The World Needs Women Priests

Albion said:

Oh my, is THAT wrong! Scripture does indeed indicate that the clerical offices/orders are for males.

You may be thinking of the several other reasons that have been already mentioned which lead to the conclusion that women ought not to be ordained, but it is definitely NOT the case that the Bible is silent on the question.

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How about some Scriptural references? I have provided Scripture that says that in Christ Jesus there is no difference. Where does it say in your Bible that this isn't true?

pescador said:

How about some Scriptural references?

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Acts of the Apostles 6:3

1 Timothy 3:1-13

Titus 1:7

Albion said:

Acts of the Apostles 6:3

1 Timothy 3:1-13

Titus 1:7

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I posted, "How about some Scriptural references? I have provided Scripture that says that in Christ Jesus there is no difference. Where does it say in your Bible that this isn't true?" You haven't shown me that in Christ Jesus there is a difference between men and women, even though Scripture that there isn't. Just because there were social rules in the first century of the Common Era, that doesn't mean that there is a reason that women aren't equal to men in God's eyes.

Again, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Albion said:

Oh my, is THAT wrong! Scripture does indeed indicate that the clerical offices/orders are for males.

You may be thinking of the several other reasons that have been already mentioned which lead to the same conclusion--that women are not to be ordained. But it is definitely NOT the case that the Bible is silent on the question.

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I agree entirely with you on this matter. However, others who have been posting have taken the position that because scripture does not specifically state, "Thou shalt not ordain a woman as a priest" it is a perfectly acceptable practice. That, of course, throws wide open the door for anyone and everyone to demand priestly ordination.

pescador said:

I posted, "How about some Scriptural references? I have provided Scripture that says that in Christ Jesus there is no difference. Where does it say in your Bible that this isn't true?" You haven't shown me that in Christ Jesus there is a difference between men and women, even though Scripture that there isn't. Just because there were social rules in the first century of the Common Era, that doesn't mean that there is a reason that women aren't equal to men in God's eyes.

Again, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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So, where does scripture state the qualifications for a woman to be a priest? In I Timothy it clearly states that an elder is to be the husband of one wife. If a woman were a lesbian who was married to her wife, you might be able to stretch the meaning, but you know, as well as anyone, that Paul is referencing the marital relationship between a man (elder) and a woman (wife).

bbbbbbb said:

That, of course, throws wide open the door for anyone and everyone to demand priestly ordination.

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No, it doesn't. Nobody may demand ordination. That is as true of any particular woman as it is of any particular man. What we are arguing for is removing the exclusion of women as an entire group, by refusing to consider that any of them may legitimately be called.

bbbbbbb said:

So, where does scripture state the qualifications for a woman to be a priest? In I Timothy it clearly states that an elder is to be the husband of one wife. If a woman were a lesbian who was married to her wife, you might be able to stretch the meaning, but you know, as well as anyone, that Paul is referencing the marital relationship between a man (elder) and a woman (wife).

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Most churches who ordain women see the point of this passage as monogamy and faithfulness in marriage, rather than the maleness of the elder. Obviously, should the elder be a woman, she should be the faithful wife of one husband.

Paidiske said:

No, it doesn't. Nobody may demand ordination. That is as true of any particular woman as it is of any particular man. What we are arguing for is removing the exclusion of women as an entire group, by refusing to consider that any of them may legitimately be called.

Most churches who ordain women see the point of this passage as monogamy and faithfulness in marriage, rather than the maleness of the elder. Obviously, should the elder be a woman, she should be the faithful wife of one husband.

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As I am certain you know, the same arguments were used to establish the ordination of practicing homosexuals. What they have been arguing for is removing the exclusion of homosexuals as an entire group, by refusing to consider that any of them may legitimately be called. They argue that the passage in I Timothy 3 establishes the need for faithfulness in marriage irregardless of gender.

bbbbbbb said:

As I am certain you know, the same arguments were used to establish the ordination of practicing homosexuals. What they have been arguing for is removing the exclusion of homosexuals as an entire group, by refusing to consider that any of them may legitimately be called. They argue that the passage in I Timothy 3 establishes the need for faithfulness in marriage irregardless of gender.

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That may be true, but it's not fair to conflate the two issues.

Being a woman is not morally questionable, nor are women morally inferior to men. The objection to women's ordination has nothing to do with anything those women have done or not done, or might do.

pescador said:

I posted, "How about some Scriptural references? I have provided Scripture that says that in Christ Jesus there is no difference..

