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Timtofly

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It occurred to me today that Jesus said two things that are seemingly a paradox.

1. When the bridegroom comes the virgins have fallen asleep and it is the midnight hour. Apparently He has taken longer than expected. This sentiment is echoed in Peter and other places.

then

2. He says "behold I come quickly".

So how can both be true? First it is easy to see that Jesus has come later than expected, I present that aspect in post #16. But He can also come quickly. There is only a single moment when the entire Earth is going to be in a single day. For the vast majority of believers their day begins at midnight (ironic) but this day must begin at sunset because all of the feast days have been predictive of the key events in the New Testament, and those days so far have all begun at sunset. So the day begins six hours sooner than the vast majority of believers will be expecting.
The time zone starts in the Pacific. Unless the earth is flat, then it does not matter?

It is day time for some believers no matter the time in the ME.
 
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ZNP

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There is another very interesting little quirk about time. Our system of time is not based on sunrise and sunset. Since the dates in the Bible are based on that then there are only 2 days a year when the entire earth could be on the same day based on sunrise and sunset, this is due to the tilt of the earth's axis. The two days are the two equinoxes. One of those two days is September 22nd. That means sundown on the 22nd, the start of the 23rd will be the same everywhere on the earth (6pm). However, I doubt God would be using GMT, rather he would set His prime meridian in Jerusalem. That means at 6am, early in the morning on the third day in Jerusalem it is the 23rd for the entire earth. Since the rapture is a worldwide event concerning His body it seems that this would be a factor. But the chances of this being a coincidence: choosing this particular day for an event that will take place all around the globe at an instant on the only day where you could actually do that is 182:1
 
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ZNP

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There is another very interesting little quirk about time. Our system of time is not based on sunrise and sunset. Since the dates in the Bible are based on that then there are only 2 days a year when the entire earth could be on the same day based on sunrise and sunset, this is due to the tilt of the earth's axis. The two days are the two equinoxes. One of those two days is September 22nd. That means sundown on the 22nd, the start of the 23rd will be the same everywhere on the earth (6pm). However, I doubt God would be using GMT, rather he would set His prime meridian in Jerusalem. That means at 6am, early in the morning on the third day in Jerusalem it is the 23rd for the entire earth. Since the rapture is a worldwide event concerning His body it seems that this would be a factor. But the chances of this being a coincidence: choosing this particular day for an event that will take place all around the globe at an instant on the only day where you could actually do that is 182:1
Another interesting point on this is that the term "in the twinkling of an eye" is a Jewish idiom for twilight, the diffuse light at sunrise or sunset.

These are two halves of the same thing -- Jesus resurrection and the rapture of the saints. couple of similarities

1. Jesus was put in the tomb right at the start of the sabbath

This Yom Teruah began at the Sabbath.

2. Jesus rose early in the morning 3 days later.

If the rapture takes place at 6am on Sept 23 in Jerusalem it will also be early in the morning 3 days later.

It will be in the twinkling of an eye.

It will be later than expected

He will be coming quickly as the whole world sees midnight as the start of the day, whereas this festival will be starting six hours earlier.
 
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CanoeSister

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1. Jesus was put in the tomb right at the start of the sabbath

This has been quite the interesting discussion to read through, so far. :) I love all the deep thoughts that have gone into it. I myself have studied eschatology extensively, so I would love to jump in here and engage in the dialog about it.

Looking for a moment at the amount of time that Christ was in the Tomb, it came as a surprise to me when I studied and studied and discovered that Christ must have been put into the tomb before sundown on Wednesday.

You see, we know He was buried on "Preparation Day," which is the day before a Sabbath. Most people assume it was the weekly Sabbath, but actually when one is going into the Feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread then it also kicks off with a "High Sabbath," which is a Sabbath based not on day of the week but rather day of the month - because it lines up with the Feast itself.

John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Is it possible that the weekly Sabbath happened to be, on that year, to be on the same day as the High Sabbath?

