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The Resurrection of Jesus
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I couldn't help but notice you didn't address even one single (of the dozen or so) scriptures I cited in support of my points.
Why don't you take the scriptures I cited and tell us why they do not mean what I contend they do, and provide your alternate interpretation so that we may examine it?
And as far as your accusations that I'm not "catholic enough" for you, you can ease your head about that...
Lets stick to scripture, shall we?
We can start with just one, take some baby steps...
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Again, John was an EYEWITNESS to the resurrected Jesus, clearly if your contention is correct, He would NOT have said the above, for it, in your belief, HAD been revealed to Him what we shall be, for he HAD seen Christ "as He is"...
But instead John says EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of that...
Please provide your reasoning why John said this, and what you believe it means, if not what I contend.
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If you wish your view to be considered as an acceptable alternative to mine on this topic, You should Address them anyway, explain to us why they don't mean what I contend, and provide your alternate explanation of what they do mean, if you can...
If you can't just say so.. there is no need to hide behind the false premise of "well they're not applicable so I don't need to address them"
That's nothing but Circular reasoning.
Why not Show us HOW they aren't applicable by addressing each of them directly and proving they aren't applicable?
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1 John 3:2 is apocalyptical looking forward to His 2nd Advent. Read Revelation the vision given to John. Revelation was written after 1 John. So at the time John did not have that future revelation.
And no one sees Him now on this earth which is why John writes to his readers we eagerly await His future coming when we will be like Him.
hope this helps !!!
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and the rock was Christ.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
I would like you to show me where it is stated that Christ was resurrected into His heavenly body. Christ doesn't say "My body has become the heavenly body of flesh and bones." That's a pure manufactured idea that became tradition by some. In fact, 1 Corinthians 15 35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
Agreed, no disembodied human spirits in heaven unless one is a futurist. I am a full preterist.
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1 Corinthians 15:38-41
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
A summary of the bodies mentioned above are all PHYSICAL in nature
1- people
2- seed
3-animals
4-birds
5-fish
6- heavenly - the sun, moon and stars
7- earthly- all inclusive 1-5
So as we can see BODY above are all PHYSICAL in nature.
These Greek Lexicons agree that soma is physical just like Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15
Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees with me regarding the Resurrected BODY(SOMA).
Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body.
NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Cor 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
More proof soma is physical
as in Greek writings from Hesiod down, the living body: — of animals, James 3:3; — of man: τό σῶμα, absolutely, Luke 11:34; Luke 12:23; 1 Corinthians 6:13, etc.; ἐν σώματι εἶναι, of earthly life with its troubles, Hebrews 13:3; distinguished from τό αἷμα, 1 Corinthians 11:27; τό σῶμα and τά μέλη of it, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20; James 3:6; τό σῶμα the temple of τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα, 1 Corinthians 6:19; the instrument of the soul, τά διά τοῦ σωματου namely, πραχθεντα, 2 Corinthians 5:10; it is distinguished — from τό πνεῦμα, in Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec.; ; James 2:26 (4 Macc. 11:11); — from ἡ ψυχή, in Matthew 6:25; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:22 (Wis. 1:4 Wis. 8:19f; 2 Macc. 7:37 2Macc. 14:38; 4 Macc. 1:28, etc.); — from ἡ ψυχή and τό πνεῦμα together, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Song of the Three, 63); σῶμα ψυχικόν and σῶμα πνευματικόν are distinguished, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (see πνευματικός, 1 and ψυχικός, a.); τό σῶμα τίνος, Matthew 5:29; Luke 11:34; Romans 4:19; Romans 8:23 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)), etc.; ὁ ναός τοῦ σωματου αὐτοῦ, the temple which was his body, John 2:21; plural, Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Ephesians 5:28; the genitive of the possessor is omitted where it is easily learned from the context, as 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Hebrews 10:22(23), etc.; τό σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν, the body of our humiliation (subjective genitive), i. e. which we wear in this servile and lowly human life, opposed to τό σῶμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (i. e. τοῦ Χριστοῦ), the body which Christ has in his glorified state with God in heaven, Philippians 3:21; διά τοῦ σωματου τοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the death of Christ's body, Romans 7:4; διά τῆς προσφοράς τοῦ σωματου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the sacrificial offering of the body of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:10; τό σῶμα τῆς σαρκός, the body consisting of flesh, i. e. the physical body
Thayers Greek Lexicon
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Below is a BIBLICAL FACT from the oldest book in the bible.
Job 19:26
King James Bible
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Yes the Resurrection is REAL FLESH just as Jesus declared in Luke 24:39
hope this helps !!!
Job 19:26
King James Bible
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Yes the Resurrection is REAL FLESH just as Jesus declared in Luke 24:39
hope this helps !!!
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The Athanasian Creed- 500 ad
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully
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One of my favorites!
