Is commiting your life to Jesus works?

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

d taylor said:
Is reading, listening or hearing a work

Paul, in some of his best debate rhetoric, explicitly defined what he means by "work."

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is obligated. -- Romans 4

Acts which are done with the expectation of subsequent payment are "works."

To put it another way, acts done with the intention of obligating God to save them are "works." Paul tells us that we cannot obligate God to anything--regardless what we do, the only thing God "owes" us...is death.

People who perform actions with the expectation that God is obligated to pay them with salvation are people believing in a "salvation of works."

People who work after salvation are performing works because they are obligated by faith.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t believe the temptation of those sins is fully removed but I believe that we are given the power to overcome that temptation. We are no longer slaves to it.

Yet, Galatians 5:24 says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Romans 6:7 says, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

Romans 13:14 says, “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”

1 Peter 4:1-2 says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

2 Corinthians 7:1 says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Charlie24 · Sep 23, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
If obedience was God’s doing then there would be no need to tell Christians to obey, which we see that Paul does this numerous times throughout all of his epistles which are all addressed to Christians. Ephesians 4 and 5 are just two examples.

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Obedience is not automatic, even for those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Jesus came in the flesh to condemn sin in the flesh, "that the righteousness of the Law might be FULFILLED in us."

Through faith in Christ's sacrifice we walk in the Spirit that He can fulfill the Law in us.

He brings us into subjection to the Law, by our faith in Christ. He gives us the ability to obey. It's all provided by Him through our faith.

Hazelelponi · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said:
People who work after salvation are performing works because they are obligated by faith.

I would slightly disagree here, as I believe it is love which obligates us. Love for what He has done for us... Love therefore, of Him.

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The many verses in post #117 and the parable of the prodigal son say otherwise.

I think you must hold an extremely narrow definition of "sin."

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
I would slightly disagree here, as I believe it is love which obligates us. Love for what He has done for us... Love therefore, of Him.

I don't believe there is any separation between love, faith, and obedience with regard to our attitude toward Jesus. We cannot claim any one of them without performing all of them.

Hazelelponi · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said:
I don't believe there is any separation between love, faith, and obedience with regard to our attitude toward Jesus. We cannot claim any one of them without performing all of them.

Good point..

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said:
Paul, in some of his best debate rhetoric, explicitly defined what he means by "work."

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is obligated. -- Romans 4

Acts which are done with the expectation of subsequent payment are "works."

To put it another way, acts done with the intention of obligating God to save them are "works." Paul tells us that we cannot obligate God to anything--regardless what we do, the only thing God "owes" us...is death.

People who perform actions with the expectation that God is obligated to pay them with salvation are people believing in a "salvation of works."

People who work after salvation are performing works because they are obligated by faith.

Paul is referring to Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace because he was fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism at the time.

Here are a list of verses showing Paul fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Circumcision Salvationism is the belief that one had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. So if a person believed this way, they would be making the Law the basis for their salvation and not God's grace through faith in Christ. This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council more clearly.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

So as we can see, Paul was condemning works alone and not Sanctification or works as a part of the salvation process after a person was saved by God's grace. We know this because if I receive a car as a free gift, then that does not mean I have to take out a loan and work so as to pay for the car. But that does not release me from my obligation in taking care of that car or obeying the traffic laws, etc. A person who drives drunk, and who runs red lights will not have their car for very long. Sure, the car was still a free gift, but gifts can be forfeited through negligence. In Romans 4: Paul is talking about trading dollars for hours as a view of salvation. Yet, we do have God's grace if we happen to stumble. But this grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). This grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteous in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Paul warns that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21. Paul lists various sins as an example so one cannot say that one is simply not having a belief alone in Jesus while they think they can sin and still be saved. Paul is writing to believers in Galatians 5:19-21 because he was just talking to them in Galatians 5:16.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Observing Law is not being obedient to God!

We can only be obedient by completely surrendering to Him in faith and allow the Holy Spirit to bring about that obedience.

I believe that we cannot be saved by trying to follow the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. I believe we cannot be saved by Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace.

I believe that we must walk after the Spirit. Why? So as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh. It's what Galatians 5:16 says. The work of the flesh is sin according to Galatians 5:19. Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21 again). You are essentially saying that we can do such sins and inherit the kingdom of God (Which runs contrary to what Paul said in Galatians 5:19-21).

You said:
We are walking in the flesh without the Holy Spirit, hence the statement, "walk in the Spirit that you may not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Obedience to the Law is His doing in us, not our doing.

Again. Paul says the works of the flesh are adultery, fornication, etc. in Galatians 5:19. It's sin that is the work of the flesh and it has nothing to do with your version of trying to obey God's laws as a part of eternal life as being wrong.

What you are confused about is every time you see the word "law.” But Paul was condemning in going back to the Old Law like circumcision because one is trying to be justified by the Law alone if they did that (See: Galatians 5:1-6). However, you lump all of God's laws into one umbrella when Paul speaks of the Law in a negative light. But Paul is condemning in going back to the Old Law as a whole or package deal. Paul is condemning Law alone salvationism. Paul is not condemning the words of Jesus in Luke 10:25-28. If Paul did that, he would be contradicting himself when he said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said:
I think you must hold an extremely narrow definition of "sin."

One can only be condemned by the sins that the Bible mentions as the actual kind of sins that are attached with warnings of hellfire and or spiritual condemnation in the afterlife. If not, then one is adding to God's Holy Word.

