LDS The Claim

He is the way

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Oh! I see! Thank you so much for helping me see that there is a difference between making a comparison versus just drawing an analogy between one thing and (another) for the purposes of explanation or clarification. (Btw, that IS the definition of compare, so...)

It makes sense now, what you were saying. So, it means nothing that we don't have physical copies nor photos of the original signatures on the testimonies of the witnesses, it means nothing that several of the witnesses later used odd language to describe their experience that muddies the waters on whether it was a genuine, physical experience or just a visionary/spiritual one, and it doesn't matter that all of those men, except Joseph's direct family members left his church and declared him a false prophet while founding their own churches or joining other churches. It doesn't prove he was wrong, it actually proves he was right. Just like Jesus.
I was comparing EVENTS that happened to Joseph Smith, Peter, and Jesus Christ. That being said it is important who these events happened to because of their position. I do believe that both Joseph Smith and Peter are prophets of God and that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God and Mary in the flesh sent by the Father to make atonement for the sins of man. I know that Joseph Smith was put to the test similar to the test given to Abraham. God has NOT declared Joseph Smith a false prophet. Isaiah foretold of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
 
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He is the way

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Hey, all I'm asking is when your great apostacy happened. There doesn't seem to be an answer. And yet without a great apostasy there is no basis for the LDS,
I believe that the apostacy happened over a period of time. The inquisition was definitely NOT from God or even inspired by Him. Neither were the methods of torture.
 
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Hrairoo

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I was comparing EVENTS that happened to Joseph Smith, Peter, and Jesus Christ. That being said it is important who these events happened to because of their position. I do believe that ...

Then we're done here.
 
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dzheremi

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Although I didn't see him on your list, this is the sort of thing that took the priesthood from the earth:

“Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with Church dogma must be burned without pity.”
– Pope Innocent III

From: The Horrors of the Church and Its Holy Inquisition

Okayyyy...so the 'great apostasy' that your religion is based on started in 12th century France? Because that's when and where the inquisition started.

Here's a selection of things in Christian history that are recorded to have happened prior to the start of the inquisition:

