Is it ethical to be a Christian in the US?

Tolworth John · Sep 22, 2020

Given the history of American race relations if America was Buddhist there would still be race relation problems.
Buddhism does not have any answers just look how they have and are treating those they see as other in Shi lankar and in Burma how they treated the Tamla and Muslim minorities.

Police or white violence against blacks is not the major cause of black death by violence.

The need is to deal with the violence in society and the root causes of that violence.

pdudgeon · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
What made society cohensive? Are you implying that the Native Americans, the Asians, and other people in the US that were not Christians were somehow not real Americans (despite in many cases contributing real labor to building this country)? Is America really only possible with white Christian nationalism as the "glue"? I don't think many of the Founding Fathers agreed with that sentiment... not at all.

Jefferson would not have agreed, (he was a Deist, not a Christian) but the rest of them did agree, including the Pilgrims who came to this land, and who befriended the Indian tribe that lived closest to them.
As a result of their efforts, we celebrate Thanksgiving every year in America. Did you know that?

America as we know it, was founded upon Christian principles.
The Native Americans were reached by several missionaries on all Coasts, in the same way that Christ directed His followers to reach out to others.

They are still reaching out today, housing the poor, teaching orphans trade skills, reaching children who are living on the street, there are so many examples of Christianity in action all over the World, if you care to look.:
Research the following and see for yourself!

Don Bosco, Junipero Serra, Mother Theresa,
Gospel for Asia,
Franciscan Friars of the Atonement at Graymoor, in Garrison, NY,
Priests of the Sacred Heart in Hales Corners, WI

the above list is just the beginning of how Christianity reaches out all over the World.

pdudgeon · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
That's a very timely question, since I see something like humanistic Buddhism as the most obvious alternative from a pragmatic standpoint, to both Christianity and secular humanism. This is the kind of Buddhism practiced in advanced nations such as South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan.

I don't believe the Buddhism of Thailand is particularly humanistic, but I'm not as much an expert on that nation's predominant religion. It seems to me, from what I little I know, it is on the whole no worse than the United States.

As far as expectations, I don't expect the US to be any different in my lifetime, Christian dominance will continue because of the inertia of tradition and herd. But the herd doesn't make something ethical.

If you admire the Buddhism that is practiced in South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, why do you not emigrate there? Have you ever contemplated doing so?

Kenny'sID · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
If we look at the fruits of Christianity in the US, right now it seems fairly dark and grim

If the fruits are dim, then you are not looking at true christianity or Christians.

What you are doing is referring to non Christian activity, as Christian as means to dishonestly attack the right.

See the spin now?

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

pdudgeon said:
If you admire the Buddhism that is practiced in South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, why do you not emigrate there? Have you ever contemplated doing so?

You are aware there are humanistic Buddhists in the US (like Asia, it is the dominant form of Buddhism here)? I merely used those nations as examples that might be more familiar.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

pdudgeon said:
Jefferson would not have agreed, (he was a Deist, not a Christian) but the rest of them did agree, including the Pilgrims who came to this land, and who befriended the Indian tribe that lived closest to them.

The pilgrims also persecuted every other religion, even other Christians. Some legacy to build upon. I think Jefferson was far closer to the truth in this matter, than the pilgrims.

As a result of their efforts, we celebrate Thanksgiving every year in America. Did you know that?

Thanksgiving was instituted during the Civil War by Lincoln.

America as we know it, was founded upon Christian principles.
The Native Americans were reached by several missionaries on all Coasts, in the same way that Christ directed His followers to reach out to others.

In the same way? By imperialism? Really?

Kenny'sID · Sep 22, 2020

And asking if it is ethical to be a Christian, tells us right off someting isn't right, and something amiss is comming our way.

Of course its ethical to be a Christian.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
And asking if it is ethical to be a Christian, tells us right off someting isn't right, and something amiss is comming our way.

Of course its ethical to be a Christian.

You're just making an assertion without evidence.

Kenny'sID · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
You're just making an assertion without evidence.

I imagine you will refuse to see the evidence as you already have, but FWIW, it's right there in your wording.

Hazelelponi · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
It isn't clear how that's an ethical defense of being a Christian at all. Why are God's favors inherently good if they potentially come at the expense of others? Putting a "Good guy" or "Bad guy" mask on the issues really doesn't elucidate sound ethics in any meaningful way. That's the mentality of comic books, not serious ethical deliberation.

What comes at the expense of others that comes from Christ?

The Bible sees the world in two distinct groups - God's people, and everyone else.

