Protestantism has done more harm than good.

truefiction1 · Sep 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
Mary was blessed above all women at that time because she was carrying the incarnation of Christ in her womb, but that was a temporary blessing because eventually Jesus was born and Mary's mission fulfilled. There is no implication whatsoever that she was always a virgin, never sinned, or became a goddess. It's okay to respect her for being the person God chose to physically come into the world as a human without also elevating her into something she's not. If she were sinless and perfect and divine, then there would be no reason for Jesus to die on the cross because Mary could have just done that job herself, but that's not what happened and that's not who she was. She is not the "Mother of God" because God is not a created being and there was never a time when he didn't exist. Mary was the mother of the physical form that God took to complete his earthy mission.

Well God the Word "became flesh" and God the Word remains flesh forevermore, so technically she is Mother of God the Word in the flesh. In other words, God the Word is to be found in both His Divine nature and in His human nature. It is for this reason, and for the sake of protecting this vital understanding of the Incarnation and the nature of the Christ that the Church has always insisted on using the expression "mother of God". What you are expressing is the ancient "Nestorian" heresy. Mary, speaking by the Holy Spirit, said that henceforth all generations will call her blessed. And that is what we do. But the only human that we worship as God is Jesus Christ, because He is the Word of God Who became flesh. Saints are honored, and Mary is especially honored among the saints, but they are not worshipped. Worship is reserved for God alone.

AV1611VET · Sep 21, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Among women... among all women... it means the same thing, right? So what exactly is your point?

That for some reason, someone thought it important enough to put "all" in there.

If it means the same thing, why put anything in there?

truefiction1 said:
"Behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" as recorded in the Word of God.

We call her "blessed" too.

But not "above" women ... "among" women.

Again, the "above women" distinction goes to Jael, not Mary.

truefiction1 · Sep 21, 2020

I have been defending the veneration of the Mother of God and the use of that expression in a thread that is supposed to be addressing division and doctrinal chaos within the realm of Protestantism. I don't really want to do this anymore in this thread. It's not what the thread is supposed to be about. So don't be surprised if I don't reply to anymore posts about the Theotokos. Thanks.

AV1611VET · Sep 21, 2020

truefiction1 said:
I have been defending the veneration of the Mother of God and the use of that expression in a thread that is suppused to be addressing division and doctrinal chaos within the realm of Protestantism. I don't really want to do this anymore in this thread. It's not what the thread is supposed to be about. So don't be surprised if I don't reply to anymore posts about the Theotokos. Thanks.

Don't worry. Academia never surprises me anymore.

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 21, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Well God the Word "became flesh" and God the Word remains flesh forevermore, so technically she is Mother of God the Word in the flesh. In other words, God the Word is to be found in both His Divine nature and in His human nature. It is for this reason, and for the sake of protecting this vital understanding of the Incarnation and the nature of the Christ that the Church has always insisted on using the expression "mother of God". What you are expressing is the ancient "Nestorian" heresy. Mary, speaking by the Holy Spirit, said that henceforth all generations will call her blessed. And that is what we do. But the only human that we worship as God is Jesus Christ, because He is the Word of God Who became flesh. Saints are honored, and Mary is especially honored among the saints, but they are not worshipped. Worship is reserved for God alone.

Excellent post !!

truefiction1 · Sep 21, 2020

AV1611VET said:
That for some reason, someone thought it important enough to put "all" in there.

If it means the same thing, why put anything in there?We call her "blessed" too.

But not "above" women ... "among" women.

Again, the "above women" distinction goes to Jael, not Mary.

Mary showed more courage than Jael, who is blessed above women in the tent. Thus, this distinction you are entertaining, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing. One woman pierced a man's temple with a spike and killed him. The other said "be it done unto me according to your will", and endured the piercing of her heart with a sword. I shouldn't have to tell anyone why I call the mother of my Lord blessed among all women and the Mother of my God. She has become my own mother in the Lord. Jael is more like a sister to me. So be it.