33 AD, Jerusalem: Pentecost ('The Baptism of the Church')
30s AD: St. Thaddeus (later the apostle of Armenia, together with St. Bartholomew) visits King Abgar V of Edessa, converting him and through him his kingdom (Osroene) to Christianity.
c. 50s AD, various places: The Pauline Epistles composed and disseminated
c.51 AD: The apostolic council at Jerusalem, recorded in the book of Acts
52 AD: St. Thomas arrives in India, where he is martyred in 72 AD
c. 53 AD: HH St. Evodius succeeds St. Peter as bishop of Antioch
c.40s-68 AD, Egypt: St. Mark arrives in Alexandria (c. 46-51 AD), baptizes Anianos c. 62 AD as bishop of that city, writes his gospel c. 65 AD, and is martyred
c. 70 AD: The Epistle of St. James
c. 73 AD: Stoic philosopher Mara Bar Serapion composes his one extant letter to his son which contains supposedly one of the earliest secular/non-Christian mentions of Jesus
c. 80s AD: I Clement, the epistle of St. Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD) to the Corinthians
c. 90s AD: The Apocalypse of St. John, a.k.a. Revelation
c. 90s AD (commonly 95 AD): The Didache, or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (the earliest known 'Church orders' text, concerned in large part with the qualifications for and selection of leaders)
c. 100: The death of St. John, the last of the apostles to die and the only one not to be martyred
Before 108 AD: St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John, writes his six epistles to the Christians of various cities, and his epistle to fellow disciple of St. John, Polycarp of Smyrna (c. 65-155)
c. 110: Polycarp writes his epistle to the Philippians
c. 110 (but perhaps as late as 160): The Shepherd of Hermas
c. 120s: Aristides' apology to Emperor Hadrian (ruled c. 117-138); perhaps the earliest Christian apology
c. 130s (possibly as late as 150s): Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
c. 144: Marcion, a rich ship builder by trade, gives the Church the impetus to define a distinctly Christian canon as a result of his own meddling with the received text for theological reasons (Marcion didn't believe that the God of the OT is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather an evil and capricious God, and hence he excised the OT completely; in addition, he provided his own NT books which he and his followers attributed to St. Paul, regarded in his movement as the only legitimate apostle). There is also a tradition that church collections began because of him, because he had given a substantial amount of money to the Church, so in the process of kicking him out of it, the leaders of the Church in Rome took up a collection from the people so as to give him all his money back. Sort of a "take your dirty money and get out" idea, I take it.
150s: The writings of St. Justin Martyr (d. 165)
150s: Martyrdom of St. Polycarp
150s: Earliest evidence of bilingual Greek/Coptic gospel fragments appear in Egypt, indicating the spread of the religion outside of the Hellenized elite in Alexandria
c. 165-175: The writings of Melito of Sardis
167: Emperor Marcus Aurelius references Christians in his Meditations.
170s: Early Gnostic Christian writings begin to appear in Egypt
170-175: Tatian's Diatesseron, perhaps the earliest example of a 'Gospel harmony'
175-185: Writings of St. Irenaeus of Lyons
c. 176-181: Athenagoras serves as dean at the School of Alexandria (the first catechetical school in the world), the first such figure we can reliably tie to that position, hence also establishing the School as in operation from at least the late 2nd century if not earlier (as extant lists have three figures predating him, beginning in 62 AD, though these are based on later sources).
c. 180: Theophilos of Caesarea in Palestine writes in the name of the Synod of Caesrea on the question of the date of the celebration of the Paschal feast, prefiguring later councils in Rome (193) and elsewhere dealing with this question, which was a major sticking point throughout the Church, as some (Syriac Christians at Antioch, for instance) calculated it according to the Jewish dating of their Passover (14th of Nissan). The first Ecumenical Council (Nicaea 325) gave the Bishop of Alexandria the responsibility of calculating the date and disseminating it throughout the Christian East.
c. 170s-180s: The writings of St. Theophilos of Antioch, the seventh patriarch of that city (r. c. 169-182), are composed, including his Apology to Autolycus, the earliest Christian text to use the word "Trinity" in reference to God
c. 182-202: The writings of St. Clement of Alexandria, which are important for (among other things) their many allusions to non-canonical gospels and the various gnostic sects which wrote and embraced them.
189-199: Pope Victor of Rome, one of the African popes (probably from what is today Libya), condemns adoptionism (the belief that Christ was born a regular man who later 'became' God) by excommunicating one of its chief champions, Theodotus of Byzantium. I couldn't find a source on this, but if I remember my RC days properly, it was also under Victor that the liturgy was first celebrated in Latin (a practice which would not be adopted in a uniform fashion until a few centuries later).
189-232: HH St. Demetrius is 12th Bishop/Pope of Alexandria. Among other things, HH St. Demetrius is known for having being married for 47 years prior to his elevation to the throne of St. Mark, testifying to the presence of married bishops in the Church from an early time (which would cease to be the case in Egypt a little bit later, under the heavy influence of monasticism beginning in the mid-3rd century). He is also known for having condemned Origen via a synod held in Alexandria in 232, several centuries before the rest of Christianity would do so at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553.
c. 200-230: Ammonius of Alexandria, the teacher of Origen (c. 184-253), writes the first gospel synopsis, which placed parallel passages of the other three gospels alongside those of St. Matthew's gospel. He also wrote some sort of "harmony between Jesus and Moses" (cf. the earlier 'Gospel harmonies' genre), representing an early attempt to show the harmony of the OT and NT, in refutation of various gnostic sects which denied this (cf. Marcion, above).
c. 200-250: The Didascalia, a.k.a. the Teaching of the Apostles, is composed for use by Christian converts in Syria, modelling itself on the earlier Didache.
c. 246-258: The writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage, a major figure in the Novatianist controversy in North Africa in his time. The Novatianists denied the readmission of those who had apostasized during the persecution of Decius (250), while the letters of St. Cyprian argued that they should be readmitted into the Church. St. Cyprian's view won out in Rome, Alexandria, etc., though not without considerable resistance.
250: St. Paul of Thebes establishes himself as the first Christian hermit, living alone in the desert of Egypt and serving as a role model for the later monastic movement.
265-282: The writings of St. Gregory Thaumaturgus, a former student of Origen during the teacher's time in Caesarea Palestina.
c. 270: St. Anthony of Egypt retreats to the desert as a hermit, and is the first such man to attract a large following of pilgrims, effectively kickstarting Christian monasticism in the process.
300: The monastery of St. Anthony is completed after two years of construction. This is the world's first Christian monastery, and is still inhabited today by approximately 120 monks.
301: King Tridates III of Armenia accepts Christianity following the preaching of St. Gregory the Illuminator (257-331), and thereby establishes Armenia as the first modern, recognizable state to embrace Christianity as its official religion.
c. 306: The Synod of Elvira (modern Grenada, Spain) is held. It issues various canons which are notable for including the earliest reference known to the practice of clerical celibacy in the West, and another that is rather unhelpfully ambiguous concerning the presence of images in worship (well established in the Christian Church by this point; see, e.g., the art in the catacombes of Rome, dating to the early 3rd century), which would therefore be used by both iconoclast (those against images) and iconodule (those who are for the use of images) in much later conflicts over this issue in the Greco-Roman churches in the 8th and 9th centuries.
325: The first council of Nicaea is held under the presidency of HH Pope Alexander of Alexandria. This is considered to be the first of the 'ecumenical' council (in this sense meaning not regional/local, as earlier councils had been, but to be applied to the whole 'ecumene' -- the whole inhabited world). This council issues a creed which declares Christ to be homoousios -- of one and the same essence (i.e., the same divinity) -- with the Father, in a direct rebuke of the Arians and semi-Arians, who taught that Christ was of a different, or similar but not the same essence (the so-called homoiousian position).
330: King 'Ezana of Axum (modern Ethiopia and Eritrea) accepts Christianity on the preaching of St. Frumentius (d. 383), a Syro-Phoenician Greek from Tyre (modern Lebanon) who went on to serve as the first bishop of the Axumite Church. This makes Ethiopia the second oldest Christian country in the world, after Armenia.
340s: HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the twentieth bishop/pope of Alexandria (r. 328-373), establishes Christianity in the Nubian territories by sending the first bishops to Philae. Distinctly Nubian Christian kingdoms in what is now Sudan would last until the Islamicization of Sudan (early 16th century). There remain a small number of Nubian Christians today, mostly absorbed into the Coptic Orthodox Church through intermarriage with Egyptian Christians over the centuries. The last great testament to the existence of distinctly Nubian Christianity was the cathedral at Faras, which was destroyed (along with many Nubian villages) with the building of the Aswan Dam in the 1960s. Many of its frescoes dating back to the 9th-10th century were preserved by a Polish team of art historians and archaeologists who worked to preserve what they could before the completion of the dam, so you can see some of them here.
367: In his 39th festal (Paschal) letter, HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic (who according to Coptic tradition wrote the Nicaean Creed) sets down what is now recognized to be the earliest Biblical canon of 27 NT books, which has been the standard ever since. (Later adopted, for instance, in the North African church aligned with the Latins via the Synod of Carthage in 397.)
381: The second ecumenical council is held in Constantinople. This council saw the finalization of the Creed, with the addition of clauses pertaining to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which had not been in question at the first council but subsequently was thanks to the teaching of one Macedonius, who was installed by the Arians in Constantinople in 342. Macedonius denied the co-equal divinity of the Holy Spirit, and hence he and his followers were given the name Pneumatomachi, meaning "spirit-fighters".
386: Nestorius of Constantinople, one-time bishop of that city (428-431), is born. This idiot taught that St. Mary is not the mother of God, but only the mother of Jesus' humanity, thereby preaching a radical disjunction between the divine and human in the person of Christ, which was adopted by a large faction of Christians in Mesopotamia who would later identify themselves as the "Church of the East" as orthodox theology. This view found immediate enemies in Alexandria, Antioch, and elsewhere, and with good reason: the use of the term Theotokos, literally meaning 'birth-giver to God', is of much more ancient provenance in Christianity, being present in the earliest known Christian hymn written in honor of her, Sub Tuum Praesidum (or, in the original Greek, Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν), which first appears in the manuscript records in a Coptic (Egyptian) Nativity liturgy from 250 AD. (This hymn is still sung to this day in the Coptic, Armenian, Greek, and Latin churches.)
424: Probably in an effort to get the Zoroastrian Persian authorities to stop arresting their bishops for accepting as guests priests from the Byzantine empire (the traditional enemy of the Persian empire), the Assyrian Christians based in Mesopotamia around the ancient see of Seleucia-Ctesiphon (roughly corresponding to modern Al Mada'in, Iraq) held the Synod of Dadisho' in which they declared themselves to be completely free from Byzantine interference in the running of their ecclesiastical affairs. This paired well with the earlier Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon held in 410, which organized all the dioceses of the Assyrians into a unified Church at the behest of Yazdgird I (399-421), in an effort to consolidate Persian rule over the religiously heterogenous peoples of Mesopotamia (which has had a Christian presence since the first century).
431: The third ecumenical council is held in Ephesus and affirms that, yes, St. Mary is Theotokos -- not just 'Christotokos' as the followers of Nestorius would have it -- and Nestorius and his followers are condemned as heretics. This group is the origin of the Church of the East (a.k.a. the Persian Church, as a result of the above-mentioned Persian councils), which at one time was the largest single church in the world in terms of geographical spread, extending from Cyprus in the West to China in the East before the twin assault of the Mongols and Islam crushed them basically everywhere (today they are ~170,000 and have suffered numerous schisms; their patriarch, currently one Mar Gewargis III, has resided for some time in Chicago, IL rather than the traditional areas of Assyrian settlement in Iraq, which are very unstable today).