However, racism isn't inherent in that because race is never a consideration. An African, an American, a North Korean, a Chinese, myself, in Christ we are all one, race is not a factor.

Have their been people who have called themselves Christian and not seen that God is no discriminator of persons? Sure... but that isn't a reflection on Christianity, it's a reflection upon the errant individual.

ANY faith, even atheism, can be used with racial motives and hate. As a matter of fact more people have died the world over as a result of humanist ideals than Christianity.

Christianity seeks to save the lost, welcoming all regardless of the who... it seeks so in love. But Christians themselves know there are times we must protect ourselves and our way of life or die under the knife of another.

Humans are faulty, humans are frail and imperfect.

Even between myself and you I hold no animosity nor do anything but wish you the best in life, even if I don't agree with your life choices.

That doesnt mean I'm going to roll over and do nothing to protect myself from you if you seek to restrict my freedom to follow my God anymore than I expect you to lay over and die for me. .

There are times in life we shake hands and agree to disagree and walk away from one another, instead of decide who needs eliminated.

That's Christianity (we shake the dust from our feet).... and that's where we differ as you seem to think you have the right to eliminate my own freedoms and way of life, and appear, at least for the purposes of this thread, unwilling to agree to disagree with me about lifestyle and go your own way in peace.

So who is really the dangerous one here?

keith99 · Sep 22, 2020

I see no ethical issue with being a Christian in America.

I see no ethical question with being an American Christian where the two words are inseperable. That is both unethical and unChristian.

The ethical issue is how Christians react to those American Christians who are becoming little different than the German Christians (meaning those who accepted the state version of Christianity) during WW II.

At the least one would hope actual Christians would be quite clear that the merger of Christ and state has nothng to do with the Christ they follow.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
What comes at the expense of others that comes from Christ?

Being a Christian means participating in Christian community, not merely relating to Christ as a notion or even a personal religious experience.

However, racism isn't inherent in that because race is never a consideration. An African, an American, a North Korean, a Chinese, myself, in Christ we are all one, race is not a factor.

But Christianity is enmeshed in colonialism and racism. That's why American Evangelicals overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump. Even white mainline Protestants and Catholics voted for Trump by significant margins, as compared to the general American public.

Have their been people who have called themselves Christian and not seen that God is no discriminator of persons? Sure... but that isn't a reflection on Christianity, it's a reflection upon the errant individual.

That would be a fair objection if we were just talking about a fluke rather than a consistent pattern of racism, colonialism, and homophobia.

ANY faith, even atheism, can be used with racial motives and hate. As a matter of fact more people have died the world over as a result of humanist ideals than Christianity.

I wouldn't consider Hitler to be a humanist.

Christianity seeks to save the lost, welcoming all regardless of the who... it seeks so in love.

Many Christians have a warped understanding of love. Your religion also doesn't welcome all, it has rules just like any other religion about who is a real Christian and who isn't. LGBT persons need not apply.

Humans are faulty, humans are frail and imperfect.

That's not an excuse for moral and intellectual laziness. Let's not make the good the enemy of the perfect.

Even between myself and you I hold no animosity nor do anything but wish you the best in life, even if I don't agree with your life choices.

I also don't want to have animosity towards anyone, but it's difficult not to when people basically want to shove a totalitarian religious ideology down your throat, no matter how toxic you find it to be.

That doesnt mean I'm going to roll over and do nothing to protect myself from you if you seek to restrict my freedom to follow my God anymore than I expect you to lay over and die for me.

That's projection on your part as a Christian, I am afraid. I have never said that just because Christianity may be unethical, that people shouldn't have personal religious liberty. FWIW, I am inclined to reject violence as a political means (unlike many Christians, who seem to think it's OK to justify the violence of the State if it's done by the "good guys"). Questioning a religious ideology's privilege is not the same as persecution.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

keith99 said:
I see no ethical issue with being a Christian in America.

I see no ethical question with being an American Christian where the two words are inseperable. That is both unethical and unChristian.

The ethical issue is how Christians react to those American Christians who are becoming little different than the German Christians (meaning those who accepted the state version of Christianity) during WW II.

At the least one would hope actual Christians would be quite clear that the merger of Christ and state has nothng to do with the Christ they follow.

My issue is that I am afraid the fascistic tendencies of Christians are just par for the course. Even many Christians interpret Jesus as going to come back and impose a totalitarian order on the world, for instance. So perhaps the apple doesn't fall far from the tree?

I would actually like to be wrong on this one, but so far I'm unpersuaded.