Aussie Pete · Sep 21, 2020

RushMAN said:
Tell you what, tell me no show me where everything has to be in the Bible. Show me where the Bible is the authority. I can tell you you will not find it

It was your mob who chose what books to be in the canon of scripture. You got a few wrong, but that's no big deal. Lord Jesus commissioned the apostles (all of them, not just Peter) and told them to teach His word and to make disciples. Lord Jesus gave the same commission to Paul. Paul claimed to be preaching God's word. Now either he was being truthful or he was making an outlandish claim that should have disqualified him completely.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."

Matthew 10:20 "For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."

The Bible is not the sum total of what God has said or the complete record of His works. However, if anything contradicts God's word then it is false.

AV1611VET · Sep 21, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Mary showed more courage than Jael, who is blessed above women in the tent.

So what?

Are you saying Deborah was wrong?

truefiction1 said:
Thus, this distinction you are entertaining, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing.

I didn't write the Bible, TF, God wrote It.

Others add words to It ... like "all" ... which only causes confusion.

truefiction1 said:
One woman pierced a man's temple with a spike and killed him.

Yes, that woman's name was Jael.

truefiction1 said:
The other said "be it done unto me according to your will",

No, she didn't.

She actually said:

Luke 1:38a And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

truefiction1 said:
I shouldn't have to tell anyone why I call the mother of my Lord blessed among all women and the Mother of my God. She has become my own mother in the Lord. Jael is more like a sister to me. So be it.

Suit yourself.

Just don't be surprised if others think otherwise.

Dansiph · Sep 21, 2020

I wouldn't usually reiterate advice as if I'm an authority but seeing as I was quoting someone else's advice... I will say look again at my post #211. I'm realising that until the suggestion in that post is at least considered, our arguments will just be almost endless.

Aussie Pete · Sep 21, 2020

Aspzan said:
Catholics don't claim that everything is in the Bible though? A New Response to “Where is that in the Bible?”

Some of your points are though. For example, Paul did talk positively about being single in 1 Corinthians 7. Priestly garments are worn in Exodus. So you would have to argue that God changed his opinion on Priests wearing robes etc. I know there are differences between the Priests in Exodus and in the Catholic church but God did approve of special clothing to be worn by the Priests. They even wore a mitre.

Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

1 Timothy 4:3&4
...influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creation of God is good, and nothing that is received with thanksgiving should be rejected,…

Paul said that being single was a good thing, indeed. I'm single myself. However, making recommendations is not the same as enforced celibacy. Peter was married. So were the other apostles (1 Corinthians 9:5)

The OT priesthood ended with the destruction of the Temple. All believers make up the living temple and all are priests. If you really believe that the OT is relevant, then you should be appointing descendants of Aaron as priests.

bekkilyn · Sep 21, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Well God the Word "became flesh" and God the Word remains flesh forevermore, so technically she is Mother of God the Word in the flesh. In other words, God the Word is to be found in both His Divine nature and in His human nature. It is for this reason, and for the sake of protecting this vital understanding of the Incarnation and the nature of the Christ that the Church has always insisted on using the expression "mother of God". What you are expressing is the ancient "Nestorian" heresy. Mary, speaking by the Holy Spirit, said that henceforth all generations will call her blessed. And that is what we do. But the only human that we worship as God is Jesus Christ, because He is the Word of God Who became flesh. Saints are honored, and Mary is especially honored among the saints, but they are not worshipped. Worship is reserved for God alone.

Nestorian heresy claims that Jesus is two distinct persons, which is not at all what I said. What I said is that Mary birthed Jesus' physical body, a body that he no longer has actually because after his resurrection, he took on a new, glorified physical body, a body that Mary had nothing to do with. In fact, he wasn't even recognized as Jesus at first after the resurrection due to how different he appeared. Even the human Jesus wasn't the same as his physical body just as we are also not our physical bodies. Being that we are human, we have physical bodies, and they are useful to us, but they are not who we are. So Jesus was correct to rhetorically ask, "Who is my mother?" It isn't possible for God have a mother because it implies that God was created, but when he chose to be incarnated on earth, he chose a woman as a vessel and that's the moment in time that Mary was blessed, not that she was somehow elevated into a divine being, taking on qualities that belong *only* to God (such as being sinless.)

It's not that we cannot honor her or hold her in high regard for being willing and saying yes to God, but it's idolatry and also a disservice to her to make her into anything other than a human being with the same hopes, fears, imperfections, and struggle with sin that every other human being with the sole exception of Jesus (who is God) has on this earth.

