Has anyone been thru a Mormon temple?
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calgal
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Works come as a result of faith. They cannot be a substitute for grace. We are not able as humans to be 100% sinless. We on our own do not deserve to be with God. Through Christ, we can be made whole and our sins forgiven. Read Galatians for a better understanding. God forgives us completely (that does not mean we are off the hook: a murderer can accept Christ but has to fulfill their earthly sentence. God will decide who goes to heaven and who does not. I cannot think like the Lord but I trust Him completely.
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I think it is impossible to separate faith and works. Grace is what saves us, and we live in that grace with our whole being, i.e., what we believe and what we do. I don't think you can have faith without works.
God Bless,
Neal
God Bless,
Neal
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Maybe; maybe not. Either way, it's kind of irrelevant to this particular discussion.
Of course not, but that would be true vice versa also. Works without grace are useless, just as grace without works is ineffective. Both are important to salvation.
I think you can have faith without works, but it's only going to get you so far and last you so long until it unravels. The two are very directly connected. Again, this is two-way. Faith is necessary to make your works greater, and works are necessary for you to learn and grow spiritually. It is a relationship one must always be looking to improve.
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This works-faith discussion is going awry.... and in error.
You do not understand, Jodrey, and with all due respect, Neal (mod) is confusing the issue here.
The question really is: What is necessary for man in a right relationship to God (i.e., salvation)?
IT IS ONLY FAITH, FAITH, FAITH!!! Nothing more, nothing less!!!!!!
Our right relationship/salvation from God is: THRU GRACE ALONE, BY FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE.
That is it. That is it. That is it. (emphasis added)
People, have you never read the accounts in the gospels during the crucifiction when the Lord was dying and one of the theives asked the Lord to remember him. The Lord replied, "Today, YOU WILL BE WITH ME in paradise." The thief did not "work" to prove he would be in paradise, he was DYING!!! Did the Lord play a cruel trick on him by saying something that wasn't true??? I don't think so.
If the Lord said the theif would be there, the thief was there. That is rock solid assurance and proof that salvation is: BY GRACE, THRU FAITH IN CHRIST ---ALONE.
This is not rocket science here, and what Jodrey does not understand and Neal's Catholic background is making this confusing. I am sorry, but this is essential Christian doctrine here as far as I am concerned.
You do not understand, Jodrey, and with all due respect, Neal (mod) is confusing the issue here.
The question really is: What is necessary for man in a right relationship to God (i.e., salvation)?
IT IS ONLY FAITH, FAITH, FAITH!!! Nothing more, nothing less!!!!!!
Our right relationship/salvation from God is: THRU GRACE ALONE, BY FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE.
That is it. That is it. That is it. (emphasis added)
People, have you never read the accounts in the gospels during the crucifiction when the Lord was dying and one of the theives asked the Lord to remember him. The Lord replied, "Today, YOU WILL BE WITH ME in paradise." The thief did not "work" to prove he would be in paradise, he was DYING!!! Did the Lord play a cruel trick on him by saying something that wasn't true??? I don't think so.
If the Lord said the theif would be there, the thief was there. That is rock solid assurance and proof that salvation is: BY GRACE, THRU FAITH IN CHRIST ---ALONE.
This is not rocket science here, and what Jodrey does not understand and Neal's Catholic background is making this confusing. I am sorry, but this is essential Christian doctrine here as far as I am concerned.
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straightforward
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I see this having more to do with the true heart reasons for doing things and God reading our hearts...not what we speak to others in judgement...and having to stand up to the same judgement by God as we have dished out to others. Judge not lest ye be judged. We have to check out the log in our eye. Does this really have to do with works...or hypocracy?
I still think this verse, when looked at in context, says to us that our works will be to no avail if we do not truely know Christ and the will of the Father.
Yes...it does need clarification! Are you implying the "reward" is salvation? Wouldn't that mean we cannot attain it here? Since I know our treasure is in heaven I think we are speaking about another "reward". That does not mean that we do the works because we will get something in the end...we do them because they are the will of the Father.
If we read this in context this had to do with brining the Gospel to the Gentiles and clarification, from God, that the Gospel was not just for the Jews.
Again, if we read as you would have us, this would imply that we do not get salvation until the judgement!
We do have a different 'walk' AFTER salvation but it is not in the human nature of man to do so...it is of God through the Spirit who is in us guiding us.
Again, works are a natural part of our faith...there is no arguement about that...is there? If the Spirit prompts us to do it...we do it!
Don't forget the rest of it...1 Peter 1:18-21 says more, "knowing that you were not redeemed (ransomed) with perishable things like silver or gold from you futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."
All the Glory to God! That's where it all ends up and so it should be!!!