I found that it's not possible, given the record about the timing of women *buying* spices (can't be done on Sabbath) and mixing the spices (takes hours, and is hard work):

Mark 16:1
Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

[Purchase happened on the day after the high Sabbath]

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

[Preparation of spices happened before the Sabbath]

So, the only way this all fits together is this way:

Wednesday: Christ is crucified, and then buried in the tomb before sundown

Thursday: The High Sabbath, women rest
Friday: The women purchase and prepare the spices
Saturday: Then they rest on the Sabbath

Sunday: At sunrise, the tomb is found by the women to be empty

----

Now, going back to the topic of being caught up with Jesus at his return, I do agree with you that there are various connections between the Feast of Trumpets and His Return. However, we won't be able to make sense of it all together unless we realize that the rapture will be at His return, the Second Coming, the start of the 1000 year reign. It will not be before the tribulation.

Here's where I find that in the Scriptures: There are 3 passages that teach specifically about the rapture. One of them is in Matthew 24, one of them is in Thessalonians, and one of them is in Corinthians.

So, first, if we look at Thessalonians, we find that the rapture *certainly* will come after the first resurrection, and in fact the rapture "will by no means preceded" that first resurrection. Corinthians does not state it as emphatically, but lists that same order: first the dead rise, and then us living believers are raptured. Take a look:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-43
‘Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality”

So then the discussion becomes: When will the dead be resurrected? Some people say that it already happened when Christ rose or Lazarus rose - but that doesn't make sense, given that those already happened before these two Books of the Bible were written, and these Books clearly are referring to a future event. When will the dead rise?

We find the answer clearly laid out in Revelation 20, which is about Christ's 2nd Coming and the beginning of the 1000 year reign:

Revelation 20:4-6
“ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.“

Okay, so when Christ returns, that is when we will see the first resurrection, and thus that is when we will then meet the Lord in the air.

Does this line up with what Matthew 24:29-31 says about the rapture? Yes! Here it is:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those day... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So we see the same order:
Tribulation, Coming of Christ, Rapture.
 
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Jipsah

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Satan’s 3.5 years runs from April 2023 to October 2026.
Well there ya are then! Although I still have my copy of "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988" just in case.
 
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ZNP

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This has been quite the interesting discussion to read through, so far. :) I love all the deep thoughts that have gone into it. I myself have studied eschatology extensively, so I would love to jump in here and engage in the dialog about it.

Looking for a moment at the amount of time that Christ was in the Tomb, it came as a surprise to me when I studied and studied and discovered that Christ must have been put into the tomb before sundown on Wednesday.

You see, we know He was buried on "Preparation Day," which is the day before a Sabbath. Most people assume it was the weekly Sabbath, but actually when one is going into the Feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread then it also kicks off with a "High Sabbath," which is a Sabbath based not on day of the week but rather day of the month - because it lines up with the Feast itself.

John 19:31
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Is it possible that the weekly Sabbath happened to be, on that year, to be on the same day as the High Sabbath?

I found that it's not possible, given the record about the timing of women *buying* spices (can't be done on Sabbath) and mixing the spices (takes hours, and is hard work):

Mark 16:1
Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

[Purchase happened on the day after the high Sabbath]

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

[Preparation of spices happened before the Sabbath]

So, the only way this all fits together is this way:

Wednesday: Christ is crucified, and then buried in the tomb before sundown

Thursday: The High Sabbath, women rest
Friday: The women purchase and prepare the spices
Saturday: Then they rest on the Sabbath

Sunday: At sunrise, the tomb is found by the women to be empty

----

Now, going back to the topic of being caught up with Jesus at his return, I do agree with you that there are various connections between the Feast of Trumpets and His Return. However, we won't be able to make sense of it all together unless we realize that the rapture will be at His return, the Second Coming, the start of the 1000 year reign. It will not be before the tribulation.

Here's where I find that in the Scriptures: There are 3 passages that teach specifically about the rapture. One of them is in Matthew 24, one of them is in Thessalonians, and one of them is in Corinthians.

So, first, if we look at Thessalonians, we find that the rapture *certainly* will come after the first resurrection, and in fact the rapture "will by no means preceded" that first resurrection. Corinthians does not state it as emphatically, but lists that same order: first the dead rise, and then us living believers are raptured. Take a look:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-43
‘Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality”

So then the discussion becomes: When will the dead be resurrected? Some people say that it already happened when Christ rose or Lazarus rose - but that doesn't make sense, given that those already happened before these two Books of the Bible were written, and these Books clearly are referring to a future event. When will the dead rise?

