Do lies make us deserving of death and hell? And why or why not?

Halbhh

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No I don't think anyone deserves to go to a place like hell is supposed to be. I think you are right that it depends on the reason for the lie. I think it's perfectly moral to lie in order to protect values but it's immoral to obtain a value by value by lying. If I have a hidden compartment in my shoe that I keep emergency cash in and I get held up by a robber, I give him what's in my wallet, I need not tell him about the money in my shoe when he asks if I have any more money hidden. That's a case where it would be moral to lie. The robber forfeited any rights he has as soon as he threatened me with a gun and I'd be watching for an opportunity to turn the tables on him and kill him if I get the chance. It would be immoral for me to roll back the odometer on a car I was trying to sell. In that case, the buyer would be dealing with me by trade, not force and it would be fraud to not tell him the actual mileage on the car.
Good writing, and not even having any error I can see. You even correctly pick the word "supposed" in reference to 'hell'.

That's exactly the right word --

sup·posed -- generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so.
(definition from Oxford Languages via google)

There are quite a variety of imagined versions of what 'hell' is supposed to be.

Most people have a vague (and incomplete) idea ... or even many a little more, and even some actual scripture (instead of just none at all) so that they know that that 'hell' is a lake of fire (as scripture says it is, but that's not all that scripture says), and that the (already immortal) devil and his (already immortal) angels will suffer there for eternity (as scripture indeed does say)....and then jump to the wrong conclusion.

But a very complete and full reading in the collection of scriptures called the bible shows that many of these popular notions about what hell is by scripture do not fit all the various verses, such as for instance these:

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Does "destroy" seem a metaphor here? Does "kill" mean...to continue living?

Would Christ mess up His wording choice?

If it is to be a metaphor, why such a poor choice? "Sheep" is much more like a clear metaphor. The Bible is generally written with metaphors quite clear to a truly listening reader.

Was the wording "second death" an unfortunate poorly chosen wording when something more figurative was meant? Does "perish" mean...eternal life for those not yet in immortal bodies like the angels?

Or rather, as the verse actually says, do only some get eternal life, and the others that do not get eternal life then "perish"? (you can tell that I believe the verse says exactly what it means, and clearly)

What do the words actually say, if you truly listen?

They say that those who reject the God of Justice, Mercy, and Love will perish, in the second death, where body and soul will be destroyed. That is an eternal punishment.

It's also the same final outcome that most atheists already think is what happens after this temporary body dies.
 
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Halbhh

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Just because you had success implementing ideas from the bible does not give good evidence that they are from a god. It is evidence that they worked in your life. Muslims claim life change and useful ideas from their beliefs as well.
I think (a hypothesis/theory/guess of mine) that people are able at some point to appreciate or get or realize (such as in a moment of epiphany) that "Love one another" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are...good.

Just good. Just...best. A person, I hypothesize, will have a moment, some moment, in life when they just know or feel this.

Not all the time -- I don't hypothesize that people will always know this all the time. Someone might realize or know it only minutes during their entire life (maybe!)....

Just my best guess on that possibility.

I think most everyone or everyone will at some moment though, a day, an hour....

minutes or more...realize/know/or feel that these propositions/ways to live are just simply truly good.

Now, a particular individual person will react in a unique way.

An individual person might have a moment of insight where they realize these are truly good, and then mentally flee from that, leave it, and rush off to different thoughts that are less challenging. Say, if they feel guilty, but don't realize they can be utterly forgiven, because for instance perhaps they were not really forgiven in childhood much, for example (just 1 of a million possible conditions).
 
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com7fy8

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But what if a guy is lying to women in order to use them? He wants them to stay foolish enough to be fooled by him, which means they can be able to fool themselves into trusting evil men. This is not loving those women, if a guy wants them to keep on being able to be fooled and so hurt.

Does this deserve eternal punishment in hell?
no

but > > >
 
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com7fy8

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No I don't think anyone deserves to go to a place like hell is supposed to be.
I would say not all are trying to get you to suppose the same thing.

But, in any case, I now do not believe any human, and not even Satan, deserves hell. But I do believe it exists, as a place prepared for Satan, and humans can end there > because Jesus speaks of "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and how there will be humans going there, too > Matthew 25:41. And my personal learning now has to do with Hebrews 12:29 which says >

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

A thing is, though, how fire can have different effects, depending on the character of what is in the fire.

Rubber will burn with a very nasty smell.

Chicken can become nicer once it is no longer raw . . . finger-licking good and with a nice smell :)

So, I consider how hell can't bother anyone unless their selfish nature makes them able to suffer the torment. So, if this is somewhat correct, hell is more of a consequence, than a punishment. And we see how evil people can be quite tormented about Jesus . . . even now. After they die, they could be much more tormented by His presence, if they were to stay with Him. So, hell could be a way of keeping them from suffering so much, though there is torment there, too > because their selfish nature will still be in them, there, with reaped "corruption" > Galatians 6:7-8 > so they can suffer even more deep trouble.

