What is a "Liberal" Christian?

hedrick · Sep 21, 2020

Hmmm! said:
If I was going to summarise what I've learnt from this thread, I'd say this:

If you read an English translation of the Bible you really have no choice but to believe it condemns gay sex etc.

You can make a reasonable argument that the NT says nothing about modern Christian homosexual relationships. However I think this is largely irrelevant.

I believe it's accurate that the mainstream Christian tradition is uniformly against all same-sex relationships, and that the traditional reasons would apply just as much to modern relationships. Those reasons are not just Scriptural, but have to do with the overall approach to sex that developed fairly early in Christian history.

Traditional approaches to Scripture (even Protestant ones) fall back to proof-texting where there's a clear tradition on the subject. Even if Paul really wasn't talking about modern Christian gays, there's no way conservative exegesis will accept that.

Liberal approaches to Scripture, on the other hand, wouldn't accept even a clear statement by Paul, if there was reason to think that his ethical analysis was faulty, or didn't take into account what is currently known about sexual orientation.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 21, 2020

hedrick said:
Liberal approaches to Scripture, on the other hand, wouldn't accept even a clear statement by Paul, if there was reason to think that his ethical analysis was faulty, or didn't take into account what is currently known about sexual orientation.

An I guess I am liberal because this sounds reasonable to me. It takes into account so many more factors than simply "What is written" and I think it challenges us to discern like mature adults.

Hmm · Sep 21, 2020

Andrewn said:
For me, the cornerstone of my faith is Jesus, not sola scriptura. The written word can be misunderstood but the living Word is clear to all. In his life, He revealed the character of God as Love.

That's a very good point. We can get caught up in ideas, something which is easy to do because these ideas can be very beautiful. I find the combination of the simplicity and the explanatory power of Sola Scriptura quite beautiful. But we are not worshiping ideas, whoever good they are, but Jesus Himself.

Albion · Sep 21, 2020

Hmmm! said:
I find the combination of the simplicity and the explanatory power of Sola Scriptura quite beautiful. But we are not worshiping ideas, whoever good they are, but Jesus Himself.

It's not a matter of worship or who is God. But surely we cannot just say that the word of God is unimportant when it comes to everything else that pertains to our religion. You highlighted the call to love. Why not make something out of the many other admonitions that are found in scripture and that Jesus himself preached on?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sep 21, 2020

Hmmm! said:
Back to suggesting I'm not a Christian. And you were doing so well!

Your reading comprehension needs work. It's one thing to suggest that someone's not a Christian. Like I would a Mormon, Jehovah's witness or John Shelby Spong. It's quite another thing to say an individual's belief in a particular doctrine is unchristian. Protestants believe in the false idea of Sola Scriptura, but they are still Christians. You believe in the Trinity and the literal resurrection (I presume and hope so), so you're a Christian, but your position on sexual norms is in no way Christian.

Do you understand?

Hmmm! said:
What is it about an adult, consensual and loving relationship between two gay people that you don't understand? Why do you always compare it to prostitution, orgies and old men abusing boys? As I keep saying to you, you need to learn to differentiate between love and sex i.e. sex within a loving relationship is not prostitution etc even if the relationship is gay or trans.

I understand homosexuality perfectly well, which is why I am comparing it to other sexual acts forbidden by the faith. You have yet to demonstrate why I should consider homosexuality good. All you've done is say you think it's good, therefore God must have blessed it. Some Prostitutes think what they are doing is good as well, does that mean God has blessed their work? My point in bringing up other issues was to say that sexual limitations are not given to Homosexuals alone.

Hmmm! said:
I would respect your answer if you weren't accussing and condemning others of it.

All I said was that masturbation was wrong. I didn't condemn anyone here for it. Are you reading what I'm typing?

Hmmm! said:
They're not the same type of thing. Masturbation is a natural phenomena which everyone (with the possible exception of your good self) has done whereas inappropriate contentography is the product of an exploitative industry.

As an aid to masturbation inappropriate contentography is often essential. If you believe consent is the ultimate standard for what makes a sexual act legitimate, regardless of marriage, who are you to judge the inappropriate contentographer and the people who consume that content? I agree inappropriate contentography is exploitative of both the models and the consumers but there are many who are fine with it and happy with their life decisions. Why is the latter wrong? Both parties consent, both parties are doing what their nature tells them to do. Seems to me, by the standards you have used to accept homosexuality you ought to accept inappropriate contentography and prostitution. If not, tell me why.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sep 21, 2020

hedrick said:
As you surely know, there's nothing Biblical involved with masturbation. The Christian tradition in areas involving sex was insane from fairly early. The overall attitude (not speaking of specific moral questions) was so different from the Jewish one, and even Jesus, that this is an area of Christian tradition that I have no interest in. Particularly since Augustine.

One wonders if the sexual ethic of the Church was insane from such an early point, what else was insane about it. Yet the bible encourages us to be sexually pure and never speaks about sexual fulfillment as coming from oneself but in marriage. Why else would Paul say it's better to marry than to burn with passion? Why is prostitution condemned? Why is sleeping with your father's wife worthy of excommunication? Was this an insane standard?

