Hello my Arminian Brothers and sisters! I have yet another question for you.

John Mullally

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We started this with the nature of God,specifically you claiming the creator loves all people. The believer and love thy neighbor is off topic.
You are mistaken. It would be unrighteous for God to command his children to love their neighbors, when He will not do the same (i.e. love our neighbors).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Arminian to far "left" and Calvinism to far "right"? Most Christians are somewhere in between, I believe.
I gather your view is, it doesn't matter? BTW, many who believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and the purity of the Gospel (that it is entirely the work of God) don't even know they are Calvinists, due to the caricatures that have been made of Calvinism. I am one that didn't know, for example.

The "framework" you refer to is only a reaction to the Arminian falsehood of a gospel that requires the work of Man before God can work.
 
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BobRyan

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If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them?

Because He has done everything - including die for them -- to make that possible.

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE could I have done that I have not already done?"
"God so loved the World.. yes really" John 3:16
 
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Mark Quayle

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God allows elements of His creation to influence creation in ways that are contrary to His desire, IOW ... sin.

This is the first moral lesson in the scriptures. The first man and woman were tasked with obeying the voice of God, ... and they failed. God allowed it, yea even placed the man/woman in a context where they would have to face the temptation to sin, ... yet their sin, in itself, was not in alignment with the will of God, though God ... ever the perfect manager, ... already had a plan to deal with their sin.

I trust your scriptural bonafides, so I will speak as to my conclusions from my decades-long study of the scriptures. It is only fair to mention that I have read through the entirety of the scriptures, and, am thus, have a familiarity with it.

In God's creation of humankind, Gods desire is to generate images of Himself. In my conclusion, this means sentient creatures who are capable of making moral decisions. Hence, the first real test for Adam and Eve in the garden ... of whether to obey ... or disobey God. And, of course, we know how they chose ... and the results of that choice.

In our own households, we tolerated episodes of disobedience from our children ... not because we were indifferent to the evil of the disobedience, ... but because we were dealing with immature creatures.

I would note that God styles Himself as our Father, so it is not unreasonable to assume that He would do the same. That He does is not an indictment upon His desire for a perfect good, but rather is evidence of His wisdom in allowing us to participate in a process of growth ... which will bring us to the pinnacle of His ultimate desire for us.

That some who are being "raised" in the same context will, ultimately fail to reach that pinnacle ... is, again, a consequence in common that of our experience as parents. All children do not turn to be good, productive citizens, whether or not they were raised to be. Which is why our prisons are full of murderers, thieves, and con artists. That, being aware of the uncertainty of our endeavor, choose to bring children in to the world anyway, ... does not indict us with the charge of desiring to perpetuate evil in the world, ... but, rather, demonstrates our understanding of the necessity to "take the good with the bad", as we say.

God does the same ... to achieve the maturation of benevolent human creatures, He allows the conditions in which those creations are enabled to choose the good, and not the evil, though some choose the evil.

Moral fortitude is a strength made stronger through exercise, which is, in itself, explanatory for why Adam and Eve fell so quickly in the garden. Having no experience with evil, those naively choose to perpetuate evil, ... through choices which they likely would have made differently ... had they had experience with the fall.


No, my friend, God does NOT do the same as we weakling silly humans in raising our children. We did not create them and we are clueless not only as to how they will turn out, but in our ways of raising them. But the real point is one that even an Atheist can see (and they happily point out) --that if God knew all this before he created, why did he go ahead and do it anyway? --if he KNEW it, then he CAUSED it ON PURPOSE by creating "in the first place".

Now we know that God does not tempt anyone, because the Scriptures say so explicitly. I wouldn't claim such an awful thing. But to say that God does not cause all things, then, is only your logic, not Scriptures. I say that so that you know where I stand. No, God is not the author of sin. Yet OUR sin, whatever causes are involved, and yes we are responsible for our own sin, yet our choices ARE inexorably caused, is chosen by US. Some Calvinists like to point out that God always uses second or later causes, and it is true, in causing some, most, things, and particularly in causing us to make our sinful decisions. They think this distances him from "responsibility" for sin. To me that is kind of laughable. God does not operate subject to our mode of life --our temporal framework.