And may be you know about Romans 1:18-32. It says those people received "in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

So, from this I see how God is not about making us suffer, but our own sin stuff within us has our automatic punishment of how it degrades us and keeps us weak so we can keep on deeply suffering. And God's word says this penalty is "due" . . . which I take to mean "deserved". We do deserve the trouble we get for ourselves, within ourselves, then, because of our selfish stuff, I would say this could mean.

But, when I sense that nasty reacting stuff starting in me, this can help me to see I am getting away from God and His peace; so I can stop, right away, and trust God to correct me and tune me so I am sweetly sharing with Him in His peace, then see what He has me doing in His peace. And this peace is almighty to guard us from any and all mental and emotional chaos (Philippians 4:6-7) > this is better than we can deserve, by the way :) But God wants us to have His own best.
 
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com7fy8

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I think (a hypothesis/theory/guess of mine) that people are able at some point to appreciate or get or realize (such as in a moment of epiphany) that "Love one another" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are...good.

Just good. Just...best. A person, I hypothesize, will have a moment, some moment, in life when they just know or feel this.
People can treat others the way they want to be treated . . . so others do not interfere with how they want to live selfishly. We see how people can say they do not want moral rules which can interfere with how they want to live; yet, they do want morals and laws which keep others from interfering with how they want to live selfishly :)
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I added the bolding and italicization.

Now you seem to me to be advocating that I must prove to you that God exists before I am allowed to believe what I believe.
I never said this. You can believe whatever you want.

To me that is proselytizing me to accept your POV over my own. You ask about my perspective but then reject my perspective because it is not your own. I am not asking you to believe what I believe I am only trying to answer your question about why I believe what I believe. Are you interested in my perspective or only interested in hearing your own perspective reinforced?
Ok, I know what you believe about morals and why. Thanks for the input.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I think (a hypothesis/theory/guess of mine) that people are able at some point to appreciate or get or realize (such as in a moment of epiphany) that "Love one another" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are...good.

Just good. Just...best. A person, I hypothesize, will have a moment, some moment, in life when they just know or feel this.

Not all the time -- I don't hypothesize that people will always know this all the time. Someone might realize or know it only minutes during their entire life (maybe!)....

Just my best guess on that possibility.

I think most everyone or everyone will at some moment though, a day, an hour....

minutes or more...realize/know/or feel that these propositions/ways to live are just simply truly good.

Now, a particular individual person will react in a unique way.

An individual person might have a moment of insight where they realize these are truly good, and then mentally flee from that, leave it, and rush off to different thoughts that are less challenging. Say, if they feel guilty, but don't realize they can be utterly forgiven, because for instance perhaps they were not really forgiven in childhood much, for example (just 1 of a million possible conditions).
I would say most people would agree that these two statements/ideas are good. I don't think an epiphany is required.
 
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grasping the after wind

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grasping the after wind

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Why do the guilty believe it is a sin for you to accuse them of something they did even when God knows it?

Before I answer that I want to say that I don't think the person I was speaking with believes it is a sin for me or anyone else to accuse people of something they did. I don't know whether of not a truly guilty person actually believes it is a sin to accuse them of something but I would suggest that someone that is guilty of something does not want to have it pointed out to them. Since Jesus used the phrase "let those without sin throw the first stone" it actually may well be a sin for me to accuse someone if I am not willing to have others accuse me of something I did.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I would say not all are trying to get you to suppose the same thing.

But, in any case, I now do not believe any human, and not even Satan, deserves hell. But I do believe it exists, as a place prepared for Satan, and humans can end there > because Jesus speaks of "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and how there will be humans going there, too > Matthew 25:41. And my personal learning now has to do with Hebrews 12:29 which says >

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

A thing is, though, how fire can have different effects, depending on the character of what is in the fire.

Rubber will burn with a very nasty smell.

Chicken can become nicer once it is no longer raw . . . finger-licking good and with a nice smell :)

So, I consider how hell can't bother anyone unless their selfish nature makes them able to suffer the torment. So, if this is somewhat correct, hell is more of a consequence, than a punishment. And we see how evil people can be quite tormented about Jesus . . . even now. After they die, they could be much more tormented by His presence, if they were to stay with Him. So, hell could be a way of keeping them from suffering so much, though there is torment there, too > because their selfish nature will still be in them, there, with reaped "corruption" > Galatians 6:7-8 > so they can suffer even more deep trouble.