We find the answer clearly laid out in Revelation 20, which is about Christ's 2nd Coming and the beginning of the 1000 year reign:

Revelation 20:4-6
“ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.“

Okay, so when Christ returns, that is when we will see the first resurrection, and thus that is when we will then meet the Lord in the air.

Does this line up with what Matthew 24:29-31 says about the rapture? Yes! Here it is:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those day... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So we see the same order:
Tribulation, Coming of Christ, Rapture.
thanks, very informative. Couple of questions.

1. I have been very impressed that the 7 yearly festivals are major events in this age and that the next one will be the Festival of Trumpets.

So a really rough understanding of these three is that the festival of trumpets is both the coronation and wedding of the king

Atonement is the return of the king and the Great white throne judgement

Tabernacles is the millennial kingdom

So I was hoping you could either reconcile this to your post trib interpretation, or indicate why many are mistaken.

2. I understand there is a Bema judgement and the Great White Throne judgement. There are two, and the Bema is likened to the awarding of the gold medal at the Olympics, which is a judgement, only it is where some get a reward. So in your interpretation where does the Bema judgement fall?

3. In Thessalonians why does Paul say "we who are alive and remain", what does the term "remain" mean?

4. Jesus likened the rapture to entering the ark and then the door closing at the start of the flood. A very interesting point since the festival of trumpets is said to be when the door in heaven opens. If the tribulation is the flood then how does your interpretation align with that? Wouldn't you be raptured prior to the flood?

5. Jesus is the savior, that is our testimony, yet none of the believers get saved from the great tribulation?
 
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ZNP

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Well there ya are then! Although I still have my copy of "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988" just in case.
I was reading Luke 24 recently, the sisters were in the cemetery looking for Jesus and the Angel said He wasn't there, "why are you seeking the living among the dead". Too bad you weren't there, you could have been mocking them for making a mistake.

BTW there were a bunch of disciples who weren't there, didn't make that mistake. Are we to understand from your post that it would have been better to just sit at home with Thomas knowing that if and when Jesus rises from the dead we'll know then? I call that the "ho hum, it will all work out in the end" theory of the rapture. Is that the one you subscribe to?

I was also reading recently where the Lord talked about one of His servants saying in their heart that the Lord "delays His coming" and so started to beat the fellow servants. I thought, that is strange, why would you beat your fellow servants just because you thought the Lord was delaying His coming? Could it be that some servants are ashamed of those who are proclaiming Christ's coming? Does it make it hard for them to blend in with the world? You do realize that the rapture of the saints at the end of the age will be a very strong testimony to the world. Everyone knows this doctrine of the rapture, just like all those at Noah's time knew he was kook predicting some great catastrophic flood.
 
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Timtofly

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Well there ya are then! Although I still have my copy of "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988" just in case.
There is not going to be a human Antichrist figure prior to that or the Second Coming either. I do not know when the rapture happens, but I know when it is not going to happen. It is not going to happen at the battle of Armageddon.
 
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CanoeSister

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1. I have been very impressed that the 7 yearly festivals are major events in this age and that the next one will be the Festival of Trumpets.

So a really rough understanding of these three is that the festival of trumpets is both the coronation and wedding of the king

Atonement is the return of the king and the Great white throne judgement

Tabernacles is the millennial kingdom

So I was hoping you could either reconcile this to your post trib interpretation, or indicate why many are mistaken.

Well, let's see. Recently I had the privilege of being taught about the Feast of Trumpets from a Jewish Messianic Congregation. We looked up Trumpets and their meaning throughout the whole Bible, and the spiritual meaning of Trumpets are primarily:

- Worship
- Warfare
- God's presence

The literal meaning of Shofar (the Hebrew trumpet) is "to cut through." In worship, our praise crosses through from the physical realm to the spiritual realm. In warfare, the defenses and offensive tactics of the enemy are breached. [See also: The battle of Jericho] And when it comes to the presence of God, it is when He comes through from the spiritual realm into the physical realm in all His glory that it is declared with a trumpet. We read about the Mt. Sinai encounter here:

Exodus 19:18-19
"Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly. And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice."

