:1-4

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Lets examine some of Jesus declarations about being the son of man (adam, humanity, a human being). He used this term describing His death, burial and Resurrection from the dead. He also used this phrase about His future Kingdom, Reign and Judgment at the end of the age. This would mean that Jesus not only considered Himself to be human while He walked this earth but also in the future at His 2nd Coming in Judgment. He also describes Himself at the right hand of God as a human post Resurrection/ Ascension.

Son of man
— (1.) Denotes mankind generally, with special reference to their weakness and frailty (Job 25:6; Ps 8:4; 144:3; 146:3; Isa 51:12, etc.).

(2.) It is a title frequently given to the prophet Ezekiel, probably to remind him of his human weakness.

(3.) In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour. In the Old Testament it is used only in Ps 80:17 and Dan 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body (Heb 2:14; Luke 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

And the SON of MAN is Coming again in the future as a man to rule and reign as promised at His Parousia and /Epephenia. They are the same event. His appearing/coming.

2 Thes 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance(epiphenia) of His coming(parousia);


Matt 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matt 13:40-41
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Matt 17:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

Matt 24:27-31
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matt 24:44
So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Matt 25:31-33
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Matt 26:64-66
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.

Acts 7:54-60
When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.


"Son of man" is a common term in the Psalms, used to accentuate the difference between God and human beings. As in Ps. viii. 4 (A. V. 5), the phrase implies "mortality," "impotence," "transientness,"as against the omnipotence and eternality of God. Yhwh looks down from His throne in heaven upon the "children," or "sons," of "man" (Ps. xi. 4, xxxiii. 13). The faithful fail among them (Ps. xii. 2 [A. V. 1]); the seed of Yhwh's enemies will not abide among the "children of men" (Ps. xxi. 10). "Children of men" is thus equivalent to "mankind" (Ps. xxxvi. 8 [A. V. 7], lxvi. 5).

"Sons of men," or "children of men," designates also the slanderers and evil-doers in contrast to the righteous, that is, Israel (Ps. lvii. 5 [A. V. 4], lviii. 2 [A. V. 1]). It occurs most frequently, however, as a synonym for "mankind," "the human race" (Ps. xc. 3, cvii. 8, cxv. 16, cxlv. 12); it has this sense also in the passage in which wisdom is said to delight with the "sons of men" (Prov. viii. 31). Job(xvi. 21) employs the expression in the passionate plea for his rights while he is contending against God and against his neighbors. But Bildad insists that the "son of man," who is a mere worm, can not be justified with God (Job xxv. 4-6). In the same spirit the prophet (Isa. li. 12) censures Israel for being afraid of "the son of man which shall be made as grass" when Yhwh is their Comforter; but in Isa. lvi. 2-3 the Sabbath is extolled as making the "son of man" (i.e., any man, regardless of birth) blessed; indeed, God has His eyes "open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways" (Jer. xxxii. 19). Jewish Encyclopedia


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Concerning his Son - This is connected with the first verse, with the word "gospel." The gospel of God concerning his Son. The design of the gospel was to make a communication relative to his Son Jesus Christ. This is the whole of it. There is no "good news" to man respecting salvation except what comes by Jesus Christ.

Which was made - The word translated "was made" means usually "to be," or "to become." It is used, however, in the sense of being born. Thus, Galatians 4:4, "God sent forth his Son made of a woman," born of a woman. John 8:58, "before Abraham was (born), I am." In this sense it seems to be used here, who was born, or descended from the seed of David.

Of the seed of David - Of the posterity or lineage of David. He was a descendant of David. David was perhaps the most illustrious of the kings of Israel. The promise to him was that there should not fail a man to sit on this throne; 1 Kings 2:4; 1 Kings 8:25; 1 Kings 9:5; 2 Chronicles 6:16. This ancient promise was understood as referring to the Messiah, and hence, in the New Testament he is called the descendant of David, and so much pains is taken to show that he was of his line; Luke 1:27; Matthew 9:27; Matthew 15:22; Matthew 12:23; Matthew 21:9, Matthew 21:15; Matthew 22:42, Matthew 22:45; John 7:42; 2 Timothy 2:8. As the Jews universally believed that the Messiah would be descended from David John 7:42, it was of great importance for the sacred writers to make it out clearly that Jesus of Nazareth was of that line and family. Hence, it happened, that though our Saviour was humble, and poor, and obscure, yet he had that on which no small part of the world have been accustomed so much to pride themselves, an illustrious ancestry. To a Jew there could be scarcely any honor so high as to be descended from the best of their kings; and it shows how little the Lord Jesus esteemed the honors of this world, that he could always evince his deep humility in circumstances where people are usually proud; and that when he spoke of the honors of this world, and told how little they were worth, he was not denouncing what was not within his reach.

According to the flesh - The word "flesh," σάρξ sarx, is used in the Scriptures in a great variety of significations.

(1) it denotes, as with us, the flesh literally of any living being; Luke 24:39, "A spirit hath not flesh and bones," etc.

(2) the animal system, the body, including flesh and bones, the visible part of man, in distinction from the invisible, or the soul; Acts 2:31, "Neither did his flesh (his body) "see corruption." 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 15:39.

(3) the man, the whole animated system, body and soul; Romans 8:3, "In the likeness of sinful flesh. 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 16:17; Luke 3:6.

(4) human nature. As a man. Thus, Acts 2:30, "God hath sworn with an oath that of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh, that is, in his human nature, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." Romans 9:5, "whose are the fathers, and of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever." The same is its meaning here. He was a descendant of David in his human nature, or as a man. This implies, of course, that he had another nature besides his human, or that while he was a man he was also something else; that there was a nature in which he was not descended from David.

That this is its meaning will still further appear by the following observations.

(1) the apostle expressly makes a contrast between his condition according to the flesh, and that according to the spirit of holiness.

(2) the expression "according to the flesh" is applied to no other one in the New Testament but to Jesus Christ. Though the word "flesh" often occurs, and is often used to denote man, yet the special expression, "according to the flesh" occurs in no other connection.

In all the Scriptures it is never said of any prophet or apostle, any lawgiver or king, or any man in any capacity, that he came in the flesh, or that he was descended from certain ancestors according to the flesh. Nor is such an expression ever used any where else. If it were applied to a mere man, we should instantly ask in what other way could he come than in the flesh? Has he a higher nature? Is he an angel, or a seraph? The expression would be unmeaningful. And when, therefore, it is applied to Jesus Christ, it implies, if language has any meaning, that there was a sense in which Jesus was not descended from David. What that was, appears in the next verse.

So just as the Son of God means Christ has a Divine nature, the very nature of God so does the son of man means that Christ has a human nature, that of a man. Not a spirit.

BTW- all the Hebrew and Greek scholars are in agreement as to the meaning of the son of man being a man its irrefutable.

hope this helps !!!

One must deny the plain meaning of language in Scripture to declare Jesus is no longer a man.

1-Resurrection must be changed from body to without a body
2-Body(soma) always means physical in nature never immaterial regarding man
3-son of man must be changed to mean not human
4-flesh and bones must be changed to mean not real flesh
5- Jesus said He was flesh and bones not a spirit

and the list goes on and on. The biblical view harmonizes all the above like I have demonstrated in this thread.

hope this helps !!!