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...which says nothing about the position of or qualifications for being a pastor, priest, etc.

I, however, gave you a bunch of verses that explicitly speak of the clerical orders as being for men.

bbbbbbb said:

I agree entirely with you on this matter. However, others who have been posting have taken the position that because scripture does not specifically state, "Thou shalt not ordain a woman as a priest" it is a perfectly acceptable practice.

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That, of course, throws wide open the door for anyone and everyone to demand priestly ordination.

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"To demand" it. Ah, yes, that's so.

Thanks for the clarification.

bbbbbbb said:

So, where does scripture state the qualifications for a woman to be a priest? In I Timothy it clearly states that an elder is to be the husband of one wife. If a woman were a lesbian who was married to her wife, you might be able to stretch the meaning, but you know, as well as anyone, that Paul is referencing the marital relationship between a man (elder) and a woman (wife).

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A) That doesn't prove that women can't be ordained.
B) They are far from being the only qualities - why no mention of faith, calling, commitment etc?
C) Are you saying that all male ordinands HAVE to be married?
D) If you read the rest of that passage, it says that they have to be able to control their family, and their tempers, and not be too fond of drink or money.
How many male ordination candidates are asked if they have a family, (obviously, to control your children you have to have some), how much they drink, whether they have a temper etc etc? I would guess not very many. I would guess that this passage is mainly glossed over for male candidates. Yet as soon as a woman says that God has called her to ordination? "No, you have to be a husband to one wife, meaning that you have to be a man". That's it - if you don't have a wife, you are considered to be breaking the Biblical requirements for ordination and are unsuited to lead a church.

If these really were the only requirements, don't you think Paul might have mentioned faith, prayer life, studying the Scriptures, being filled with the Holy Spirit? These are vital and much more important than whether or not you are married.

Strong in Him said:

How many male ordination candidates are asked if they have a family, (obviously, to control your children you have to have some), how much they drink, whether they have a temper etc etc? I would guess not very many.

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To be fair, in my experience the selection and discernment process would look at all of these areas (for men and women). Where I am some of the interviews are with your spouse, and assess that relationship as well as other issues.

Paidiske said:

To be fair, in my experience the selection and discernment process would look at all of these areas (for men and women). Where I am some of the interviews are with your spouse, and assess that relationship as well as other issues.

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Yes, if the person is married; of course. The question about alcohol may also be raised in health assessments.
But my point was that if folk are saying, "Scripture says an elder MUST be the husband of one wife," then that means that an ordination candidate MUST be married - how could they fulfil that "criteria" otherwise?

Strong in Him said:

But my point was that if folk are saying, "Scripture says an elder MUST be the husband of one wife," then that means that an ordination candidate MUST be married - how could they fulfil that "criteria" otherwise?

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Yes; and plenty of people who oppose the ordination of women have no problem with bachelors in the ministry.

Albion said:

No, the two are not comparable. If that were the case, you could also say that all clergy must also wear clothes exactly as were worn by the Apostles in the first century or must speak Aramaic or something else.

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Exactly.
Which is why it makes no sense to say "Jesus' disciples were ..... therefore this group of people cannot be called by God to be ordained in his church."
There are many qualities that are looked for in a potential member of the clergy - being/dressing/acting exactly like Jesus' disciples is not one of them. We are called to be like Christ, not one of the 12.

Strong in Him said:

Exactly.
Which is why it makes no sense to say "Jesus' disciples were ..... therefore this group of people cannot be called by God to be ordained in his church."

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I disagree. What it "proves" is that the claim that all priests must, therefore, be Jewish misses the point.

bbbbbbb said:

I agree entirely with you on this matter. However, others who have been posting have taken the position that because scripture does not specifically state, "Thou shalt not ordain a woman as a priest" it is a perfectly acceptable practice. That, of course, throws wide open the door for anyone and everyone to demand priestly ordination.

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"The sky is falling; the sky is falling!" Chicken Little

Albion said:

I disagree. What it "proves" is that the claim that all priests must, therefore, be Jewish misses the point.

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In my view that is no different to the view that therefore "all priests must be men".

But anyway, it's God's call that's important; God, calling his children to use the gifts that he has given them, for his church and the furtherance of his kingdom. Calling, commitment, love and faith are important to God, not the gender of the person involved.

bbbbbbb said:

So?

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So if women were the first notified of His resurrection and tasked with telling others the good news, it's ridiculous to say that they can't be priests.