Grace Community Church Defies Court With Packed Sunday Service

Arcangl86 said:

As has been said, none of the freedoms in the Bill of Rights are absolute. It's why we can still outlaw polygamy and human sacrifice. This is a temporary precaution meant to protect the larger community.

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If you can opt out of paying into certain government programs such as social security because of religion, seems obvious that religious communitys can skip certain government " mandates".
I have yet to see an Amish person wearing a mask, either at thier stores they own or in other stores, BTW.. haven't heard of any of them being persecuted because of it.

renniks said:

If you can opt out of paying into certain government programs such as social security because of religion, seems obvious that religious communitys can skip certain government " mandates".
I have yet to see an Amish person wearing a mask, either at thier stores they own or in other stores, BTW.. haven't heard of any of them being persecuted because of it.

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They can opt out because the programs are designed with those opt-outs in mind. As for the Amish thing, you have a point, but I also wonder if it's more of a matter of deciding that it's bad optics to arrest an Amish person. The First Amendment isn't a blanket "opt out" clause.

This article about the Amish might be of interest:

For Pennsylvania’s Amish, the coronavirus and the call for social distancing are a challenge

Tone said:

Alleged remember. And they actually did let many go, because they realized, well, people are people.

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I said convicted or PC to think they committed a crime. The reference to PC is an acknowledgement of alleged to have committed a crime.

Two, emphasizing that people are released from jail weakens your defense of the church to continue its in person services that number into the hundreds. If they are releasing people in jail because of the heightened risk associated with so many people inside, in an effort to reduce the risk, then this makes it all the more compelling church services of the kind under discussion cannot be allowed to continue for the moment. After all, jails are a necessity, and housing people in them is a necessity.

Third, releasing some from jail the and yet there are still 100 people in the dorm does not create a double standard. After all, it is logical there may be a limit as to who they can release, meaning they’ve released who they can without jeopardizing public safety. If after releasing who they can without jeopardizing public safety, and there are still 100 to a dorm, then so be it, but it isn’t any “double standard.”

Did you really think you could make a compelling point here? Really? The purposes of a jail, the reason and purposes of housing and detaining people in jail, is parallel to churches? Really?

Jails do not have to empty, and thereby threaten the safety of the public, because churches cannot congregate. One threatens the public safety, the other does not, and churches temporarily not meeting in public doesn’t jeopardize the safety of the public like releasing criminals. Rather, churches congregating threatens public health and unnecessarily so. Housing people in jail, however, is a necessary risk.

It’s a poor comparison.

People are people.

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But institutions are not all equal, and comparing a jail to a church is apples to oranges. There isn’t a public necessity for people to attend church. There is a public necessity for jails. Jails exist to protect the public and assist in maintaining order by housing criminals and people where PC exists to believe they’ve committed a crime.

Tone said:

Yeah at the local level.

You say Grace are lawbreakers...or lawless (was that you), yet, they aren't being accused of anything.

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I didn’t make those remarks. I did say they are recalcitrant, obstinate, and defying government orders. Defying a government order is tantamount to violating the law. Unlike the pagans and non/believers, this law breaking is justified by non-existent verses and that exacerbates their defiance and reflects poorly on the rest of us.

Tone said:

It's a bit early to make that claim. The scientific methodology is an enterprise not to be rushed...unless, of course, politicking is involved.

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Is it? No. Why? There’s no “rush” in regards to the evidence showing congregating in doors of this size is a elevated risk for spreading COVID and being a super spreading event. There now exists 8 months of international epidemiological investigation of outbreaks. I’ve read it. Here’s but a small slice of it. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/th...dKOKvXiLH5kjgI3q7r1H74sNHkdag-zjwXdivXCuuidfM

Now, the information at the link is the tip of the mountain. There have been many more large in door gatherings documented as causing COVID-19 spread among those in attendance and/or super spreader events. A wedding in Maine. A bar in Michigan. Bars and/ churches in South Korea, Thailand, Singapore, the U.S., all resulted in spreading the virus by those in attendance in doors and in some instances causing super spreading events.

Hence, my comment the evidence unequivocally shows the heightened risk of indoor gatherings, like this church, isn’t a “rush.”