So, what will the final and complete fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets be? I think the full End Times, starting with 7 Trumpets of Revelation (aptly named), including the Worship of the Saints even as they are martyred for their bold witness ("And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." Rev 12:11), and concluding with the full glory of God being revealed once again as Jesus Christ descends from Heaven to make war with the Beast and to begin the 1,000 year reign. It has all 3 elements: Warfare, Worship, and the Presence of the Full Glory of God.

2. I understand there is a Bema judgement and the Great White Throne judgement. There are two, and the Bema is likened to the awarding of the gold medal at the Olympics, which is a judgement, only it is where some get a reward. So in your interpretation where does the Bema judgement fall?

Since the Scripture seems (to me) to be silent on the timing of the Bema judgment, then I really don't know if it is during the White Throne Judgment, or afterwards.

But I think it can't before, since the Resurrection of ALL saints (not just the beheaded ones) doesn't happen until immediately preceding the White Throne Judgment mentioned in Revelation 20.

3. In Thessalonians why does Paul say "we who are alive and remain", what does the term "remain" mean?

I think it means that those of us who are alive and remain here on the earth. In a sense, even those who are "asleep" in Christ are alive, for they are spiritually alive, and "shall not see death, but have passed from death into life." So, to specify the physically alive people who have survived all the way through to the end of the Great Tribulation then the term "alive and remain" is used.

4. Jesus likened the rapture to entering the ark and then the door closing at the start of the flood. A very interesting point since the festival of trumpets is said to be when the door in heaven opens. If the tribulation is the flood then how does your interpretation align with that? Wouldn't you be raptured prior to the flood?

I'm not exactly sure which passage you are referring to, when you say that Jesus likened the rapture to entering the ark.

What comes to mind is Jesus saying that the End Times will be like the Times of Noah (great wickedness, and also people marrying and giving in marriage without any idea that they were that close to the end).

And then the only thing I remember Jesus saying about the rapture is the passage I quoted from Matthew 24, which begins with the phrase "after the tribulation."

My understanding of the New Testament type of Ark is that Jesus Christ is the Ark that we (all believers, not just End Times believers) are placed into:

1 Peter 3:20b-21
"...once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Romans 6:3
"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?"

That is my understanding. When God's wrath was poured out on the world in the time of Noah, Noah was not removed from the world. He was in the world, and yet he was under God's Favor and not under God's Wrath. Even so, us believers who are SAFE inside Christ Jesus, we will be removed from the world, when God's Wrath is poured out on the world, but we will be under God's Favor.

5. Jesus is the savior, that is our testimony, yet none of the believers get saved from the great tribulation?

Let's start by looking at this:

2 Corinthians 1:8
"For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life."

1 Peter 4:12-13
"Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy"

So, we are forewarned that Christians will be no strangers to suffering. And we also notice:

- Some believers have died by being burned alive (William Tyndale, for example)

- Some believers have died by crucifixion (Peter, for instance)

- Some believers have died by torture (Modern home-church attendees in China)

- Some believers have been torn to pieces by lions (Time of Nero, for instance)

Christ was their Savior, and yet He did not save them from suffering and a blood death. How exactly was He their SAVIOR then? What did He save them from?

A - The power of sin over their life (Regeneration, Indwelling of the Spirit)
B - The presence of sin in their life (Santification)
C - The penalty of sin in the afterlife (Hell, the Second death)

We are saved from Spiritual death and brought into Spiritual Life, and that Life He gives us abundantly! But even so, there are 0 guarantees in the Bible that we will be saved from suffering or martyrdom. He may not call all of us to martyrdom, but each of us must know that we MAY be one of those who is "faithful unto death" and I would consider it an honor if I die for His name and am among those who:

"[overcome] him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." Rev 12:11

We can be like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who considered both possibilities and boldly stated:

“Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king.

But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”
 
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CanoeSister

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There is not going to be a human Antichrist figure prior to that or the Second Coming either. I do not know when the rapture happens, but I know when it is not going to happen. It is not going to happen at the battle of Armageddon.

What makes you doubt that the times of Revelation fulfillment will have the Beast from the Sea (the antichrist), given that Revelation 13 describes him?
 
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Dan1988

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I get that reasoning. Which is more important to know the material for the exam or to know when the exam is being held?

The issue I have with that reasoning is it makes Jesus and Paul seem misguided since they placed great importance on the need to "watch" so that the day does not come upon you unawares.