Yet not every value we as Christians have was written in the bible. That's why I'm not a Protestant but an Orthodox Christian and while there are extremes in any tradition (you don't see many Stylites today) that's no reason to toss out the Church's teaching on this matter. I could hardly think the reformers would approve of the liberal Churches of today and their looseness when it comes to sexual liberality. Luther was embarrassed when he was called out for allowing polygamy and John Calvin had to condemn a close friend who married a girl 20 years his senior (or something along those lines). They might have disagreed with monasticism celibacy but they knew the only natural option to be after abandoning that was the sanctity of marriage.

Hmm · Sep 21, 2020

Albion said:
It's not a matter of worship or who is God. But surely we cannot just say that the word of God is unimportant when it comes to everything else that pertains to our religion. You highlighted the call to love. Why not make something out of the many other admonitions that are found in scripture and that Jesus himself preached on?

It's a good question. There are lots of other admonitions that Jesus gave so we do need to take those seriously as well. But do you think these admonitions are always clear cut? I don't necessarily mean about LBTQ+ issues that we've been talking about but on other disputed matters too. It seems to me that if equally qualified Biblical scholars disagree on certain points of the Bible then it can't reasonably be said that it is clear on those points. So what do we do? Take an issue like abortion. People obviously hold veey strong views on either side and bring to bear academics to support their case. So how does someone make their mind up on tbe issue. Intellectual argument is not going to decide it for you because you see that the argument goes both ways. So you have to make judgement. Oir judgement is true to us in that its the best we can do but it's important to acknowledge that it may not be the actual truth of what rhe Bible is saying. It may be but it may be that the other side of the argument is true in the absolute sense. We quite possibly will never know. When we make a judgement about something that can't be determined in purely rational grounds, we need to look at Jesus Himself. It's really asking "What would Jesus do?" and if you know Jesus more and more through yiur prayer life you may have a sense of what he would do just as you would often know how a good friend would behave in a certain situation. So bringing love to bear on the question if abortion, I think that love needs to be shown both to the mother and the unborn baby. I don't know where to go from there though.

Albion · Sep 21, 2020

Hmmm! said:
It's a good question. There are lots of other admonitions that Jesus gave so we do need to take those seriously as well. But do you think these admonitions are always clear cut?

No, but what I was "getting" was the idea that it's okay to pick through what the Bible teaches. While there may be more important points in it as opposed to some others and there may be difficult passages, the idea of just taking what seems key and discounting the rest seems to me to be to invite a reduction without end.

Maybe it's just me, but either the Bible is the revealed word of God or it's not. And if it is...then the whole thing counts.

I don't necessarily mean about LBTQ+ issues that we've been talking about but on other disputed matters too. It seems to me that if equally qualified Biblical scholars disagree on certain points of the Bible then it can't reasonably be said that it is clear on those points.

I agree.

So what do we do? Take an issue like abortion. People obviously hold very strong views on either side and bring to bear academics to support their case. So how does someone make their mind up on tbe issue. Intellectual argument is not going to decide it for you because you see that the argument goes both ways.

What I think is that the issue is difficult, but this isn't a case of saying that X is what I find most important, so I'm setting aside the rest.

The parts that deal with abortion, etc. do matter, but that doesn't guarantee that all readers will come to the same conclusion. That's different from what I thought I had been reading here.

So you have to make judgement. Or judgement is true to us in that its the best we can do but it's important to acknowledge that it may not be the actual truth of what rhe Bible is saying.

Okay.

So bringing love to bear on the question if abortion, I think that love needs to be shown both to the mother and the unborn baby. I don't know where to go from there though.

Well, I don't think that there is any call to be cruel to someone caught in a difficult situation, and it would be Christian to be compassionate, even if that person has made a mistake. But whether the action in question is right or wrong to do...that's really the issue.

Hmm · Sep 21, 2020

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you understand?

I understand that you think you are an arbitrator of what is Christian thought and what isn't, yes.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I understand homosexuality perfectly well

Unless you are gay, that is a very arrogant claim to make and it would not be true.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
All I said was that masturbation was wrong. I didn't condemn anyone here for it.

Sorry, confused. Are you saying that you don't condemn someone for masturbating?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
As an aid to masturbation inappropriate contentography is often essential.

And you know this how?
.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I agree inappropriate contentography is exploitative of both the models and the consumers but there are many who are fine with it and happy with their life decisions. Why is the latter wrong? Both parties consent, both parties are doing what their nature tells them to do. Seems to me, by the standards you have used to accept homosexuality you ought to accept inappropriate contentography and prostitution. If not, tell me why

Because you have contadicted yourself. You are saying that inappropriate contentography both is and is not exploitative. It is exploitative full stop even if someone voluntarily enters into it. In the same way a company that doesn't has a bullying culture is exploitative even if it's workers are there voluntarily.

You may regard homosexuality as equivalent to prostitution and inappropriate contentography but that is your view and I do not believe it is scriptural.