To show us we need a redeemer! If we could do it all by ourselves we wouldn't need Him!
I can!It is really wonderful to see how God works! I could not do, on my own, the things He has done through me. Remember, He is outside of time and there for can set His people, who are open to His will, in any situation to do just the right thing at the right time. Just the right word can bring someone closer to Christ. Just the right smile or caring word...can show His love. These are works to me! They do not come out of me through my own perserverance! I throw out my will and let Him guide me. There are times I will say something and not know why, or how. Days later, weeks later, months later, sometimes years later, we sometimes get to see the result of it...someone growing closer to God. I do not do anything to get into heaven! That was done for me. I make myself available to God for whatever He wants...that is when His will get's done. My will and logic tend to get in the way. Things I never would have done...I do because He wants me to. I have FAITH that God knows what He is doing and everything He does is for good. And I know His Grace...because I see Him touch people that I never could have or would have tried to on my own. These are the works...not to get me salvation...but to do the will of the Father! These works build my faith in His grace! I am not worthy of His grace. And I can prove nothing to the Father who is a reader of hearts!
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rnmomof7
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I think the problem here is that Mormons have a different defination of Salvation. They do not believe anyone but the devils will inhabit hell.
To them salvation is getting into the higest heaven..and you only get there by being an observant Mormon..(works)
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I am sorry you feel that I am confusing the issue. I feel I am clarifying things. Just goes to show how perspective can change everything.
If it is faith alone which saves us, why is it not listed as the greatest thing to possess, but is in fact third? Why can Paul say that a man who has faith enough to move mountains is nothing without love? It is because faith is but a part of who we are, albeit an important one. Grace is the beginning of it all, and without grace, no one would ever see Heaven. It is that grace that stirs our faith, but if we speak of faith as just our belief in Christ, then that faith will profit us nothing. As James said, "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead," but it is still faith (James 2:17). If, however, we speak of a faith which stirs us into action, then we begin to see a bigger picture. One where faith and our response to the will of God become intertwined. For the Good Thief on Calvary, had he believed in Christ, but not acknowledged Him on the Cross, would he have followed Christ into Paradise? "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven..." (Matthew 10:32). His faith spurred him into action. Most may not think of it as a "work" but it was. A work is anything you do out of faith. Works of charity by themselves are nothing, just as faith by itself is nothing. It is only the two of them, spurred on and done in grace, that lead to salvation, for as Paul says in Romans 2, and Christ in Matthew 16, "...the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." "He will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil..."
If it makes you feel any better, I have only been Catholic for two years, and I believe the same thing regarding faith, works, and grace now as I did when I was a Protestant.
Well, that we can agree on!
God bless, and may Jesus always be the light of your life,
Neal
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rnmomof7
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The bible says we are saved by faith alone, not works
Eph 2:8__ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
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_ Eph 2:9__ Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Here we see clearly that faith is a gift of God and it is that gift that saves us..nothing we do in ourselves.
The text in James needs to be carefully read..He is not saying that works have any part in our salvation..He is saying that if a man tells you he is saved and does not have any works he is lieing..faith without works id dead (not a saving faith).
It is rather like asking does the fruit give life to the tree or does the tree give life to the fruit.
In this case the fruit (works) is given life by the tree (our faith)
That is not a judgement to salvation, it is a judgment to rewards..
It is not our sin that condems us to hell , for all men are sinners everyone..It is not having the covering of the righteousness of Christ that damns a man.
Well I have not been a Catholic for 26 years. noe .and what I know about grace and salvation is not the same as the works oriented church I grew up in
Terry
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Halelujia. I'm happy someone here can reason.
According to the Bible, a combination of faith, works, and grace. You're going to need to be specific here, LL. I think the standard Christian concept of faith without works being sufficient is very messed up. The Bible contradicts it in every way, as I've already shown. You haven't addressed any of the passages I posted. Remember, you all think the Bible is the only word of God and complete in its teachings. Why are there these seeming contradictions of basic gospel doctrine?
Remember, I have more scriptural references than you do on this. I could easily refute this statement, but that's already been done.
This is exactly what straightforward said a page or so back, and we started talking about the mediary state as a result. We can bring it back up, but let's finish this first.
Do you remember the rich man who came to Jesus? He asked, "Lord, what must I DO to enter the kingdom of heaven?" Jesus said, "KEEP the commandments." The man said, "I DO that." Jesus said, "Then SELL all that thou hast and FOLLOW me." You see how these are all actions? They were talking about entering the kingdom of heaven. Then Jesus said, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle." Could it be implied by this example that works are required for salvation? I think so. The rich man obviously had faith; he was also obviously righteous. But not even that was enough. Works are important, period.