etc., etc., etc.

I stopped at the third ecumenical council because this post is already a beast and anyway my Church only recognizes the first three ecumenical councils (325, 381, 431), so I don't feel like I can present later events in a fashion that would be agreeable in a mixed-confession environment.

You get my point though, right? There's an awful lot that happened in the early centuries of Christianity (and what is in this post is merely a fraction of it), so any 'great apostasy' that is supposedly substantiated by what the Roman Catholic Church in particular did in western Europe in the 12th century seems hopelessly parochial and really rather lame. What effect could this have had on the Churches of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Greece, Asia Minor, and India, all of which have roots dating back to the apostles themselves? None of these were part of the inquisition, since they lived elsewhere and never took their orders from the Pope of Rome or anyone in the Roman Church to begin with.

Is your God such a limited being that he only cares about what happened in western Europe, and then only from the 12th century onwards? Or could it be just maybe that our friend Hrairoo is correct, and the Mormon narrative is necessarily limited to the very limited view that your founder Joseph Smith had, and this really has nothing to do with God or with the actual reality of the Christian Church throughout the world for the last two millennia?
 
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He is the way

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Okayyyy...so the 'great apostasy' that your religion is based on started in 12th century France? Because that's when and where the inquisition started.

Here's a selection of things in Christian history that are recorded to have happened prior to the start of the inquisition:

33 AD, Jerusalem: Pentecost ('The Baptism of the Church')
30s AD: St. Thaddeus (later the apostle of Armenia, together with St. Bartholomew) visits King Abgar V of Edessa, converting him and through him his kingdom (Osroene) to Christianity.
c. 50s AD, various places: The Pauline Epistles composed and disseminated
c.51 AD: The apostolic council at Jerusalem, recorded in the book of Acts
52 AD: St. Thomas arrives in India, where he is martyred in 72 AD
c. 53 AD: HH St. Evodius succeeds St. Peter as bishop of Antioch
c.40s-68 AD, Egypt: St. Mark arrives in Alexandria (c. 46-51 AD), baptizes Anianos c. 62 AD as bishop of that city, writes his gospel c. 65 AD, and is martyred
c. 70 AD: The Epistle of St. James
c. 73 AD: Stoic philosopher Mara Bar Serapion composes his one extant letter to his son which contains supposedly one of the earliest secular/non-Christian mentions of Jesus
c. 80s AD: I Clement, the epistle of St. Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD) to the Corinthians
c. 90s AD: The Apocalypse of St. John, a.k.a. Revelation
c. 90s AD (commonly 95 AD): The Didache, or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (the earliest known 'Church orders' text, concerned in large part with the qualifications for and selection of leaders)
c. 100: The death of St. John, the last of the apostles to die and the only one not to be martyred
Before 108 AD: St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John, writes his six epistles to the Christians of various cities, and his epistle to fellow disciple of St. John, Polycarp of Smyrna (c. 65-155)
c. 110: Polycarp writes his epistle to the Philippians
c. 110 (but perhaps as late as 160): The Shepherd of Hermas
c. 120s: Aristides' apology to Emperor Hadrian (ruled c. 117-138); perhaps the earliest Christian apology
c. 130s (possibly as late as 150s): Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
c. 144: Marcion, a rich ship builder by trade, gives the Church the impetus to define a distinctly Christian canon as a result of his own meddling with the received text for theological reasons (Marcion didn't believe that the God of the OT is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather an evil and capricious God, and hence he excised the OT completely; in addition, he provided his own NT books which he and his followers attributed to St. Paul, regarded in his movement as the only legitimate apostle). There is also a tradition that church collections began because of him, because he had given a substantial amount of money to the Church, so in the process of kicking him out of it, the leaders of the Church in Rome took up a collection from the people so as to give him all his money back. Sort of a "take your dirty money and get out" idea, I take it.
150s: The writings of St. Justin Martyr (d. 165)
150s: Martyrdom of St. Polycarp
150s: Earliest evidence of bilingual Greek/Coptic gospel fragments appear in Egypt, indicating the spread of the religion outside of the Hellenized elite in Alexandria
c. 165-175: The writings of Melito of Sardis
167: Emperor Marcus Aurelius references Christians in his Meditations.
170s: Early Gnostic Christian writings begin to appear in Egypt
170-175: Tatian's Diatesseron, perhaps the earliest example of a 'Gospel harmony'
175-185: Writings of St. Irenaeus of Lyons
c. 176-181: Athenagoras serves as dean at the School of Alexandria (the first catechetical school in the world), the first such figure we can reliably tie to that position, hence also establishing the School as in operation from at least the late 2nd century if not earlier (as extant lists have three figures predating him, beginning in 62 AD, though these are based on later sources).
c. 180: Theophilos of Caesarea in Palestine writes in the name of the Synod of Caesrea on the question of the date of the celebration of the Paschal feast, prefiguring later councils in Rome (193) and elsewhere dealing with this question, which was a major sticking point throughout the Church, as some (Syriac Christians at Antioch, for instance) calculated it according to the Jewish dating of their Passover (14th of Nissan). The first Ecumenical Council (Nicaea 325) gave the Bishop of Alexandria the responsibility of calculating the date and disseminating it throughout the Christian East.
c. 170s-180s: The writings of St. Theophilos of Antioch, the seventh patriarch of that city (r. c. 169-182), are composed, including his Apology to Autolycus, the earliest Christian text to use the word "Trinity" in reference to God
c. 182-202: The writings of St. Clement of Alexandria, which are important for (among other things) their many allusions to non-canonical gospels and the various gnostic sects which wrote and embraced them.
189-199: Pope Victor of Rome, one of the African popes (probably from what is today Libya), condemns adoptionism (the belief that Christ was born a regular man who later 'became' God) by excommunicating one of its chief champions, Theodotus of Byzantium. I couldn't find a source on this, but if I remember my RC days properly, it was also under Victor that the liturgy was first celebrated in Latin (a practice which would not be adopted in a uniform fashion until a few centuries later).
189-232: HH St. Demetrius is 12th Bishop/Pope of Alexandria. Among other things, HH St. Demetrius is known for having being married for 47 years prior to his elevation to the throne of St. Mark, testifying to the presence of married bishops in the Church from an early time (which would cease to be the case in Egypt a little bit later, under the heavy influence of monasticism beginning in the mid-3rd century). He is also known for having condemned Origen via a synod held in Alexandria in 232, several centuries before the rest of Christianity would do so at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553.
c. 200-230: Ammonius of Alexandria, the teacher of Origen (c. 184-253), writes the first gospel synopsis, which placed parallel passages of the other three gospels alongside those of St. Matthew's gospel. He also wrote some sort of "harmony between Jesus and Moses" (cf. the earlier 'Gospel harmonies' genre), representing an early attempt to show the harmony of the OT and NT, in refutation of various gnostic sects which denied this (cf. Marcion, above).
c. 200-250: The Didascalia, a.k.a. the Teaching of the Apostles, is composed for use by Christian converts in Syria, modelling itself on the earlier Didache.
c. 246-258: The writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage, a major figure in the Novatianist controversy in North Africa in his time. The Novatianists denied the readmission of those who had apostasized during the persecution of Decius (250), while the letters of St. Cyprian argued that they should be readmitted into the Church. St. Cyprian's view won out in Rome, Alexandria, etc., though not without considerable resistance.
250: St. Paul of Thebes establishes himself as the first Christian hermit, living alone in the desert of Egypt and serving as a role model for the later monastic movement.
