Illinois wants federal bailout

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
37,098
13,153
✟1,086,673.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Some states with large cities have faced huge problems. COVID spreads most in crowded cities (and rallies, Sturgis, and other crowded gatherings.) Look at the mist affected states. California, Texas, Florida, NY, Georgia, Illinois--our largest cities are in those states.

All states have huge problems, but urban areas more so.
 
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Some blue states would likely see a net positive from that...however, others (who are in serious budget & debt trouble like Illinois and New Jersey) probably wouldn't like that too much.

California and New York will start liking it less and less as more of the wealthy folks keep leaving the states putting a sizeable dent in their internal revenues
States like NJ and Illinois wouldn't have serious budget & debt issues if we weren't sending so much money to red states via the federal government's redistribution/socialism network for conservatives. Of course, part of the problem in NJ was that we had a whale of a dummy for governor with Chris Chrispie. And your speculation that people would leave California and NY (or any other blue state for that matter) is way off. If people leave there are others to replace them immediately, and if there comes a time when there are no others to replace them immediately then real estate prices will drop and attract back the people who left and/or people to replace them. You are just giving your fantasy of what would happen based on the fact that you're ultra-right-wing conservative.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,705
14,589
Here
✟1,204,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
States like NJ and Illinois wouldn't have serious budget & debt issues if we weren't sending so much money to red states via the federal government's redistribution/socialism network for conservatives.

NJ might be in a better spot, but Illinois' pension program is unsustainable.

If you don't want to hear it from me, maybe you'll be more receptive to CNN saying it:
How Illinois became America's most messed-up state
(unless you consider CNN to be "ultra-right-wing conservative"?)

They, in detail, explain how the problem arose back in the 80's, how it got much worse by 1995, and how the problem has been snowballing since 2001.

And your speculation that people would leave California and NY (or any other blue state for that matter) is way off. If people leave there are others to replace them immediately

For lower and middle class earners, that may be true...however millionaires aren't as easy to "replace" as there are far fewer of them.

In terms of Taxation, 1 Brad Pitt leaving, and 15 lower-middle class people coming in is a net negative in terms of tax revenues for the state.

Andrew Cuomo has even acknowledged this with his own state.
You are just giving your fantasy of what would happen based on the fact that you're ultra-right-wing conservative.

In your view, is everything that's not left of the Overton window "Ultra-right-wing conservative"? It's not the first time you've made that accusation.

We've already covered in this in other threads.
I'm moderate on guns
I'm in favor of single payer healthcare
I'm in favor of gay marriage
I support a woman's right to choose
I'm in favor of marijuana legalization
I accept climate change
I'm a staunch advocate for the separation of Church and State

Because I may be a tad to the right of center on a few regulatory and tax issues, and don't immerse myself in PC culture, that doesn't equate to "Ultra-right-wing conservative"...if it does in your book, then you're using a different book than 99% of the population.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
NJ might be in a better spot, but Illinois' pension program is unsustainable.

If you don't want to hear it from me, maybe you'll be more receptive to CNN saying it:
How Illinois became America's most messed-up state
(unless you consider CNN to be "ultra-right-wing conservative"?)

They, in detail, explain how the problem arose back in the 80's, how it got much worse by 1995, and how the problem has been snowballing since 2001.
I'm sure Illinois' problem would be helped and even eliminated if they didn't hemorrhage billions of dollars to the federal government which then get redistributed to other states instead of going back to the state of Illinois. As for NJ, two conservative governors decimated our pension program - Whitman and Chris Chrispie.

The CNN report never mentions how Illinois could be helped if they stopped bleeding money to red states. Chicago is a productive city, third largest in the nation. It is almost like NYC or L.A. and is wealthy and lucrative. It can carry the whole state of Illinois on its shoulders with tons of money left to carry other states (which is what it does). At some point it becomes too much. Conservative red states live to bleed dry the blue states and cities which drive this nation's economy. How you don't understand that is beyond me.

For lower and middle class earners, that may be true...however millionaires aren't as easy to "replace" as there are far fewer of them.

In terms of Taxation, 1 Brad Pitt leaving, and 15 lower-middle class people coming in is a net negative in terms of tax revenues for the state.

Andrew Cuomo has even acknowledged this with his own state.
Millionaires are just as easily returned or replaced as any other demographic, I don't know why you think otherwise. People living in states like NY and NJ vs other states is an issue of simple market economics, supply and demand.

It is expensive to live in NY or NJ (and other similar states) for a reason. You get what you pay for. If people don't perceive a value (i.e. they don't believe they're getting what they're paying for) they will leave. If they leave and demand shrinks, supply grows. If supply grows, prices go down. When prices go down, people at some point return to buying. It's that simple.

People want to live in NY and NJ because these states, especially around NYC and Philly, offer so, so much. The proof is in the pricing. Home costs, taxes, etc. are very high and there is no shortage of people paying.

Yes, people are leaving. That is because demand has been so high for decades that prices are higher than ever. This is a correction in the market. It's just like any other hot item that sells at a high price when demand is high and then when demand cools prices come down. It doesn't mean that item is on its way out. It means the item isn't as hot as it was. But the item can still be a hot and coveted item and continue to sell at a high price, albeit not as high. Sales can remain high, albeit not as high.

What do you think will happen when a $1 million apartment in NYC drops to half of that? Or a quarter of that? Will a millionaire say "well, I'd rather save $50,000 and live in Paduca, Kentucky!"??? No. The millionaire will jump all over that just for the investment alone.