And I’d remiss if I failed to mention you haven’t engaged the evidence. Rather, you just cast tangential aspersions upon it, claiming it’s a “rush,” which defies common sense. Nine months of epidemiological and scientific evidence from the international community in regards to this virus is hardly a “rush” to say there’s a considerable amount showing indoor gatherings of this kind have an elevated risk.

Maybe you alleging a “rush” is the “politicking.” What next? Notions about gravity are “rushed” and “politicking”?

Here are the requirements:

Tone said:

Here are the requirements:

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Which are quite ridiculous I must say.

Tone said:

I think the thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that these people that are meeting are doing it voluntarily and they are aware of the risks involved and have simply put it in Abba's Capable Hands, as believers.

It's not like they are going into places where there are others who are fearful and who wouldn't voluntarily meet anywhere for any reason, or would they?

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Yes I think that if Christians aNd to go to church we.should be given the opportunity . We can use masks and hand wash etc to minimise risk . But no one should be made to feel bad if they don't want to take the risk of attending. But I like the idea of being given a choice

It is excellent that some churches are meeting outside

rockytopva said:

Defying Ceaser is packing out this church!

Grace Community Church Defies Court With Packed Sunday Service

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No true good will come forth in society unless God brings it forth through His Church, primarily by means of prayer and preaching/teaching God's Word (Matthew 9:38; 1Timothy 2:1-2; Jeremiah 29:7; Psalm 119:130; 107).

Praying that Christians and their leaders will continue to appose government leaders at the federal, state, and local levels who are persisting in the extraordinary foolishness of continuing (1) unlawfully locking down Churches, (2) unlawfully determining that certain Church activities are non-essential to the health of the nation, (3) unlawfully destroying families' ability to provide for their own, (4) unlawful expansion of governmental control and power, and (5) to work towards bringing to ruin their own economies. These are among the greater evils when considering the states of affairs relevant to COVID-19 mitigation efforts and the true health of the nation.

Praying for a victory for Pastor John MacArthur and his Church. Praying for minimal or zero virus cases in his and other Churches.

Pray, Christians! Pray for individual legal cases currently being litigated on this matter! (The Bible teaches the necessity of both both general and specific praying). And believe for positive Change!

seeking.IAM said:

I fear Americans are going to pay a much bigger price than the rest of the world because of their unwillingness to follow medical guidance. Choose your reason:

• The government can't tell the church what to do.
• It's a Democratic hoax staging us for the new world order.
• It's my right to freedom of assembly. It's in the constitution.
• Bill Gates is behind it all to hide a microchip in the vaccine.
• It only kills old people, so what?

What about love your neighbor? Have we no obligation to help keep others well even if we don't care about ourselves?
If I was a member of this body, I'd be looking for a new church.

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COVID-19 is not something comparable to the Ebola virus. The content of your post is also misleading of course.

In considering the relevant states of affairs pertinent to COVID-19 mitigation efforts and those factors contributing to the true health of the nation, the relevant evils must be considered and compared. Laws and policies that bring about greater evils than they potentially mitigate or eliminate should be avoided or abandoned.

You have in mind one or more evils in your post that you would like to be prevented. Under the current circumstances and conditions, I understand that the greater evils (and by extension the evils resulting from such) to include the following:

(1) unlawfully continuing to lock down Churches, (2) unlawfully and wrongfully determining that certain Church activity is non-essential to the health of the nation, (3) unlawfully destroying families'/communities' ability to provide for their own by shutting down businesses, (4) unlawful expansion of governmental control and power, (5) effectively working towards the destruction of economies, and (6) presupposing the validity of scientific naturalism in effectively dealing with COVID-19. (i.e. determining that science--or rather scientists--are the only legitimate source or means for determining how to effectively deal with the virus).

Loving our neighbor should not involve embracing those mentioned greater evils that will, in the end, bring more damage and loss to our neighbors, including creating shortfalls in resources needed to support the elderly community resulting from current/ongoing unjustified mitigation policies now in place.

Tone said:

My Mom told me recently that they were meeting in the parking lot that they rented from the city for like 30 years, until, out of spite, the city said that they wouldn't rent to them anymore.

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This turned out to be a miscommunication. They didn't meet in the parking lot.