Well, I'm sorry the Bible is confusing to you. You could always become Mormon; then it wouldn't be confusing anymore!
Seriously, "essential Christian doctrine" in this respect is all fouled up. I suggest you do some reading and praying to know whether works are required or not.Maybe... Except for the fact that it doesn't say heart or spirit or anything like that; it says DEEDS. This is pretty clear in my mind.
You're right. This verse, when looked at in context, actually says both.
Now wait just one dang-old minute here. According to "essential Christian doctrine" there is only one reward, which is heaven. Therefore, this verse can only have one meaning in your eyes: salvation. Motivation isn't being discussed here. Works are necessary, no matter the reason they're done, period.
And?
Good job! You're on a roll.
The Bible is making so much more sense now, isn't it? And this is one of the things I don't like about this part of Christian doctrine. You imply that works are simply natural after accepting Christ and that one doesn't try, because if you love Christ then you do His works. Maybe. The rich man had faith and he was righteous. I also imagine he loved God. Why would it then be difficult for him to do something, as Jesus says it was? You might say that the rich man didn't really love Jesus then; maybe. We've already established that faith and works go hand-in-hand. But how would the man improve his faith? Why, it would be by doing works! James 2: 26 says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Remember, if you disagree then your disagreement is with the Bible, not me.
This is silly. I already addressed this one up, but I'll add that the scriptures were never written with this in mind. There are commandments. There wouldn't need to be commandments if every good thing was naturally done out of faith. In fact, the Bible states the exact opposite. 1 Corinthians 2: 14 says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." It is more natural to sin; it is more natural to be lazy; it is more natural to be hard-hearted. To become more Christ-like is like climbing stairs, not like getting in an elevator and pushing a button.
This has nothing to do with anything. Our works are our own. We do not do them in order to wipe ourselves clean, but so that Christ will do it for us. I still don't think you understand quite right. Maybe I should explain.
Christ, through the atonement, gave us access to the resurrection; this a free gift given to all. He also gave us access to the kingdom of heaven, but we have to actually do stuff to get there. His sacrifice pays for our sins, but we have to show Him that we are sincere. We have to do works so that He will accept our repentance. There are more reasons we must do works. Our works to not replace the atonement, but augment it, in the way that we may receive glory in the kingdom of heaven, and essentially "lay up treasures in heaven."
Close, but no cigar. Anyone else?
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Excellent post, Neal. I agree.
I agree with that. Our works do not save us by themselves; only grace can do that. Our works help us to build the faith that is necessary to accept that grace. How exactly does this contradict my beliefs? I really don't think it does.
Now I'm dying to know what you think these rewards are, because all I've ever heard from most protestants is the binary destination: either heaven or hell. I've never heard other rewards mentioned before this. Are you saying that there are different "levels" of heaven? Doesn't the concept of rewards actually contradict your own Christian beliefs? It's either heaven or hell, no in between, no lesser, no greater. Something's going on here...
I agree with that. Our works do not save us by themselves; only grace can do that. Our works help us to build the faith that is necessary to accept that grace. How exactly does this contradict my beliefs? I really don't think it does.
Now I'm dying to know what you think these rewards are, because all I've ever heard from most protestants is the binary destination: either heaven or hell. I've never heard other rewards mentioned before this. Are you saying that there are different "levels" of heaven? Doesn't the concept of rewards actually contradict your own Christian beliefs? It's either heaven or hell, no in between, no lesser, no greater. Something's going on here...
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I would disagree... "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James 2:14). I believe James makes it clear that a faith without works is a dead faith. We could argue semantics forever, but I hope we can all agree that a faith with no works to accompany it is dead, and is not a "saving faith".
I believe that the phrasing in Romans and Matthew make it clear that Paul is expanding upon the teaching of Jesus, clarifying it, if you will. Despite the fact that a man has been covered by Christ's sacrifice, it is still possible for him to reject his salvation.
I think it is possible for a man who once had a living faith, one that had as a necessary part of it action, to stop heeding the Spirit's call, and to fall from grace, thus profaning the blood of Christ which had sanctified Him. Through the rejection of Christ, through the killing of a once living faith one can "submit again to a yoke of slavery," and become "severed from Christ," thus become "fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:2-4). It is only "faith working through love" which counts for anything (Galatians 5:5).
God Bless,
Neal
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Well, thank you, sir.
I have enjoyed your posts too, well thought out as they have been. It's off to work now. Take care, and God bless.