You have read through the Bible and even studied it for decades. (I've read through it more times than I can remember, and studied it intensely since I was a child (I'm 64), and been indoctrinated by Arminians --big deal, it matters little). That does not mean you have the right understanding. There are things all of us, including Calvinists, btw, assume when they go study, often without even realizing that they do, and it colors their whole worldview. And only God can set them on a better way. The Reformed (aka Calvinists) like their name Reformed because it implies they are still learning, still studying, and praying for purity of mind, and an open mind to the truth. I don't know if any of them think they have it all figured out. But you sound like you think you do.

Consider whether you have finally gotten on the right track about obedience, that obedience and maturation and perfection that you desire --have you figured out why it hasn't happened yet? I found out that even that is secondary to God in favor of KNOWING HIM. I found out that God does whatever he pleases, and we have nothing to say about it. That knowledge, to me has become precious and sweetly logical concerning the sovereignty of God. He will keep his promises according to his timing (may I say, His Will?) and we don't even know what he is doing, no matter how much we have learned. Thank God he lets us watch.

"Apart from me you can do nothing."
 
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Mark Quayle

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Because He has done everything - including die for them -- to make that possible.

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE could I have done that I have not already done?"
"God so loved the World.. yes really" John 3:16
If God does even any one thing only because of his foresight, he is not omnipotent.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God allows elements of His creation to influence creation in ways that are contrary to His desire, IOW ... sin.

This is the first moral lesson in the scriptures. The first man and woman were tasked with obeying the voice of God, ... and they failed. God allowed it, yea even placed the man/woman in a context where they would have to face the temptation to sin, ... yet their sin, in itself, was not in alignment with the will of God, though God ... ever the perfect manager, ... already had a plan to deal with their sin.

I trust your scriptural bonafides, so I will speak as to my conclusions from my decades-long study of the scriptures. It is only fair to mention that I have read through the entirety of the scriptures, and, am thus, have a familiarity with it.

In God's creation of humankind, Gods desire is to generate images of Himself. In my conclusion, this means sentient creatures who are capable of making moral decisions. Hence, the first real test for Adam and Eve in the garden ... of whether to obey ... or disobey God. And, of course, we know how they chose ... and the results of that choice.

In our own households, we tolerated episodes of disobedience from our children ... not because we were indifferent to the evil of the disobedience, ... but because we were dealing with immature creatures.

I would note that God styles Himself as our Father, so it is not unreasonable to assume that He would do the same. That He does is not an indictment upon His desire for a perfect good, but rather is evidence of His wisdom in allowing us to participate in a process of growth ... which will bring us to the pinnacle of His ultimate desire for us.

That some who are being "raised" in the same context will, ultimately fail to reach that pinnacle ... is, again, a consequence in common that of our experience as parents. All children do not turn to be good, productive citizens, whether or not they were raised to be. Which is why our prisons are full of murderers, thieves, and con artists. That, being aware of the uncertainty of our endeavor, choose to bring children in to the world anyway, ... does not indict us with the charge of desiring to perpetuate evil in the world, ... but, rather, demonstrates our understanding of the necessity to "take the good with the bad", as we say.

God does the same ... to achieve the maturation of benevolent human creatures, He allows the conditions in which those creations are enabled to choose the good, and not the evil, though some choose the evil.

Moral fortitude is a strength made stronger through exercise, which is, in itself, explanatory for why Adam and Eve fell so quickly in the garden. Having no experience with evil, those naively choose to perpetuate evil, ... through choices which they likely would have made differently ... had they had experience with the fall.
I think I fell a bit short in dealing with your idea that God does as we parents do. NOTHING on earth is comparable to the real thing in heaven. What we see and are and do is only a poor picture of the real thing. We are like him (be it ever so little) --not him like us.
 
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Mark Quayle

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That is not logical.