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
Nestorian heresy claims that Jesus is two distinct persons, which is not at all what I said. What I said is that Mary birthed Jesus' physical body, a body that he no longer has actually because after his resurrection, he took on a new, glorified physical body, a body that Mary had nothing to do with. In fact, he wasn't even recognized as Jesus at first after the resurrection due to how different he appeared. Even the human Jesus wasn't the same as his physical body just as we are also not our physical bodies. Being that we are human, we have physical bodies, and they are useful to us, but they are not who we are. So Jesus was correct to rhetorically ask, "Who is my mother?" It isn't possible for God have a mother because it implies that God was created, but when he chose to be incarnated on earth, he chose a woman as a vessel and that's the moment in time that Mary was blessed, not that she was somehow elevated into a divine being, taking on qualities that belong *only* to God (such as being sinless.)

It's not that we honor her or hold her in high regard for being willing and saying yes to God, but it's idolatry and also a disservice to her to make her into anything other than a human being with the same hopes, fears, imperfections, and struggle with sin that every other human being with the sole exception of Jesus (who is God) has on this earth.

Your view of the Resurrection is questionable. See if you are in agreement below with these.

see here

The Resurrection of Jesus

and here

The Resurrection of Jesus

bekkilyn · Sep 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Your view of the Resurrection is questionable. See if you are in agreement below with these.

see here

The Resurrection of Jesus

and here

The Resurrection of Jesus

I don't think you really read what I said. Jesus did very much have a flesh and blood physical body after resurrection, but it was a glorified physical body. Mary was a vessel for birthing the human body that Jesus had on earth, but she didn't create God. God (who includes the Son) existed long before she was ever conceived and in fact (God) had no beginning. He just always was.

GenemZ · Sep 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Your view of the Resurrection is questionable. See if you are in agreement below with these.

see here

The Resurrection of Jesus

and here

The Resurrection of Jesus

Careful! He so happens to be right.

The Lord's body now is no longer of the elements of this earth. Elements doomed to perish, and will be utterly destroyed in fire. This earth is to perish and explode into fire. Its not everlasting. His everlasting body is now of our home. Heaven.

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven."
1 Cor 15:47

Jesus is now the God/Man of heaven! And, we will have a body just like his glorious body!

Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have
another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies
and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is
one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another." 1 Cor 15:39-40

Our home is no longer of the dust of this earth! Our new home will provide a new body substance accordingly to the elements of our new home!

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ." Phlpns 3:20

Our bodies will be of Heaven! No longer of the dust of the earth!

Jesus was ascended to become glorified!

His body is no longer as the body He needed to have on earth to die for man who is of the dust of this earth.

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 21, 2020

genez said:
Careful! He so happens to be right.

The Lord's body now is no longer of the elements of this earth. Elements doomed to perish, and will be utterly destroyed in fire. This earth is to perish and explode into fire. Its not everlasting. His everlasting body is now of our home. Heaven.

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven."
1 Cor 15:47

Jesus is now the God/Man of heaven! And, we will have a body just like his glorious body!

Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have
another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies
and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is
one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another." 1 Cor 15:39-40

Our home is no longer of the dust of this earth! Our new home will provide a new body substance accordingly to the elements of our new home!

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ." Phlpns 3:20

Our bodies will be of Heaven! No longer of the dust of the earth!

Jesus was ascended to become glorified!

His body is no longer as the body He needed to have on earth to die for man who is of the dust of this earth.

and those BODIES are physical not immaterial in the passage of 1 Corinthians 15

and Jesus said His resurrected body is flesh and bones with the crucifixion scars to prove it was Him in His hands, feet and side.

hope this helps !!!

GenemZ · Sep 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
and those BODIES are physical not immaterial in the passage of 1 Corinthians 15

and Jesus said His resurrected body is flesh and bones with the crucifixion scars to prove it was Him in His hands, feet and side.

hope this helps !!!

Who said anything about immaterial? Did I miss something?

When Jesus was first resurrected his body was not yet glorified. It was like a body Adam would have had if he had never eaten from the wrong tree. Glorification came after He ascended and was crowned and seated above.