265-282: The writings of St. Gregory Thaumaturgus, a former student of Origen during the teacher's time in Caesarea Palestina.
c. 270: St. Anthony of Egypt retreats to the desert as a hermit, and is the first such man to attract a large following of pilgrims, effectively kickstarting Christian monasticism in the process.
300: The monastery of St. Anthony is completed after two years of construction. This is the world's first Christian monastery, and is still inhabited today by approximately 120 monks.
301: King Tridates III of Armenia accepts Christianity following the preaching of St. Gregory the Illuminator (257-331), and thereby establishes Armenia as the first modern, recognizable state to embrace Christianity as its official religion.
c. 306: The Synod of Elvira (modern Grenada, Spain) is held. It issues various canons which are notable for including the earliest reference known to the practice of clerical celibacy in the West, and another that is rather unhelpfully ambiguous concerning the presence of images in worship (well established in the Christian Church by this point; see, e.g., the art in the catacombes of Rome, dating to the early 3rd century), which would therefore be used by both iconoclast (those against images) and iconodule (those who are for the use of images) in much later conflicts over this issue in the Greco-Roman churches in the 8th and 9th centuries.
325: The first council of Nicaea is held under the presidency of HH Pope Alexander of Alexandria. This is considered to be the first of the 'ecumenical' council (in this sense meaning not regional/local, as earlier councils had been, but to be applied to the whole 'ecumene' -- the whole inhabited world). This council issues a creed which declares Christ to be homoousios -- of one and the same essence (i.e., the same divinity) -- with the Father, in a direct rebuke of the Arians and semi-Arians, who taught that Christ was of a different, or similar but not the same essence (the so-called homoiousian position).
330: King 'Ezana of Axum (modern Ethiopia and Eritrea) accepts Christianity on the preaching of St. Frumentius (d. 383), a Syro-Phoenician Greek from Tyre (modern Lebanon) who went on to serve as the first bishop of the Axumite Church. This makes Ethiopia the second oldest Christian country in the world, after Armenia.
340s: HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the twentieth bishop/pope of Alexandria (r. 328-373), establishes Christianity in the Nubian territories by sending the first bishops to Philae. Distinctly Nubian Christian kingdoms in what is now Sudan would last until the Islamicization of Sudan (early 16th century). There remain a small number of Nubian Christians today, mostly absorbed into the Coptic Orthodox Church through intermarriage with Egyptian Christians over the centuries. The last great testament to the existence of distinctly Nubian Christianity was the cathedral at Faras, which was destroyed (along with many Nubian villages) with the building of the Aswan Dam in the 1960s. Many of its frescoes dating back to the 9th-10th century were preserved by a Polish team of art historians and archaeologists who worked to preserve what they could before the completion of the dam, so you can see some of them here.
367: In his 39th festal (Paschal) letter, HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic (who according to Coptic tradition wrote the Nicaean Creed) sets down what is now recognized to be the earliest Biblical canon of 27 NT books, which has been the standard ever since. (Later adopted, for instance, in the North African church aligned with the Latins via the Synod of Carthage in 397.)
381: The second ecumenical council is held in Constantinople. This council saw the finalization of the Creed, with the addition of clauses pertaining to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which had not been in question at the first council but subsequently was thanks to the teaching of one Macedonius, who was installed by the Arians in Constantinople in 342. Macedonius denied the co-equal divinity of the Holy Spirit, and hence he and his followers were given the name Pneumatomachi, meaning "spirit-fighters".
386: Nestorius of Constantinople, one-time bishop of that city (428-431), is born. This idiot taught that St. Mary is not the mother of God, but only the mother of Jesus' humanity, thereby preaching a radical disjunction between the divine and human in the person of Christ, which was adopted by a large faction of Christians in Mesopotamia who would later identify themselves as the "Church of the East" as orthodox theology. This view found immediate enemies in Alexandria, Antioch, and elsewhere, and with good reason: the use of the term Theotokos, literally meaning 'birth-giver to God', is of much more ancient provenance in Christianity, being present in the earliest known Christian hymn written in honor of her, Sub Tuum Praesidum (or, in the original Greek, Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν), which first appears in the manuscript records in a Coptic (Egyptian) Nativity liturgy from 250 AD. (This hymn is still sung to this day in the Coptic, Armenian, Greek, and Latin churches.)
424: Probably in an effort to get the Zoroastrian Persian authorities to stop arresting their bishops for accepting as guests priests from the Byzantine empire (the traditional enemy of the Persian empire), the Assyrian Christians based in Mesopotamia around the ancient see of Seleucia-Ctesiphon (roughly corresponding to modern Al Mada'in, Iraq) held the Synod of Dadisho' in which they declared themselves to be completely free from Byzantine interference in the running of their ecclesiastical affairs. This paired well with the earlier Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon held in 410, which organized all the dioceses of the Assyrians into a unified Church at the behest of Yazdgird I (399-421), in an effort to consolidate Persian rule over the religiously heterogenous peoples of Mesopotamia (which has had a Christian presence since the first century).
431: The third ecumenical council is held in Ephesus and affirms that, yes, St. Mary is Theotokos -- not just 'Christotokos' as the followers of Nestorius would have it -- and Nestorius and his followers are condemned as heretics. This group is the origin of the Church of the East (a.k.a. the Persian Church, as a result of the above-mentioned Persian councils), which at one time was the largest single church in the world in terms of geographical spread, extending from Cyprus in the West to China in the East before the twin assault of the Mongols and Islam crushed them basically everywhere (today they are ~170,000 and have suffered numerous schisms; their patriarch, currently one Mar Gewargis III, has resided for some time in Chicago, IL rather than the traditional areas of Assyrian settlement in Iraq, which are very unstable today).