Hazelelponi · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Being a Christian means participating in Christian community, not merely relating to Christ as a notion or even a personal religious experience

Being Christian means first and foremost following Christ and the Apostles, and being part of the community of believers...

FireDragon76 said:
But Christianity is enmeshed in colonialism and racism

"CHRISTIANITY" has nothing to do with racism and colonialism...

FireDragon76 said:
That's why American Evangelicals overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump.

I personally voted for Trump because A.) I wasn't about to elect a dominionist and B.) I believe in the same ideals as Trump.

What I'm not is a racist...

FireDragon76 said:
Even white mainline Protestants and Catholics voted for Trump by significant margins, as compared to the general American public.

People's interests often align.

Take yourself for instance, you hate Christianity with such a passion you find it "unethical", and wish to destroy it in America...

And look, your interests align perfectly with those trying to overturn our nations government, and instill Marxism via your voting pattern.

Does that mean your a Marxist?

And what of the Islamic extremists that want to see Christianity destroyed (even as they would kill you)... their voting patterns are currently aligned with your own..

Does that make you an Islamic extremist? Or does that mean your interests at current moment align...

FireDragon76 said:
I also don't want to have animosity towards anyone, but it's difficult not to when people basically want to shove a totalitarian religious ideology down your throat

Who has tried shoving their ideology down your throat? I mean really? Have you been kidnapped and forced to follow Christianity against your will? Or are you living your life in a Christian nation surrounded by freinds who agree with your way of life, and many others happy to keep their nose out of your private life?

Having differences of opinion of what should be considered proper and legal in the public sphere is just that.. a difference of opinion on how we should go forward as a nation..

Again, not to decide which party gets eliminated. With open and honest discussion such things can be worked out, even among the faulty.

It's when people stop all open and honest discussion that things have a tendency to go south.

You yourself end that discussion when you open threads like this. That tells me you wish only to end my freedom for faith, and it's time for war...

Just saying.

FireDragon76 said:
That's projection on your part as a Christian, I am afraid. I have never said that just because Christianity may be unethical, that people shouldn't have personal religious liberty.

It's sure what it sounds like to me... the next step from having no code of ethics you deem appropriate is second class citizenry... makes you no different from those you claim to oppose, in actuality.

FireDragon76 said:
FWIW, I am inclined to reject violence as a political means (unlike many Christians, who seem to think it's OK to justify the violence of the State if it's done by the "good guys").

I oppose personal violence, even in self defense. However, that is my own proclivity I foist on no one else, as it is born out of my own faith.

However, we don't live in this kumbaya world the left wishes to pretend exist. I've seen FAR to much in life, evil exists and I've seen it's face...

one of the main purposes of government is to protect its citizens (you know, against all enemies both foreign and domestic), and I think while it's regretable, there are times life calls for government to step up and do just that, with violence if diplomacy fails.

Otherwise, there's little to no purpose of government at all.

FireDragon76 said:
Questioning a religious ideology's privilege is not the same as persecution.

Yet your not questioning an ideologies privilege (as if that's such a thing in this day) your questioning its very right to exist.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Being Christian means first and foremost following Christ and the Apostles, and being part of the community of believers...

"CHRISTIANITY" has nothing to do with racism and colonialism...

I personally voted for Trump because A.) I wasn't about to elect a dominionist and B.) I believe in the same ideals as Trump.

What I'm not is a racist...

People's interests often align.

Take yourself for instance, you hate Christianity with such a passion you find it "unethical", and wish to destroy it in America...

And look, your interests align perfectly with those trying to overturn our nations government, and instill Marxism via your voting pattern.

Does that mean your a Marxist?

And what of the Islamic extremists that want to see Christianity destroyed (even as they would kill you)... their voting patterns are currently aligned with your own..

Does that make you an Islamic extremist? Or does that mean your interests at current moment align...

Who has tried shoving their ideology down your throat? I mean really? Have you been kidnapped and forced to follow Christianity against your will? Or are you living your life in a Christian nation surrounded by freinds who agree with your way of life, and many others happy to keep their nose out of your private life?

Having differences of opinion of what should be considered proper and legal in the public sphere is just that.. a difference of opinion on how we should go forward as a nation..

Again, not to decide which party gets eliminated. With open and honest discussion such things can be worked out, even among the faulty.

It's when people stop all open and honest discussion that things have a tendency to go south.

You yourself end that discussion when you open threads like this. That tells me you wish only to end my freedom for faith, and it's time for war...

Just saying.

It's sure what it sounds like to me... the next step from having no code of ethics you deem appropriate is second class citizenry... makes you no different from those you claim to oppose, in actuality.