His body was transformed. Likewise, so shall our bodies be.

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 21, 2020

genez said:
Who said anything about immaterial? Did I miss something?

When Jesus was first resurrected his body was not yet glorified. It was like a body Adam would have had if he had never eaten from the wrong tree. Glorification came after He ascended and was crowned and seated above.

His body was transformed. Likewise, so shall our bodies be.

That is the disconnect.

Elaborate from scripture on the glorification of His body post Resurrection as if that did not happen after the 3rd day( His Resurrection) from the dead.

Actually if you wouldn't mind lets take this conversation over to the Resurrection thread, thanks !

Junia · Sep 21, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Yes, all the Bibles are correct. I'm guessing you've never compared them?
See if you can find a specific Bible version that promotes your choice of social complaints. I call them Pet Peeves. So your peevs are gays and abortion. People with little experience on gays and abortion have very strong opinions. But they turn a blind eye to gays and abortions inside their own family. Or the kids they grew up with who were "a little different" from that gang.

Go look up all your childhood friends on Facebook. You'll see a good number of your best pals living non-binary lives and you knew they were different as children.

New International Version
"'Do not go about spreading slander among your people. "'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD.

New Living Translation
“Do not spread slanderous gossip among your people. “Do not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is threatened. I am the LORD.

English Standard Version
You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.

Berean Study Bible
You must not go about spreading slander among your people. You must not endanger the life of your neighbor. I am the LORD.

New American Standard Bible
'You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the LORD.

New King James Version
You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.

King James Bible
Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

Christian Standard Bible
Do not go about spreading slander among your people; do not jeopardize your neighbor's life; I am the LORD.

Contemporary English Version
Don't be a gossip, but never hesitate to speak up in court, especially if your testimony can save someone's life.

Good News Translation
Do not spread lies about anyone, and when someone is on trial for his life, speak out if your testimony can help him. I am the LORD.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You must not go about spreading slander among your people; you must not jeopardize your neighbor's life; I am Yahweh."

International Standard Version
"You are not to go around slandering your people. "You are not to stand idle when your neighbor's life is at stake. I am the LORD.

NET Bible
You must not go about as a slanderer among your people. You must not stand idly by when your neighbor's life is at stake. I am the LORD.

New Heart English Bible
"'You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your people; neither shall you stand against the life of your neighbor. I am the LORD.

A Faithful Version
You shall not go as a slanderer among your people; you shall not stand idly by the blood of your neighbor. I am the LORD.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Never gossip. Never endanger your neighbor's life. I am the LORD.

Bible hub

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What has homosexuality.and abortion got to do with anything? don't both Catholic and protestant share the same views on these topics then??

SeventyOne · Sep 21, 2020

Inkfingers said:
Essentially I'm wondering if hundreds of denominations, with dozens of versions of the Bible, has resulted in confusion and (in response) apostacy; whether into heretical denominations or fully out of any semblance of the Church whatsoever.

People keep telling me that scripture is protected but it cannot be protected when there are literally dozens of different versions of the Bible. Of course, they claim that their favourite one is the special version, but heck they can't all be right can they...

So I'm calling out Protestantism as doing more harm than good because it makes a chaos and confusion of matters that shatters the Church and drives people away.

What say you all?

Protestantism is the result of the confusion, both planned and unplanned, after the rejection of an apostate one-church system. It only exists because that apostate system also exists. If you're planning to be mad at something, be mad at the root cause.

RushMAN · Sep 21, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
It was your mob who chose what books to be in the canon of scripture. You got a few wrong, but that's no big deal. Lord Jesus commissioned the apostles (all of them, not just Peter) and told them to teach His word and to make disciples. Lord Jesus gave the same commission to Paul. Paul claimed to be preaching God's word. Now either he was being truthful or he was making an outlandish claim that should have disqualified him completely.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."

Matthew 10:20 "For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."

The Bible is not the sum total of what God has said or the complete record of His works. However, if anything contradicts God's word then it is false.

You have shown anything It's your mob that walked away from God (John 6:50-66) not Traditional Christianity. You have not shown that the Bible is the be everything. Man's fatal flaw was o throw the Church away and do his own thing getting a book to justify everything he wanted.

Protestantism has done more harm than good.

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