etc., etc., etc.

I stopped at the third ecumenical council because this post is already a beast and anyway my Church only recognizes the first three ecumenical councils (325, 381, 431), so I don't feel like I can present later events in a fashion that would be agreeable in a mixed-confession environment.

You get my point though, right? There's an awful lot that happened in the early centuries of Christianity (and what is in this post is merely a fraction of it), so any 'great apostasy' that is supposedly substantiated by what the Roman Catholic Church in particular did in western Europe in the 12th century seems hopelessly parochial and really rather lame. What effect could this have had on the Churches of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Greece, Asia Minor, and India, all of which have roots dating back to the apostles themselves? None of these were part of the inquisition, since they lived elsewhere and never took their orders from the Pope of Rome or anyone in the Roman Church to begin with.

Is your God such a limited being that he only cares about what happened in western Europe, and then only from the 12th century onwards? Or could it be just maybe that our friend Hrairoo is correct, and the Mormon narrative is necessarily limited to the very limited view that your founder Joseph Smith had, and this really has nothing to do with God or with the actual reality of the Christian Church throughout the world for the last two millennia?
We can see that it didn't take that long for the church start to become perverted. Prior to the coming of Christ the Jews had perverted the gospel. That is why Jesus had to set them straight. Then as early as 325 they started to pervert the gospel again with the Nicene Creed. It seems that the church was becoming a political and intellectual entity instead of a religious and Godly entity. They began to follow the precepts of man as had the Jews. What happened to the LOVE of God and neighbor or enemy? What happened to gratitude, charity, hope, virtue, morality, kindness, benevolence, etc. Is Christianity a ritual or a lifestyle?
 
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CaspianSails

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It is a false choice as no organization speaks as the authority on earth for God. God does not dwell in buildings made by man. The Church is not composed of any one religion or denomination that claims the name of Christ but is composed of the universal body of believers who dwell on the earth. No "Church" or organized religion can claim primacy here. The Church of Christ has one leader and that is Christ himself. He is the only head of the Church. This thread is based on a position that is a falsehood at the start.
 
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dzheremi

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We can see that it didn't take that long for the church start to become perverted.

Excuse me? Who is this 'we' you are referring to? This is Christian Forums, not Mormon Forums. You don't just get to state your bias as though it is fact, with supporting evidence of any kind.

Prior to the coming of Christ the Jews had perverted the gospel.

How?

That is why Jesus had to set them straight.

How does Jesus' coming stop the Jews from 'perverting' the gospel, in whatever way they did?

Then as early as 325 they started to pervert the gospel again with the Nicene Creed.

Again, how does the Nicene Creed 'pervert' the gospel in any way? Specifics, please. None of your "It's all about LOOOOVE" nonsense that everyone's tired of and doesn't actually answer the question. I want details that are specific to the Nicene Creed and how it supposedly 'perverts' the gospel.

It seems that the church was becoming a political and intellectual entity instead of a religious and Godly entity.

How's that?

They began to follow the precepts of man as had the Jews.

Again, how did they do this? If you think adopting a creed is in itself evidence of this, then you ought to be consistent and renounce any formal declaration that lays out what Mormonism believes.

Goodbye, Articles of Faith (which are part of the Pearl of Great Price, are they not? And doesn't that make them scripture?)! Goodbye, Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet!

Goodbye, anything that gives the Mormon religion anything solid to rest itself on!

What happened to the LOVE of God and neighbor or enemy?

Whatever happened to making an argument rather than an emotional appeal?

What happened to gratitude, charity, hope, virtue, morality, kindness, benevolence, etc.

Whatever happened to honesty; freely-given charity rather a once-a-year shakedown; hope in the Christ's victory over death upon the cross rather than in how many dead people you can get baptized for; morality that doesn't change when a church leader gets caught with teenage servants; kindness that isn't bound up in a goal to convert everyone to your religion (or if that fails, at least to the view that Mormonism is Christian too, because golly gee, those Mormons are just so nice, and they say they believe in God just like we do!)?

Oh, wait. Your religion never had any of that to begin with.

Well no wonder you have to keep your 'great apostasy' fantasy going to try to keep yourself convinced or to (try to) convince others. If the great apostasy really didn't happen (and it didn't), then there's no real advantage to being Mormon, and plenty of disadvantages.

Is Christianity a ritual or a lifestyle?

What about anything in the post you were supposedly replying to makes you think that this is some sort of important or sensible division to make? My post was a list of historical happenings, not about any aspect of ritual or rite.

And what the heck...in your super-secret temples, you've got an entire thing you've got to go through in a specific set of steps, with prescribed responses and actions, according to a set script. It even extends down to what you can wear during the process.

That sure sounds like a ritual to me!

And if it isn't, I'd like to hear how it isn't.

It'll sure be fun to see you try to explain how it totally isn't without being able to reference any of the specific details of your temple ritual!
 
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Hawkins

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The only Temple which is not corruptible is the One Jesus built in 3 days, which is Jesus Himself.

OT is a testimony of the Jews. Its canonization was strictly done by the Jews started with King Hezekiah, went through Ezra and finalized by the Great Sanhedrin back in Jesus days.

NT is a testimony of the Apostles. It's canonized by Christians after physical earthly authentication went from the Jews to Christians. Such a shift of authentication is declared by Jesus Himself when He made the "binding and loosing" statement.

Today authentication mostly goes to the Protestants, as only the Protestants have both a correct Jewish OT Canon and a Christian NT Canon. The New Covenant is final and there is no more room for the existence of Mormon.

Protestants represent a multiple denomination establishment of which Catholicism is just one of them. Multiple denomination is to facilitate today's world where humans tend more seeking knowledge (as prophesied by Daniel),

Daniel 12:4 (NIV2011)
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.