Hmm · Sep 21, 2020

I agree with everything you've just said.

Albion said:
No, but what I was "getting" was the idea that it's okay to pick through what the Bible teaches.

Albion said:
Maybe it's just me, but either the Bible is the revealed word of God or it's not. And if it is...then the whole thing counts.

I agree with both statements. I believe we should take everything in scripture seriously, particular admonitions and commands and the sweeping Biblical narrative of God's purpose of building His kingdom. If I gave the impression that I believe in picking and choosing whatever matches our preconceptions then I apologise.

Albion said:
Well, I don't think that there is any call to be cruel to someone caught in a difficult situation, and it would be Christian to be compassionate, even if that person has made a mistake. But whether the action in question is right or wrong to do...that's really the issue.

Again, I agree. What really matters is what is true. What God wants will always be the most loving action even if it doesn't appear so. It's obviously sometines hard to know what that is which I think is why we need to engage with others to find that out as best we can.

CaspianSails · Sep 22, 2020

So I wonder what people think of when they hear the term "liberal Christian"?[/QUOTE]

It depends. The question is are you a liberal in terms of theology or a liberal in terms of politics and social standing? They can be two very different things.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sep 22, 2020

Hmmm! said:
I understand that you think you are an arbitrator of what is Christian thought and what isn't, yes.

And you don't consider yourself a judge or arbitrator on these matters? IF not, what problem do you have with my views? If judging between positions is verboten, why are you so insistent we as Christians accept certain practices?

Hmmm! said:
Unless you are gay, that is a very arrogant claim to make and it would not be true.

I think anyone with sexual desire can understand the longing in a person, be they heterosexual or other.

Hmmm! said:
Sorry, confused. Are you saying that you don't condemn someone for masturbating?

Not personally. That's an issue between them and their confessor but if someone is going to make a moral case for it that's when I say they are wrong. There is no Christian justification for masturbation and you're fooling yourself if you think there is.

Hmmm! said:
Because you have contadicted yourself. You are saying that inappropriate contentography both is and is not exploitative. It is exploitative full stop even if someone voluntarily enters into it. In the same way a company that doesn't has a bullying culture is exploitative even if it's workers are there voluntarily.

You may regard homosexuality as equivalent to prostitution and inappropriate contentography but that is your view and I do not believe it is scriptural.

I don't see the contradiction. Exploitation is when someone doesn't consent to being used or abused in some way. For instance, women who were filmed having sex with the promise that it wouldn't be distributed online, that's exploitation. Women filmed who gave their permission for it are not being exploited, at least per secular norms. I would argue that the women are being exploited as sexual objects into selling something which should be private. That Christian chastity and modesty doesn't accept such a rationalization. Still, a lot of inappropriate contentography is done by consent, to either film it or sell it online. Why, if all party's consent, is it wrong for the consumer, the producer and the models to be part of the industry per your understanding? If you accept Christian chastity and modesty why then accept masturbation and condemn inappropriate contentography? As long as consent is given, it's acceptable right?

Classical Christian morality on this issue doesn't make consent the be all and end all. Consent is important so as to avoid rape but it is not the ultimate standard. Rather purity, obeying God's commands and submitting to them are the standard. I find it interesting that in today's progressive era some Christians argue that sex outside of marriage is totally acceptable. They even try to justify it based on the bible. One wonders why the bible forbade prostitution in that case.

Hmm · Sep 22, 2020

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
And you don't consider yourself a judge or arbitrator on these matters? IF not, what problem do you have with my views? If judging between positions is verboten, why are you so insistent we as Christians accept certain practices?

I think anyone with sexual desire can understand the longing in a person, be they heterosexual or other.

Not personally. That's an issue between them and their confessor but if someone is going to make a moral case for it that's when I say they are wrong. There is no Christian justification for masturbation and you're fooling yourself if you think there is.

I don't see the contradiction. Exploitation is when someone doesn't consent to being used or abused in some way. For instance, women who were filmed having sex with the promise that it wouldn't be distributed online, that's exploitation. Women filmed who gave their permission for it are not being exploited, at least per secular norms. I would argue that the women are being exploited as sexual objects into selling something which should be private. That Christian chastity and modesty doesn't accept such a rationalization. Still, a lot of inappropriate contentography is done by consent, to either film it or sell it online. Why, if all party's consent, is it wrong for the consumer, the producer and the models to be part of the industry per your understanding? If you accept Christian chastity and modesty why then accept masturbation and condemn inappropriate contentography? As long as consent is given, it's acceptable right?

Classical Christian morality on this issue doesn't make consent the be all and end all. Consent is important so as to avoid rape but it is not the ultimate standard. Rather purity, obeying God's commands and submitting to them are the standard. I find it interesting that in today's progressive era some Christians argue that sex outside of marriage is totally acceptable. They even try to justify it based on the bible. One wonders why the bible forbade prostitution in that case.

We're just going round in circles so let's leave it here unless there's something new to discuss.

What is a "Liberal" Christian?

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Facilitator

Dissident

Dissident

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Facilitator

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Similar threads