John 12:48 says that if we do not receive the words of Jesus, those very words will judge us on the last day. Meaning, many today are not receiving the words of Jesus like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etc.; Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

When I talk with Christians today, most of them deny that the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, etc. apply today. They are not receiving the words of Jesus. Yet, John 12:48 says if they do not receive his words, those words will judge them on the last day.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

@RDKirk

Many today do not understand that one can be in the KINGDOM but yet cast out later at the judgment on account of their own sin.

In Matthew 7:26, Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they are working iniquity.

In Matthew 13:41-42, we learn that Jesus (the Son of Man) will send forth his angels and they will gather out all things that offend (i.e. anything that makes others to sin like a wrong belief, etc.), and anyone who commits iniquity (i.e. sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In other words, Christians who were once saved and later justify sin will be cast out of the kingdom by Christ's own angels.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

Many will be in surprise come judgment day.
Yeah, sure, they received Jesus, but they did not receive his words.

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
(John 12:48).

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

If one were to look at the context, the prophet mentioned in Acts of the Apostles 3:23 is JESUS.

Charlie24 · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe that we must walk after the Spirit. Why? So as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh. It's what Galatians 5:16 says. The work of the flesh is sin according to Galatians 5:19. Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21 again). You are essentially saying that we can do such sins and inherit the kingdom of God (Which runs contrary to what Paul said in Galatians 5:19-21).

The reason they will not inherit the kingdom of God is because they are not saved, they are walking in the flesh without God.

This is what Paul is saying in vs 18, leading up to the verses you quoted.

18) But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under Law.

One cannot follow the Spirit and the Law at the same time! The Law is of works, which is walking after the flesh without God.

Then Paul goes on to tell us what walking after the flesh will bring forth, it brings forth "works of the flesh." Then Paul illustrates what these "works of the flesh" are.

BNR32FAN · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yet, Galatians 5:24 says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Romans 6:7 says, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

Romans 13:14 says, “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”

1 Peter 4:1-2 says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

2 Corinthians 7:1 says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

So are you saying that Christians are completely free of temptation? Keep in mind every one the the epistles you quoted is addressed to believers and every one of those epistles warns these believers of the dangers and consequences of falling into sin.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

Charlie24 said:
The reason they will not inherit the kingdom of God is because they are not saved, they are walking in the flesh without God.

This is what Paul is saying in vs 18, leading up to the verses you quoted.

18) But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under Law.

One cannot follow the Spirit and the Law at the same time! The Law is of works, which is walking after the flesh without God.

Then Paul goes on to tell us what walking after the flesh will bring forth, it brings forth "works of the flesh." Then Paul illustrates what these "works of the flesh" are.

Yes, it is true that if one is led by the Spirit they are not under the Law.
But you fail to understand that the Law in reference here is in reference to the Law of Moses.
How so?

Galatians 5:2 says, “I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Circumcision is a part of the Old Testament Law of Moses and it is not a command that Christ and His followers gave us under the New Covenant or New Contract.

The latter half of Galatians 5:6 onward is talking about a new way of obedience, and punishment if one does not obey.

The “works of the flesh” is adultery, fornication, etc.

Proof?

Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ”

You say that a believer can sin and still be saved (i.e. saved = they can inherit the kingdom of God).

Yet, Paul says,

“....they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21).

I agree with Paul and not you.

BNR32FAN · Sep 23, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Jesus came in the flesh to condemn sin in the flesh, "that the righteousness of the Law might be FULFILLED in us."

Through faith in Christ's sacrifice we walk in the Spirit that He can fulfill the Law in us.

He brings us into subjection to the Law, by our faith in Christ. He gives us the ability to obey. It's all provided by Him through our faith.

Amen we are given the ability to walk in the Spirit not guaranteed to.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
So are you saying that Christians are completely free of temptation? Keep in mind every one the the epistles you quoted is addressed to believers and every one of those epistles warns these believers of the dangers and consequences of falling into sin.

I am saying that a Christian can reach a place where this can happen. Why? Well, it's what the Bible says if we believe our Bible in what it says over our own experience. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Faith is not what we see but it is in the Word despite our experience, emotions, sight, etc.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 23, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
So are you saying that Christians are completely free of temptation? Keep in mind every one the the epistles you quoted is addressed to believers and every one of those epistles warns these believers of the dangers and consequences of falling into sin.

If a person has crucified the affections and lusts according to Galatians 5:24, this means that they are dead and freed from sin as mentioned in Romans 6:7. It means what it plainly says. I know. I know. Your experience says otherwise. But we do not walk by sight but by faith in God's Word. Unfortunately, most do not believe all of the Bible, but they prefer to believe their own experience instead.

RDKirk · Sep 23, 2020

RDKirk said: ↑
I think you must hold an extremely narrow definition of "sin."

Bible Highlighter said:
One can only be condemned by the sins that the Bible mentions as the actual kind of sins that are attached with warnings of hellfire and or spiritual condemnation in the afterlife.

Yeah, that's what I figured.

Charlie24 · Sep 23, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, it is true that if one is led by the Spirit they are not under the Law.
But you fail to understand that the Law in reference here is in reference to the Law of Moses.
How so?

Galatians 5:2 says, “I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Circumcision is a part of the Old Testament Law of Moses and it is not a command that Christ and His followers gave us under the New Covenant or New Contract.

The “works of the flesh” is adultery, fornication, etc.

Proof?

Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ”

You say that a believer can sin and still be saved (i.e. saved = they can inherit the kingdom of God).

Yet, Paul says,

“....they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:21).

I agree with Paul and not you.

The commandments of Christ are the reinforcement of the Law!

Paul is not only referring to the Law of Moses, he is referring to the commandments of Christ, and any other man made law that you can invent.

Law, whatever it may be is of works, period! It is walking in the flesh!

Is commiting your life to Jesus works?

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

:sighing:

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

:sighing:

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Newbie

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