Also, I believe studying this has strengthened my faith and appreciation for the glory and majesty of God. It is truly amazing.
The problem I have with bible study is, there are so many ways to interpret scripture. There are hundreds of different interpretations, these have given rise to disintegration of the Church into hundreds of different denominations.

Each denomination claims to posses the truth but they all contradict each other, so I don't believe that possesing the right interpretation has anything to do with salvation. Jesus said, "believe in me and ye shall be saved" and that's good enough for me. He never said "those who arrive at the right interpretation shall be saved".

So I believe saved people can have the wrong view or interpretation, it's not an imperative to be a Christian. God saves Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, He's not impressed with how smart we think we are. He saves dumb sheep, not rocket scientists.
 
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ZNP

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The problem I have with bible study is, there are so many ways to interpret scripture. There are hundreds of different interpretations, these have given rise to disintegration of the Church into hundreds of different denominations.

Each denomination claims to posses the truth but they all contradict each other, so I don't believe that possesing the right interpretation has anything to do with salvation. Jesus said, "believe in me and ye shall be saved" and that's good enough for me. He never said "those who arrive at the right interpretation shall be saved".

So I believe saved people can have the wrong view or interpretation, it's not an imperative to be a Christian. God saves Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, He's not impressed with how smart we think we are. He saves dumb sheep, not rocket scientists.
Revelation is the toughest because the amount of references to verses in the Bible is completely off the hook. It is the capstone to the NT and without a thorough understanding of the preceding 65 books you can easily get lost. But just because some Christians worship Mary doesn't mean I cut those verses out of my Bible, just because some are into astrology doesn't mean I cut Psalm 19 out of my Bible. I want to be able to read the whole Bible.
 
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ZNP

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Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


.
Yes a reference to both the Festival of Trumpets and to the marriage of the lamb.

The Festival of Trumpets begins on the New Moon. They need two witnesses to testify that they have seen the new moon before blowing the trumpet. The odds that this would happen at exactly sundown is very unrealistic, therefore they give two days for this festival since it will begin in the first and end in the second. Hence the Jewish idiom for this festival was "no one knows the day nor the hour", just like if I said "Turkey day" you would probably understand that to refer to the fourth Thursday in the month of November.

"but my father only" is another Jewish reference to the wedding. A man gets engaged with a marriage contract to a woman, he then has to go and build a house for them. The house is not completed until the father says it is, hence no one knows "but my Father only".

In Jewish tradition the festival of trumpets refers to the Messiah's coronation and to His wedding.
 
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ZNP

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I think it means that those of us who are alive and remain here on the earth. In a sense, even those who are "asleep" in Christ are alive, for they are spiritually alive, and "shall not see death, but have passed from death into life." So, to specify the physically alive people who have survived all the way through to the end of the Great Tribulation then the term "alive and remain" is used.
so you think it is redundant.

I'm not exactly sure which passage you are referring to, when you say that Jesus likened the rapture to entering the ark.
According to the Bible the doors are opened on the Festival of trumpets. Ps 118:
Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord:

is read every year during this feast.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:27

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt 24:33

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Matt 25:10

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1
 
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Dan1988

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Revelation is the toughest because the amount of references to verses in the Bible is completely off the hook. It is the capstone to the NT and without a thorough understanding of the preceding 65 books you can easily get lost. But just because some Christians worship Mary doesn't mean I cut those verses out of my Bible, just because some are into astrology doesn't mean I cut Psalm 19 out of my Bible. I want to be able to read the whole Bible.
That's all well and good, but the problem still remain with all the different interpretations and every denomination claiming they posses the correct view yet they all disagree with each other.

I've read very convincing but conflicting arguments put forward by highly educated bible scholars and theologians. It leaves the layman confused and I'm sure God won't judge a person for his lack of understanding on these peripheral matters.

The only thing that matters in the end is our faith and obedience, God will reveal things to us as we grow. Every Christian changes their view many times during their life, we receive more truth as we grow so we're not finished products as soon as we're saved.
 
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Timtofly

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What makes you doubt that the times of Revelation fulfillment will have the Beast from the Sea (the antichrist), given that Revelation 13 describes him?
That is the false prophet. John never names an antichrist once in Revelation. Your parenthesis is adding to the Word of God.
 