Multiple denomination however is not without governance. The governance is one salvation. As God foresaw, today's world is better with multiple denominations but one salvation message which is Jesus Christ. Such a one salvation in turn is governed by the faith statements mentioned in the Apostles' Creed. Multiple denomination is a legit establishment but not multiple salvation messages. Anything deviated from the Apostles' Creed is a heresy, including Mormon.
 
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He is the way

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It is a false choice as no organization speaks as the authority on earth for God. God does not dwell in buildings made by man. The Church is not composed of any one religion or denomination that claims the name of Christ but is composed of the universal body of believers who dwell on the earth. No "Church" or organized religion can claim primacy here. The Church of Christ has one leader and that is Christ himself. He is the only head of the Church. This thread is based on a position that is a falsehood at the start.
People follow who they want to follow, they either follow Jesus Christ of Satan. One of Christ's apostles was a devil. We are responsible for our own choices.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I believe that the apostacy happened over a period of time. The inquisition was definitely NOT from God or even inspired by Him. Neither were the methods of torture.
Apostasy literally means to go stand somewhere else. It's a break. But you don't seem to be able to pin this one down to even within a period of a thousand years. Some great apostasy.

As to the crusades, they were historically an uneven lot. Some were requested by the Orthodox, beset by Islamic aggression, and fit under the category of just war justly waged. In others there were war crimes of varying degrees. One ended up sacking Constantinople, and that was a nasty deviation. But to say because of the crusades Joseph Smith got to recreate Christianty is silliness. If you were right about the crusades then the recreation of Christianity should have started by 1400 ad. Not on the mid 1800's.

The LDS claim to being legitimate requires a historical great apostasy. But even then a wait of hundreds of years damages the claim. Jesus said he would not leave us orphans. So, pin down when your great apostasy happened and get back to me. Until then I will conclude that your difficulty is the difficulty of not being able to find something which does not exist.
 
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chevyontheriver

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People follow who they want to follow, they either follow Jesus Christ of Satan. One of Christ's apostles was a devil. We are responsible for our own choices.
Yes we are. When we break from historic Christianity and create some new thing alien to it, what is that. There have been Christians on the Ninevah highlands for almost 2000 years. Why is not Mormonism exactly like that kind of Christianity? Why is Mormon liturgy so different from every ancient Christian liturgical form, the Roman liturgy, the Byzantine liturgy, Coptic liturgy, Maronite liturgy, or any of the liturgical families of Christianity. Hint: Your great apostasy MUST predate ANY of these historical liturgies or it's just blowing smoke. And if your great apostasy did happen it would be helpful to your cause if you could find some record of a Mormon liturgy somewhere in the first centuries after Christ. Can you?
 
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Hrairoo

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That's the crux of it for me. Just being able to find one document that teaches some unique Mormon doctrine in the time of Christ. If it was edited out of the main books, how orchestrated was this Apostasy that every copy of those ordinances was destroyed? Traveling Christian missionaries has been a thing for a very long time. This conspiracy would need a lot of tentacles to reach everywhere. Either that, or this Apostasy hit the apostles themselves right after Christ's death and resurrection.

Or is this one of those things like how "translation" really means revelation? Restoration actually means "establishing the stuff Jesus meant to say." ?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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But why taken from man, when there is no record it was given to any diciple or apostle or ever mentioned except for Jesus being our High Priest. No temple meant there were no priests. Then there were only churches, in homes and no priests, just deacons bishops and so forth. You can't take away something that there is no record of bein given.
If they are translated beings, why are they left here on earth? Translation, by it's very name, means taken to heaven. Because they are going to heaven, that nessessitates a change in the body for man can not enter into heaven. If being left on earth, they need not change for they are here and can live on here as long as God wants them to.

Genesis 14:18
Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (Now he was the priest of the Most High God.)

Where is the Temple?

Exodus 19:6
and you will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.”

Exodus 19:22
Let the priests also, who approach the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break through against them.”

Again, no temple

Exodus 28:1
The Clothing of the Priests
“And you, bring near to you your brother Aaron and his sons with him from among the Israelites, so that they may minister as my priests—Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron’s sons.

Exodus 29:9
and wrap the sashes around Aaron and his sons and put headbands on them, and so the ministry of priesthood will belong to them by a perpetual ordinance. Thus you are to consecrate Aaron and his sons.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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But why taken from man, when there is no record it was given to any diciple or apostle or ever mentioned except for Jesus being our High Priest. No temple meant there were no priests. Then there were only churches, in homes and no priests, just deacons bishops and so forth. You can't take away something that there is no record of bein given.
If they are translated beings, why are they left here on earth? Translation, by it's very name, means taken to heaven. Because they are going to heaven, that nessessitates a change in the body for man can not enter into heaven. If being left on earth, they need not change for they are here and can live on here as long as God wants them to.

III Nephi 28

"
CHAPTER 28

Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which bJohn, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall anever taste of bdeath; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the cpowers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bbring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have afulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;

11 And the aHoly Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the athree who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were acaught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was aforbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them bpower that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a atransfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the aprisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his apower they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, aMormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, aI have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be aamong the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a agreat and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

33 And if ye had aall the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

34 And wo be unto him that will anot hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and bsent among them; for whoso creceiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an aoffended God, who hath been btrampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were acleansed from bmortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a achange wrought upon their bodies, that they might not bsuffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not atempt them; and they were bsanctified in the flesh, that they were choly, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens."
3 Nephi 28

Since the Apostle John and these three witnesses are always on the earth since the time of Jesus, there can be no falling away.