Neal
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rnmomof7
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Jodrey If memory serves me right Catholics or Protestant are not considered saved by the LDS. Only observant Mormons that have been properly baptised and meet all the temple requirments (attendance, tithes, WOW obedience etc) are saved..How can that not be a work based salvation?1st April 2003 at 02:09 PM jodrey said this in Post #372
Excellent post, Neal. I agree.
I agree with that. Our works do not save us by themselves; only grace can do that. Our works help us to build the faith that is necessary to accept that grace. How exactly does this contradict my beliefs? I really don't think it does.
Now I'm dying to know what you think these rewards are, because all I've ever heard from most protestants is the binary destination: either heaven or hell. I've never heard other rewards mentioned before this. Are you saying that there are different "levels" of heaven? Doesn't the concept of rewards actually contradict your own Christian beliefs? It's either heaven or hell, no in between, no lesser, no greater. Something's going on here...
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rnmomof7
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Eph 2:5__ Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
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_ Rom 3:24__ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
__Mar 16:16__ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.
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_ Luk 7:50__ And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
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_ Jhn 5:24__ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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_ Act 13:39__ And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
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_ Act 15:7__ And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8__ And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9__ And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. __
_ Act 16:31__ And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
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_ Rom 3:22__ Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
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_ Rom 4:5__ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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_ Rom 10:9__ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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_ Gal 3:14__ That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
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_ 1Jo 5:10__ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
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Eph 1:19__ And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
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_ Jhn 1:12__ But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
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_ Jhn 6:37__ All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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Phl 1:6__ Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Hbr 12:2__ Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I think if you read Galations in context you will say he is saying just the opposite..we are not saved by keeping the law. Lwawkeepng does not preserve us (nor good works either)
_ Gal 5:1_{B}_ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, [/and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
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_ Gal 5:2__ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
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_ Gal 5:3__ For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
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_ Gal 5:4__ Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
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_ Gal 5:5__ For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
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_ Gal 5:6__ For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
God Bless you too neal,
[/QUOTE]
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rnmom, what was the point of copying all those scriptures? Neither myself nor Neil have said that grace and faith are not necessary. You don't seem to get what we're trying to show you. It's the three, including works, that bring a person to perfection and into the kingdom of God. There are very few scriptures that state that works are not necessary, and those need to be viewed in context and intended meaning.
The belief that members of a certain denomination are saved and not others has to do solely with baptism, not works. Anyone can do Christ-like works. Let's not try to confuse matters here, rn.
Rnmom, if we read Galatians the way you wish us to then the Bible contradicts itself. The only possibility is that it doesn't mean what you think it means. Please, explain the contradiction to us if you understand faith, works, and grace so well. You have yet to address the points I made regarding the importance of works. Instead, you ignore them and quote Bible passages that don't necessarily mean what you think they mean. "Faith without works is dead." Legitimately explain that one statement using your existing theory.
The belief that members of a certain denomination are saved and not others has to do solely with baptism, not works. Anyone can do Christ-like works. Let's not try to confuse matters here, rn.
Rnmom, if we read Galatians the way you wish us to then the Bible contradicts itself. The only possibility is that it doesn't mean what you think it means. Please, explain the contradiction to us if you understand faith, works, and grace so well. You have yet to address the points I made regarding the importance of works. Instead, you ignore them and quote Bible passages that don't necessarily mean what you think they mean. "Faith without works is dead." Legitimately explain that one statement using your existing theory.
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1st April 2003 at 02:20 PM isshinwhat said this in Post #374
Well, thank you, sir.
It's off to work now. Take care, and God bless.
Neal
Good to meet you, by the way.
Off to work for me too, but first I need to clean the ferret cage.
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Wrigley
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I had a respose all ready to go, but lost it. I'm starting to believe it the website that is causing the problem as it is the only place that the lockup has occured. Has anyone else had a similiar problem?
So, know you get the Reader's Digest version.
Faith alone saves. Works do not. Our works are a result of our faith. Our works are done to bring glory to God. That is the point of Mom posting all those great Bible passages.
What the confusion here? Your LDS teachings. If so, I agree. A lot of what the Mormon church teaches is confusing.
The way Mom presented her post is the correct way to understand the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. God's message in His Word is consistant thruout. The confusion occurs when we read what we want into the Bible.
Talk about an unreasonable standard. On what is legitimacy based? How arrogant are you?
So, know you get the Reader's Digest version.
Faith alone saves. Works do not. Our works are a result of our faith. Our works are done to bring glory to God. That is the point of Mom posting all those great Bible passages.
What the confusion here? Your LDS teachings. If so, I agree. A lot of what the Mormon church teaches is confusing.
The way Mom presented her post is the correct way to understand the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. God's message in His Word is consistant thruout. The confusion occurs when we read what we want into the Bible.
Talk about an unreasonable standard. On what is legitimacy based? How arrogant are you?
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