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Timtofly

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Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Sorry, but the end is the end. Are you saying that you can remove 1000 years, but I am not allowed to point out it is the end. There is still 1000 years, but the church and sinful descendants of Adam will not be in the last 1000 years. 6 Days/6000 years. Time is up.

Revelation 10:6-7
“There will be no more delay; on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

This is it. Adam's disobedience. The Atonement on the Cross. The end of Adam's physical punishment of work is over. No more labor from the sweat of the brow. The Second Coming is not the battle of Armageddon in the fall of 2026. The Second Coming can happen at any time.

Why is the plan hidden? Many today have accepted Satan's evolution of millions and billions of years. Some even claimed there may be a gap somewhere in Genesis. No! God created this existence with a finite life of 8000 years. But this plan has been hiding in the Bible since Moses, except in the 1st century, there was still 3000 years left. The church was exhorted to always preach that the end was soon. To keep sin out and the Gospel front and center. That did not stop the church from playing the harlot.

The verse does not say the plan would be revealed at the 7th trumpet. It will be completed. It will remain hidden to many. But that was the hidden plan, that 6 days and no more would complete Adam's punishment. We are at the end, and it is about finished.
 
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CanoeSister

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That is the false prophet. John never names an antichrist once in Revelation. Your parenthesis is adding to the Word of God.

No, the Beast from the Sea is not the false prophet.

Let's take a look:


"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

Okay, so let's take a step back and look at what we have learned here:

Beast #1:
- Is from "the sea"
- Has the healed deadly wound
- Rules the whole earth for 42 months
- Everyone worships him (except for believers)

This is different from Beast #2:
- Is "out of the earth"
- Operates in the presence of the first beast
- Causes people to worship the Beast (whose deadly wound was healed)

These are two separate entities. The Beast from the Earth is the "false prophet," for he plays a supporting role and causes people to worship the first beast.

The Beast from the Sea is the one who will accept worship, and he is the one that we also call "the antichrist" or "son of perdition," which are titles from other Books of the Bible.

So certainly you must accept that during the times of Revelation, we will see SOMEONE (the sea beast) rule over the whole world for 42 months, accept worship, persecute the saints, and have a SIDEKICK (the false prophet, beast from the earth) cause everyone to take a mark and to worship the first beast.
 
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CanoeSister

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so you think it is redundant.

No, it's an emphasis on physical life - as opposed to afterlife and spiritual life. This is important for clarity since technically those who are asleep in Christ are still alive.

It's an important clarification that some of us will be physically alive, when Christ returns.



According to the Bible the doors are opened on the Festival of trumpets. Ps 118:
Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord:

is read every year during this feast.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:27

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt 24:33

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Matt 25:10

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

Okay so you have many quotes about doors. But remember the verse I quoted to you, which taught that the Ark from the Old Testament is only a Type of Baptism into Christ?

Baptism into Christ is called the "antitype," which means it is what the Type (in the past) was a picture of.

Since you seem to doubt this, I will give more Scriptural proof that has to do with your concept of the importance of the door. The door is not the rapture. There are only 3 passages in the New Testament that speak about the rapture - about being caught up - and none of them use the door symbol.

Yet here we see Christ explain the symbol of the door:

John 10:7
Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

John 10:9
"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

So, to recap:
Being inside the Ark is a picture of being baptized into Christ (We are in Christ).
Christ is the DOOR that we need to enter by, and those who have entered are saved.

--------------------------------------------
Now, surely you believe that all Scripture is true.
Surely you do not believe that your theory about doors referring to the rapture could possibly cause you to *ignore* or *reject* the other verses, right?

So, let's go back and look at the clear teaching of the 3 passages on the rapture:

Thessalonians teaches that: The First Resurrection will happen, and then the rapture. It also says that the rapture "will by no means precede" the First Resurrection. That means it cannot happen first.

Revelation teaches us that the First Resurrection happens at the start of the 1,000 year reign, at the time of the Physical Return of Christ to Earth (the Second Coming).

Corinthians tells us that first the First Resurrection will happen, and then the rapture.

Matthew tells us that "after the tribulation," Christ will gather his elect from the 4 winds.

Surely you must acknowledge that these verses are true, and are given by God to inform and prepare us?
 
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