All powerful is not "deleted" by being "all knowing"
I'm not saying he is not all knowing. But I will say that he foreknows, because he forecauses. God does not fly by the seat of his pants, correcting the trajectory of this existence from time to time.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are mistaken. It would be unrighteous for God to command his children to love their neighbors, when He will not do the same (i.e. love our neighbors).
God is not like us, nor is he subject to his command to us. This righteousness is in our dealings with our fellow creatures, and with our OWNER. God answers to no one, and he has no fellow neighbors. His righteousness and justice and purity is not affected by what we understand about it. We cannot judge him. So, read Romans 9.

(A humorous aside: I find it amazing that some who deny God the right to do as he pleases with his own creation, particularly in this. that what he commands us to do, that he must also do in every respect and detail, don't even whimper about Congress making a separate standard for themselves than for us.)
 
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Mark Quayle

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God does love all people.
Just curious, what do you do with the Scriptures that say he hates this and that person or kind of person? And on what Scriptures do you base the idea that he loves all people --and what sort of love do you mean by that?
 
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A_Thinker

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I think I fell a bit short in dealing with your idea that God does as we parents do. NOTHING on earth is comparable to the real thing in heaven. What we see and are and do is only a poor picture of the real thing. We are like him (be it ever so little) --not him like us.
God, Himself, expresses Himself to us ... in human terms of family (Father, Son), ... of a Father gifting His children, ... of a elder brother going before us, ... of a husband to a rebellious wife, ...
 
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Mark Quayle

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That is not logical.

All powerful is not "deleted" by being "all knowing"
Perhaps I should have said, "Because of his foresight ONLY,..." Does that help?
 
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Mark Quayle

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God, Himself, expresses Himself to us ... in human terms of family (Father, Son), ... of a Father gifting His children, ... of a elder brother going before us, ... of a husband to a rebellious wife, ...
Got some Scripture to go with that?
 
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StillGods

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Just curious, what do you do with the Scriptures that say he hates this and that person or kind of person? And on what Scriptures do you base the idea that he loves all people --and what sort of love do you mean by that?

I believe that refers to the behaviour of the person, not the person.

I have also experienced Gods love poured out into the very depth of my being freeing me from things I thought would never be gone. Since then (even before) no one can convince me God does not love each and every person He has knit together.

Only in Calvinism is God a god of hate. The rest of Christianity knows God loves all people.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I believe that refers to the behaviour of the person, not the person.

I have also experienced Gods love poured out into the very depth of my being freeing me from things I thought would never be gone. Since then (even before) no one can convince me God does not love each and every person He has knit together.

Only in Calvinism is God a god of hate. The rest of Christianity knows God loves all people.
"Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated", refers to the Behavior?

Psalm 5:5 ...You hate all who do wrong.

Deuteronomy 18:12 ...for whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord

Psalm 11:5 ...the one who loves violence His soul hates.


Granted, he hates those who behave like those examples. But it does say he hates THEM.
 
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John Mullally

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God is not like us, nor is he subject to his command to us.
Here Jesus implores us to love our enemies in order to mimic our heavenly Father. This does not rule out judgment.

Matthew 5:38 You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; 41and if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God, Himself, expresses Himself to us ... in human terms of family (Father, Son), ... of a Father gifting His children, ... of a elder brother going before us, ... of a husband to a rebellious wife, ...
No doubt. That doesn't mean that what we judge to be right or even as an example with our dealings compares to what he does. What we should do is not what he must do.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Here Jesus implores us to love our enemies in order to mimic our heavenly Father. Does your theology support that?

Matthew 5:38 You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; 41and if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
That's a bit of a loose use of that passage. It doesn't say to mimic him. But your point is sound, nevertheless. We should do as he does, but remember, he doesn't need to do as we are told to do. --That is to say, yes, he is reliably holy and pure, and so we need to pursue holiness and purity. But to say that the fact we must not kill, for example, does not mean that God must not kill. God has that right, and it is not murder for him to do it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I believe that refers to the behaviour of the person, not the person.

I have also experienced Gods love poured out into the very depth of my being freeing me from things I thought would never be gone. Since then (even before) no one can convince me God does not love each and every person He has knit together.

Only in Calvinism is God a god of hate. The rest of Christianity knows God loves all people.
Btw, in Calvinism God is a God of love. The fact that he hates some does not change the fact that he is a God of Love.
 
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