Sorry.

seeking.IAM said:

This is quite true, but we don't need politicians' rules in order to do the right thing. I think we can't blame our unwillingness to follow best medical advice on the government. Rather, it is our own self-centeredness and lack of common sense.

I don't physically distance, wash my hands, wear a mask, and avoid large gatherings because the government told me to. I do it to reduce chances of my getting sick or my getting others sick.

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Hi,

Effectively advocating for the greater evils (please see post 151) resulting from certain governmental mitigation efforts now in place leaves little room for you and others in your camp to presume to hold the moral high ground on this issue.

The judge ruling in the case of Grace Community Church presumes that the potential loss of life resulting from potentially new cases of COVID is the greatest consideration and/or evil as compared to the evils resulting form the expansion of government power and intrusion (and the additional loss of personal liberties and rights) and also presumes that a certain activity of the Church is not essential to the health of the nation.

I would remind that judge that early Americans understood that the loss of personal liberties was in fact the greater concern and evil in comparison to the loss of lives resulting from the preservation of such liberties and rights in the fight against government tyranny and overreach.

Throughout history, 'for the good of society' always been the mantra for justifying the expansion of government and tyranny.

Wonderful news!


Pastor John MacArthur regains the lead against the forces of evil

RushMAN said:

Wonderful news!

Pastor John MacArthur regains the lead against the forces of evil

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Will be praying for his victory.

Martin Luther figured out the proper Christian response during the pandemic of his time. Many Christians of our day could learn a little compassion and wisdom from his example.
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In a letter to Rev. Dr. John Hess, found in Luther’s Works, Volume 43 p. 132, as “Whether one may flee from a Deadly Plague,” Luther writes:


“I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine and take it. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance inflict and pollute others and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me however I shall not avoid place or person but will go freely as stated above. See this is such a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash no foolhardy and does not tempt God.”

Today in the 21st century, the faithful should go and do likewise.

Tigger45 said:

Martin Luther figured out the proper Christian response during the pandemic of his time. Many Christians of our day could learn a little compassion and wisdom from his example.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a letter to Rev. Dr. John Hess, found in Luther’s Works, Volume 43 p. 132, as “Whether one may flee from a Deadly Plague,” Luther writes:


“I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine and take it. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance inflict and pollute others and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me however I shall not avoid place or person but will go freely as stated above. See this is such a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash no foolhardy and does not tempt God.”

Today in the 21st century, the faithful should go and do likewise.

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Your comparison of course is inadequate for supporting the government action against the Church mentioned in the OP (not that you are suggesting such). Why? I believe mainly because COVID-19, in terms of mortality rates, is not comparable to the Black Plague. I believe the allowance of in-building gatherings of the Church, and the greater goods associated with such, outweigh potential evils.

AACJ said:

Your comparison of course is inadequate for supporting the government action against the Church mentioned in the OP (not that you are suggesting such). Why? I believe mainly because COVID-19, in terns of mortality rates, is in no way comparable to the Black Plague. Thus, the allowance of in-building gatherings of the Church, and the greater goods associated with such, outweigh potential evils.

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There wouldn’t need to be a ‘government action’ when people, especially Christians, are making the loving and wise decisions on their own.

Tigger45 said:

There wouldn’t need to be a ‘government action’ when people, especially Christians, are making the loving and wise decisions on their own.

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In-building gatherings? By all means, present your argument that, for society as a whole, the potential losses resulting from potentially contracting COVID-19 in Church gatherings outweigh the relevant evils I list in post 151 (not to mention the other evils unique to the absence of such Church gatherings).

AACJ said:

In-building gatherings? By all means, present your argument that, for society as a whole, the potential losses resulting from potentially contracting COVID-19 in Church gatherings outweigh the relevant evils I list in post 151 (not to mention the other evils unique to the absence of such Church gatherings).

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That’s easily solved when meeting indoors. Which by the way is mostly unnecessary this time of year. But for indoor meetings one of my local churches has created multiple services asking those who’d like to attend to preregister to accommodate social distancing. By not following proper guidelines for a pandemic you’re either exposing at risk members and visitors directly or indirectly by cross contamination. This whole subject is ridiculous, unloving, a threat to the general public and a poor example of Christian behavior and wisdom.