I oppose personal violence, even in self defense. However, that is my own proclivity I foist on no one else, as it is born out of my own faith.

However, we don't live in this kumbaya world the left wishes to pretend exist. I've seen FAR to much in life, evil exists and I've seen it's face...

one of the main purposes of government is to protect its citizens (you know, against all enemies both foreign and domestic), and I think while it's regretable, there are times life calls for government to step up and do just that, with violence if diplomacy fails.

Otherwise, there's little to no purpose of government at all.

Yet your not questioning an ideologies privilege (as if that's such a thing in this day) your questioning its very right to exist.

No, questioning the ethics of a religion is not the same thing as saying that people have no right to believe in it. That only follows if you deny the concept of personal liberty in matters of religion.

What I'm really saying is "Why should I be a Christian? What is so ethically compelling about it versus any other religion?"

Hazelelponi · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
What I'm really saying is "Why should I be a Christian? What is so ethically compelling about

You cant compare God's ethics to your own... you have no perfect frame of reference with which to judge from.

Can the addict who is likely to die without his next dose of heroin get the help he needs to neither die nor get that next dose, without help from outside the situation?

Christianity is about life, and living... and God's judgment - and a path to salvation He laid out for us.

We cant judge God, we can only seek to figure out that He is God, and if so, how will we react to that revelation.

There is enough light for one to see...

Halbhh · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
This is a serious question I have been pondering: is it even ethical to be a Christian in the US? If we look at the fruits of Christianity in the US, right now it seems fairly dark and grim. All I have to do is turn on the news and see a society bursting at the seems with divisions, discord, and animosity, rather than coming together to deal with a pandemic. And it seems to me its mostly being instigated by the political Right in this country, often with the justification that they are in some kind of war or struggle with perceived non-Christians or anti-Christians who are "threatening" their way of life. Genuine concern for the actual humans behind the mask of their perceived enemies doesn't seem to factor in.

It's hard to gauge perfectly just how many truly follow Christ's teachings, but I have been in many cities and had many conversations (hundreds, well above 500 lasting more than a few minutes) in both secular and church gatherings over decades, and I've really paid attention to people....

If I had to guess, it seems to me that maybe something like 1 in 15 or 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 people in the groups I've seen believe in Christ in a full way so that they believe enough to listen to Him and follow Him -- actually do as He says. Notice that's not at all like merely 'being Christian' in an American sense. (a lot of people might do 1 or 2 things He said occasionally....instead of that, I'm referring to generally living most of the time doing as He says in most things mostly) (for example, truly listening to Christ we come to hear that Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. actually is as it says: all the time everywhere (without exceptions; even unto 'love your enemy'), and verses 13 and 14 are about that, and the 2 outcomes of going one way or the other)

But 1 in 20 for instance, just 5% of a population, isn't enough to cause the most predominate social outcomes.

Rather, the other 95% are causing those outcomes.

Nor would be even 20%. (the other 80% would predominate)

You are seeing the result of nominal, or in-name-only, Christianity. A politicized or co-opted 'Christianity' where the bible is only a prop, or a mysterious book that can be claimed to suggest things opposite of what it says when read fully.

SkyWriting · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
According to the Buddha, good friends are the whole of the holy life. I accept this teaching as valid, as I believe it is simply intuitive- our friends can influence us for good or bad.According to most Christians, fellowship with other Christians is a normal or necessary part of a Christian life.So I do think these notions are potentially not reconcilable, at least for me personally. And I suspect, for a great many other people that are "none" or "done".

I'll go over it again. Christianity is what you think and do and your relationship with God, and not what others think or do. Your response was all about what others think or do and comparative religion is not Christianity.

SkyWriting · Sep 22, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Is it even ethical to be a Christian in the US?

Yes. Any location is ethical and moral. Space, under the ocean, inside the Kremlin, dead, anywhere is the optimal location.

FireDragon76 · Sep 22, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
You cant compare God's ethics to your own... you have no perfect frame of reference with which to judge from.

I don't need a perfect frame of reference. Part of being a mature human being is making our own judgements and choices.

Can the addict who is likely to die without his next dose of heroin get the help he needs to neither die nor get that next dose, without help from outside the situation?

That implies that human beings are unable to understand for ourselves, our predicament. And that's ridiculous. We sent men to the moon, we simply don't need divine help to understand the world's problems. Too many people are afraid, angry, and prejudiced against their neighbors, that is obvious. One doesn't need divine revelation to understand that. Unfortunately, rather than being a balm for those problems, it seems much of American religion, feeds peoples fears.

Is it ethical to be a Christian in the US?

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