And may be you know about Romans 1:18-32. It says those people received "in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

So, from this I see how God is not about making us suffer, but our own sin stuff within us has our automatic punishment of how it degrades us and keeps us weak so we can keep on deeply suffering. And God's word says this penalty is "due" . . . which I take to mean "deserved". We do deserve the trouble we get for ourselves, within ourselves, then, because of our selfish stuff, I would say this could mean.

But, when I sense that nasty reacting stuff starting in me, this can help me to see I am getting away from God and His peace; so I can stop, right away, and trust God to correct me and tune me so I am sweetly sharing with Him in His peace, then see what He has me doing in His peace. And this peace is almighty to guard us from any and all mental and emotional chaos (Philippians 4:6-7) > this is better than we can deserve, by the way :) But God wants us to have His own best.
I don't think it exists. I think it's the ultimate boogey man, used to scare people into behaving a certain desired way. I think punishment for lying comes in this life. Try going around lying to your friends and family for a week and see what effect it has on your life and happiness. lying is essentially faking reality. But reality is a non-contradictory whole. Fake one part and you will inexorable be drawn into faking other parts until you no longer can tell what is real and what is not.
 
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Halbhh

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I don't think it exists. I think it's the ultimate boogey man, used to scare people into behaving a certain desired way. I think punishment for lying comes in this life. Try going around lying to your friends and family for a week and see what effect it has on your life and happiness. lying is essentially faking reality. But reality is a non-contradictory whole. Fake one part and you will inexorable be drawn into faking other parts until you no longer can tell what is real and what is not.

"I think punishment for lying comes in this life. " -- Yes, but of course that proposition A is correct doesn't automatically make proposition B false. There are certainly immediate natural consequences to doing harmful things. That doesn't tell us anything about God, by itself.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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"I think punishment for lying comes in this life. " -- Yes, but of course that proposition A is correct doesn't automatically make proposition B false. There are certainly immediate natural consequences to doing harmful things. That doesn't tell us anything about God, by itself.
Of course, you are right.
 
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com7fy8

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I don't think it exists. I think it's the ultimate boogey man, used to scare people into behaving a certain desired way.
Hell is used this way.

But Jesus, "when He suffered, did not threaten" (in 1 Peter 2:23); so from this I understand Jesus does not use hell as a threat. But Jesus knows; so Jesus suffered and died like He did, partly in order to make sure we don't go there.

God wants genuine love. You can't get someone to really love you, by threatening him or her with hell.

I think punishment for lying comes in this life.
It does come in this life.

And I would say people can fear losing the love of others; and so they lie in order to cover up the truth about themselves. But if others are really loving persons, the truth won't stop them from loving someone. And certain sorts of liars, then, can miss out on having real love. Do they deserve this, though; I don't think so; but it is a consequence.

I know some people who could be psychopaths and/or pathological liars, and they seem to be trying to get involved with me and others. But if I am seeing them correctly > I can see through them and know they are incapable, the way they are, of functioning in a real relationship; so I carefully stay clear of getting isolated with them, since they would be faking and trying to get me under their power to use me. But I'll be kind to them, and enjoy spending some time with them.

So, I can see how people can love the liars, and even know they can't trust them; but the liars are cutting themselves off . . . right while they are with the people who may even dearly care for them. And with ones who can see through them, they keep discovering how people will not cross a certain line of going along with their deceit.
 
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Junia

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I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.


I relate to this. I was a compulsive liar due to shame, people pleasing , wanting approval. I was in despair.over.this but one day I decided to confess the lies to Jesus and say am sorry.and ask Him for the grace to stop.
 
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Junia

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Hell is used this way.

But Jesus, "when He suffered, did not threaten" (in 1 Peter 2:23); so from this I understand Jesus does not use hell as a threat. But Jesus knows; so Jesus suffered and died like He did, partly in order to make sure we don't go there.

God wants genuine love. You can't get someone to really love you, by threatening him or her with hell.

It does come in this life.

And I would say people can fear losing the love of others; and so they lie in order to cover up the truth about themselves. But if others are really loving persons, the truth won't stop them from loving someone. And certain sorts of liars, then, can miss out on having real love. Do they deserve this, though; I don't think so; but it is a consequence.

I know some people who could be psychopaths and/or pathological liars, and they seem to be trying to get involved with me and others. But if I am seeing them correctly > I can see through them and know they are incapable, the way they are, of functioning in a real relationship; so I carefully stay clear of getting isolated with them, since they would be faking and trying to get me under their power to use me. But I'll be kind to them, and enjoy spending some time with them.

So, I can see how people can love the liars, and even know they can't trust them; but the liars are cutting themselves off . . . right while they are with the people who may even dearly care for them. And with ones who can see through them, they keep discovering how people will not cross a certain line of going along with their deceit.