Job's hope and faith was that God would indeed appear at the end and vindicate him, which is exactly how the story ends.
Go'el is not one who redeems one from their sins, but is one who vindicates one's case. Job knew that his case was correct and that his friends were wrong. He knew that he would be vindicated, and in the end God arises upon the dust and does exactly that.
Job's hope was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Although he could not know for certain what would happen until God shows up, he believed by faith that even once the burning boils had struck off his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened.
Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; 30:30) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).
You'd be hard pressed to find a scholarly commentary to interpret Job 19:25-27 in any other way.
I hope you will enjoy this good scholarship on this matter, and reform your views accordingly:
(#1) "'I know that my redeemer lives' are familiar words to the Christian because of their adaptation to Christ in several hymns. However, the sense here is different from that which is usually understood when applied to Christ. The Christian idea of "Redeemer" is of one who is deliverer from sin. The Hebrew word "go'el" (#1350) should more appropriately be translated "Vindicator," i.e., one who delivers from affliction and wrong which is NOT due to sin. Job, unable to convince his friends of his innocence, was leaving it in God's hands to prove to them that he was NOT guilty of the sin of which they accused him. This is the high point in Job's stated trust in God and dependence upon him." (from Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible -- editor: Spiros Zodhiates, p. 689)
(#2) "[My Redeemer:] the language is legal: the redeemer is the 'vindicator' who will 'rise last to speak in court' (NEB). Job does not say expressly who he expects his vindicator will be; perhaps he knows, yet does not know, that it will be God. At the moment God is his enemy ... Yet on the other hand his hope is that he will see God 'on my side' (RSV) (26f.). Job is not necessarily thinking of vindication beyond death, though his language by no means rules that out. The destruction of his skin is what has happened already (there is no reference to 'worms' (AV) in the Hebrew), and his hope appears to be that in his flesh, i.e., while he is still alive, he will see his vindication." (International Bible Commentary -- editor F.F. Bruce, p. 533)
(#3) "[Redeemer] Heb. Go'el, from ga'al, 'to make a claim.' The Go'el was the next of kin whose duty it was to prevent land being sold out of the clan (Lev 25:25), and to avenge murder. Driver points out that the word means here the opposite to the Christian idea, viz. a deliverer, not from sin, but from affliction and wrong NOT due to sin. The best rendering here is 'Vindicator.'" (from the MacMillan One-Volume Bible Commentary -- editor: J.R. Dummelow, p306)
Job stated by faith that even once the burning boils had removed his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened at the end of the book.
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not interested in your cut n paste thanks but no thanks. Read Gill, Pulpit Commentary Homiletics, Barnes, Pooles and many other commentaries/theologians agree with me.
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Fair enough. I'm fully confident in the ability of our readers decide for themselves which of our positions has the greater scriptural weight behind it.
Peace be with you.
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...Interesting though that Gill allows for a 1st century fulfillment if this, at the timing of Christ's Resurrection, and you say you are in agreement with Him?:
"out of my fleshly eyes; from thence and with those shall I behold God manifest in the flesh, my incarnate God; and if Job was one of those saints that rose when Christ did, as some say F7, he saw him in the flesh and with his fleshly eyes."
Job 19:26 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
"out of my fleshly eyes; from thence and with those shall I behold God manifest in the flesh, my incarnate God; and if Job was one of those saints that rose when Christ did, as some say F7, he saw him in the flesh and with his fleshly eyes."
Job 19:26 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
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And you agree with Barnes here?:
Disease might carry its fearful ravages through all his frame, until it utterly wasted away, yet; he had confidence that he would see his vindicator and Redeemer on the earth. It cannot be proved that this refers to the resurrection of that body, and indeed the natural interpretation is against it. It is, rather, that though without a body, or though his body should all waste away, he would see God as his vindicator. He would not always be left overwhelmed in this manner with calamities and reproaches. He would be permitted to see God coming forth as his Goal or Avenger, and manifesting himself as his friend. Calmly, therefore, he would bear these reproaches and trials, and see his frame waste away, for it would not always be so - God would yet undertake and vindicate his cause.
Job 19 Barnes' Notes
Disease might carry its fearful ravages through all his frame, until it utterly wasted away, yet; he had confidence that he would see his vindicator and Redeemer on the earth. It cannot be proved that this refers to the resurrection of that body, and indeed the natural interpretation is against it. It is, rather, that though without a body, or though his body should all waste away, he would see God as his vindicator. He would not always be left overwhelmed in this manner with calamities and reproaches. He would be permitted to see God coming forth as his Goal or Avenger, and manifesting himself as his friend. Calmly, therefore, he would bear these reproaches and trials, and see his frame waste away, for it would not always be so - God would yet undertake and vindicate his cause.
Job 19 Barnes' Notes
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I have not been in disagreement with the bodily resurrection. And neither has the majority of Christians, contrary to your bogus poll.
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