I WISH that NY and NJ would see a more drastic drop in prices and costs. That would make my life so much easier here! It won't happen. Then again, I don't see myself being nearly as happy living in Fort Wayne, Indiana, no matter how much money I'd save. It's not worth the trade-off for the overall quality of life.

In your view, is everything that's not left of the Overton window "Ultra-right-wing conservative"? It's not the first time you've made that accusation.

We've already covered in this in other threads.
I'm moderate on guns
I'm in favor of single payer healthcare
I'm in favor of gay marriage
I support a woman's right to choose
I'm in favor of marijuana legalization
I accept climate change
I'm a staunch advocate for the separation of Church and State

Because I may be a tad to the right of center on a few regulatory and tax issues, and don't immerse myself in PC culture, that doesn't equate to "Ultra-right-wing conservative"...if it does in your book, then you're using a different book than 99% of the population.
You have stated that you're a libertarian and that is the ultra-right wing of conservatism. It is anarcho-conservative but radical. It is based on survival of the fittest and let everyone duke it out wherever money and the market can't settle things. It is rooted in Ayn Rand's anti-Christian philosophy (shared by most pagan/occult religions) of materialism/idolatry and ultra-selfishness.

You're a libertarian and that is radical right-wing. Wanting to eliminate laws against killing babies, prostituting and trafficking women, selling narcotics, destroying traditional marriage, etc. doesn't mean you're not a conservative - most conservatives espouse these many non-Christian political views even if they are Christians.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,705
14,589
Here
✟1,204,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You have stated that you're a libertarian and that is the ultra-right wing of conservatism. It is anarcho-conservative but radical. It is based on survival of the fittest and let everyone duke it out wherever money and the market can't settle things. It is rooted in Ayn Rand's anti-Christian philosophy (shared by most pagan/occult religions) of materialism/idolatry and ultra-selfishness.

You're a libertarian and that is radical right-wing. Wanting to eliminate laws against killing babies, prostituting and trafficking women, selling narcotics, destroying traditional marriage, etc. doesn't mean you're not a conservative - most conservatives espouse these many non-Christian political views even if they are Christians.

Libertarianism isn't a monolith... I said I typically vote for The Libertarian Party. I think you're confusing "people who talk about being a libertarian on Facebook" with the mainstream political platforms of the The Libertarian Party.

Gary Johnson and Bill Weld (or Jo Jorgensen, this year's nominee for that matter) can hardly be considered "anarcho-capitalist" by any stretch of the imagination.

...not to mention, some of those views are shared by a large segment of democrats as well, do you also consider them "ultra-right-wing conservatives"?

...apart from the logical fallacy trying to equate voluntary prostitution (like what goes on in Nevada) with "trafficking of women" (and even on that topic, more democrats support legalizing prostitution than republicans)
If "destruction of traditional marriage" (whatever that means), pot decriminalization, and abortion are something you find morally objectionable, but you don't like republicans, looks like you don't have anyone to vote for... (as the Democrats, Green Party, and Libertarians are all in agreement on those 3 issues)
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,705
14,589
Here
✟1,204,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The CNN report never mentions how Illinois could be helped if they stopped bleeding money to red states. Chicago is a productive city, third largest in the nation. It is almost like NYC or L.A. and is wealthy and lucrative. It can carry the whole state of Illinois on its shoulders with tons of money left to carry other states (which is what it does). At some point it becomes too much. Conservative red states live to bleed dry the blue states and cities which drive this nation's economy. How you don't understand that is beyond me.

That's a myth... I know it's a popular narrative that "all the dumb country bumpkins down south are just mooching off of the super-smart progressives in the blue states".

Those types of narratives encompass quite a few logistical issues.
The most glaring one is that federal spending per person is a misleading statistic. For instance, if a national park gets put up and maintained in a city with 100,000 people, that's going to be a lower "per person" spending rate than if the park was in a city with 10,000 people. (even though the park may have cost the same amount). It also fails to take into account spending to the red states that benefit the blue states (IE: funds for things like farming subsidies...that happen largely in red states, but blue states reap the benefits of when they go to the grocery...I don't know of any large scale farms in Chicago or NYC that could grow enough produce for the local market, do you?)

Second, federal income tax receipts, in a progressive tax structure, means the states with a lot of people, and higher concentrations of rich people, are going to pay more in federal income taxes. Are you proposing a flat tax to correct that?, or eliminating the federal income tax altogether and just going with a "weak fed"/"strong state" model? Sounds like a pretty conservative value if that's the case.



New York and California are in the same boat, and their public sector union pension plan isn't a mess like it is in Illinois.

If it were a consistent issue then NY and Cali would be having the same issues that Illinois has...but they don't.

What they also don't have? A 25 year track record of ineffectively negotiating with public sector unions like Illinois.


The major irony here, you just bashed me for voting libertarian for a perceived unethical position of "survival of the fittest", yet, your statement in the previous post was:

This is why we need to end federal taxation and let each state handle its own taxation. This way productive states like New Jersey and New York will keep all those billions that we pay to the federal government and the red states like Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc. can pay their own way instead of leaching off the blue states through federal redistribution of wealth.

...sounds like your objection doesn't actually have anything do to with being opposed to a libertarian mentality as your statement is "survival of the fittest"-centric. Seems to me like your objection is more rooted differences of political opinions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0