If you repent of lying, (confess it and stop it)/you won't go to hell. True born again believers who are walking with Jesus have been redeemed from hell
 
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Junia

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I couldn't help but notice you've done what we've all done: responded before you noticed that the question you were asking was answered in the same post you responded to. I've done it, we've all done it. Ask me to write shorter if I'm too wordy though!



To which you asked:


But that post said:


Hope that is more clear now?


But there is a new question you raised that is significant:

This part is significant, and I did not already address it --


Look and see for yourself how that worked in this account:

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Luke 19 NIV

Does that help? It's the amends you were asking about. It's quite clear. This is an example to us, to not only repent, but also to work to undo wrongs we have done as possible.

Finally, you speculated about "God's plan" --


Actually, we read that God's plan was from even before the world to send a Savior to redeem us from our wrongs instead of punishing us from them, if we will merely take responsibility and admit we've done wrong, and turn to him seeking forgiveness.

If we turn and repent, then He will freely pardon -- there are so many various verses throughout the Bible saying this in a variety of ways, and ask if you want a few.


This comforts me thanks
 
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AAichael

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I am not asking if god keeping his word is immoral. I am asking if one deserves death for lying or not loving others.

It is immoral because the punishment does not fit the crime. Would it be moral to give someone the death penalty for stealing a car?

Do you believe I deserve death for lying or not living others?

Thanks all of you for starting this one. First, I really think we should all look at the nature of society being imposed upon all of us and determine where the breakdown in truthful and integritous behavior is rooted. Do you expect a crucifix to carry out the functions of a tree honestly? I expect that the crucifix will deviate the duties of the tree continuously and probably even condemn the whole forest. This is how it is for us in society, in nature (where God's will is evident to me), the things and beings do not waiver from how they feel like doing things and follow their fundamental feelings, senses and purposes, this is how God navigates everything except us humans and some of the unfortunate service / farming animals. I believe there are a lot of snares in society as well and if one were truly concerned for the society as a whole not to lie, then an environment that facilitates honest living should be the focus. We are not a society like this and for anyone to be honest, requires a major overhaul of the life and practices where people are truly professing their souls profession and are able to stay in communion with truth and each other.

Currently, it is immoral for any God to punish people for any reason when that very God has not created an environment that justifies the "right" behavior. Being selfless and doing the bidding of others at disregard to one's own feelings and motives, does not create an expectation that the person being lead by alternate motives generated from the society will somehow act and behave in the integrity and communion of their own good will and conscience. We are horribly pulled apart from social influences and from awkward social stations and professions, we try to be of good morality and I witness this of people constantly, the people are very emotional and life driven, requiring a much better exasperation of their souls purpose than what they constantly experience, where they are always deprived of a truly satiating state of experiential being and with this, a deceptive state is relatively continuous, we then just see people try to endure this deceptive state and they do a good job because it is hard and they have been made guilty for the guilt of others on top of it (can the head of a body be true and honest, when it's body is not true and not honest?). How conflicted are we constitutively because we should be, I think people along with their right to be considered innocent, should be proven the same, if we cared and put more effort into the well being of the people, their souls purpose and profession, if we spent more effort making sure everyone has the really necessary things (especially in the soul mate department and profession department), then we would have a place where we could expect people not to be dishonest but we don't. People have to follow and do so much for reasons other than any self-willed purpose and as such I can't honestly think they should be honest when they are dragged through life by external influences and motives, even purposely deceived themselves. People are expected to maintain their being not to their own conscious satisfaction but to the satisfaction of others and even worse, people are horribly abused and because of their truly good nature, they can be lead into deception, it doesn't help when people try to ensnare others into being put on the spot and caught in deceptions, it is why people lie, because of the unlawful use of people's governing institutions to put non-favorable outcomes like criminal convictions and deceptions above having crime free states of honest communion with what we can best come to determine is an honest life with and for God as we best understand such.
 
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com7fy8

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Hi, AAichael > welcome to Christian Forums :)
I believe there are a lot of snares in society as well and if one were truly concerned for the society as a whole not to lie, then an environment that facilitates honest living should be the focus. We are not a society like this and for anyone to be honest, requires a major overhaul of the life and practices where people are truly professing their souls profession and are able to stay in communion with truth and each other.
I would not let my moral standards depend on what an evil situation is trying to get me to think and do.

There is God, deeper than this evil world's stuff. And with Him we can share in truthful relating and enjoy loving, in spite of evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

Part of how to overcome evil, and to do what is honest, is we ourselves be good examples. And this can help others.

Currently, it is immoral for any God to punish people for any reason when that very God has not created an environment that justifies the "right" behavior.
Well, we are going to answer to God; He is not going to answer to us and how we might dictate He has to do things!

Yes, we may have circumstances which are contrary to good. But with God in us, we have the means to do things how He pleases. He can be our true environment, maybe we might say.
 
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Kylie

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I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

What lie could a person tell that would leave them deserving death?
 
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