2 Thessalonians 2
New English Translation
The Day of the Lord
2 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,[c] 2 not to be easily[d] shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us,[e] to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes[f] and the man of lawlessness[g] is revealed, the son of destruction.[h] 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat[j] in God’s temple, displaying himself as God.[k] 5 Surely you recall[l] that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 6 And som] you know what holds him back,[n] so that he will be revealed in his own time. 7 For the hidden power of lawlessness[o] is already at work. However, the one who holds him back[p] will do so until he is taken out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord[q] will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival. 9 The arrival of the lawless one[r] will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders, 10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against[t] those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. 11 Consequently[v] God sends on them a deluding influence[w] so that they will believe what is false. 12 And so[x] all of them who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evil will be condemned.[y]

I have had LDS tell me that the one holding things back from happening is the Apostle John.
Right after, they claimed to see him themself.
 
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mmksparbud

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Genesis 14:18
Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (Now he was the priest of the Most High God.)

Where is the Temple?

Exodus 19:6
and you will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.”

Exodus 19:22
Let the priests also, who approach the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break through against them.”

Again, no temple

Exodus 28:1
The Clothing of the Priests
“And you, bring near to you your brother Aaron and his sons with him from among the Israelites, so that they may minister as my priests—Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron’s sons.

Exodus 29:9
and wrap the sashes around Aaron and his sons and put headbands on them, and so the ministry of priesthood will belong to them by a perpetual ordinance. Thus you are to consecrate Aaron and his sons.

Of course no temple before the sanctusary was built---each head of the family was the official priest of the famiy and was in charge of the sacrifices for the family. Cain, as the head oif his family did his, and Abel did his as did Adam. and so did Job. The alters were the "temple" --each famiy had one. The sanctuary was the "temple"---it was a portable temple until the permanent one was built. The earthly sanctuary was made according to the heavernly sanctuary pattern that God gave to Moses.
 
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mmksparbud

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III Nephi 28

"
CHAPTER 28

Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which bJohn, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall anever taste of bdeath; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the cpowers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bbring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have afulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;

11 And the aHoly Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the athree who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were acaught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was aforbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them bpower that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a atransfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the aprisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his apower they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, aMormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, aI have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be aamong the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a agreat and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

33 And if ye had aall the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

34 And wo be unto him that will anot hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and bsent among them; for whoso creceiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an aoffended God, who hath been btrampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were acleansed from bmortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a achange wrought upon their bodies, that they might not bsuffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not atempt them; and they were bsanctified in the flesh, that they were choly, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens."
3 Nephi 28

Since the Apostle John and these three witnesses are always on the earth since the time of Jesus, there can be no falling away.

2 Thessalonians 2
New English Translation
The Day of the Lord
2 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,[c] 2 not to be easily[d] shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us,[e] to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes[f] and the man of lawlessness[g] is revealed, the son of destruction.[h] 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat[j] in God’s temple, displaying himself as God.[k] 5 Surely you recall[l] that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 6 And som] you know what holds him back,[n] so that he will be revealed in his own time. 7 For the hidden power of lawlessness[o] is already at work. However, the one who holds him back[p] will do so until he is taken out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord[q] will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival. 9 The arrival of the lawless one[r] will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders, 10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against[t] those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. 11 Consequently[v] God sends on them a deluding influence[w] so that they will believe what is false. 12 And so[x] all of them who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evil will be condemned.[y]

I have had LDS tell me that the one holding things back from happening is the Apostle John.
Right after, they claimed to see him themself.


Are you Mormon now??
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"Once the apostles were gone, apostasy would continue unrestrained until the Savior’s second coming. "

In John's reply we see the measure of the man; the apostolic witness he desired to bear; the works he desired to do; the souls he desired to save: "Lord, give unto me power over death," he asked, "that I may live and bring souls unto thee." Such a request, aside from the perfect faith that knows that such a plea can be granted, is a manifestation of missionary zeal scarce known among men. To preach the gospel and save souls until the Son of Man comes in his glory-what a wondrous work! (The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979-1981], 4: 291)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:68 - 73)

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

Hi Friend, I am puzzled by verses 70-71 --- I forget what my questions was. It was related to the highlighted parts. How can someone without a priesthood ordain someone? Thank You for your kind answer.

"
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded."
 
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He is the way

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Hi Friend, I am puzzled by verses 70-71 --- I forget what my questions was. It was related to the highlighted parts. How can someone without a priesthood ordain someone? Thank You for your kind answer.

"
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded."
The priesthood of Aaronic was conferred on them by John, see verse 69, therefore they had the authority to confirm one another.
 
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chevyontheriver

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That's the crux of it for me. Just being able to find one document that teaches some unique Mormon doctrine in the time of Christ. If it was edited out of the main books, how orchestrated was this Apostasy that every copy of those ordinances was destroyed? Traveling Christian missionaries has been a thing for a very long time. This conspiracy would need a lot of tentacles to reach everywhere. Either that, or this Apostasy hit the apostles themselves right after Christ's death and resurrection.

Or is this one of those things like how "translation" really means revelation? Restoration actually means "establishing the stuff Jesus meant to say." ?
So I asked about the various liturgies in the Church, most of them ancient, and where the supposed original pre-apostasy LDS like liturgy was. And all I hear is crickets. All of the various families of liturgy in original Christianity are related and cohesive. But none of them are cohesive with LDS liturgy. Where is the historical document of a pre-apostasy LDS like liturgy from before Hippolytus wrote his 'Apostolic Traditions' in 235 AD? If LDS claims are true, there should be a Mormon liturgy from the first century. Where is it? Crickets.
 
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