Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Daniel records that the resurrection of the just and unjust occurs around the time of great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jesus associates the great tribulation with the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Did the judgment of the dead occur during 70 AD?

Have the times of the Gentiles already come to fullness in the passages below?

==========================================


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon;

Yes, I've heard this too (in some video I saw); I don't know if it's actually true (Josephus did fudge some things.) It could be; I'm not aware of any prophecy that would conclude it as true. I don't think there were any specifics given in the timeline of the destruction of Jerusalem; other than it would happen in the generation of the apostles. All the other reference that are given of X number of days; can be linked to either the birth of Christ or 3.5 year between John the Baptist and Pentecost.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So what did Jesus mean then when he told the thief "Today, you will be with me in paradise"?

I believe it means the same as this:

John 6:40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 3:16 Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Then who are the 10 kings who have not received their kingdom after what ever point Revelation was written?

Scripture doesn't interpret who their identities are, so any specific identity I would argue would only be personal interpretation. So I don't know who they specifically are. All I know is that they are involved in the destruction of the harlot, which is in regards to the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem.

What was the point of Pentecost?

Pouring out of the Spirit on the first fruits as a guarantee of the future resurrection. It established the kingdom which is like a net gathering the good and bad. It established the kingdom that was like a mustard seed and was to grow into the largest of plants.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
And you Correct, they ask 2 questions in response to this.

Yet you neglect to address that at the end of this interaction; Jesus talks about the destruction of the cosmos.

I'm not a greek scholar, so I typically rely on other sources.

Thayer's greek lexicon includes matthew 24:22 in regards to being saved from injury or peril.

LOL - well the fact that "no flesh was saved" at the point the Romans sacked Jerusalem proves that the great tribulation could not have been connected to the destruction of the city.

The great tribulation was in regards to the days of vengeance

This verse you quote speaks of all things (having been written) concerning "the days of vengeance" that He's speaking of related to Judaism and Jerusalem as it stands to have any relevance to God's salvation plan; have been fulfilled.

Unless you believe there is no recreation of the cosmos; this can not mean that everything the Scripture speaks of has been fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Did the judgment of the dead occur during 70 AD?

==========================================


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


.

I agree with just about all of this except for the times of the gentiles.

The times of Gentiles trampling Jerusalem is not a 2,000 year period following the destruction of Jerusalem, as matthew states "immediately after the tribulation of THOSe DAYS".


Luke 21:24-25 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. https://biblehub.com/bsb/mark/13.htm#24
There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,

Additionally, I disagree the "times of the gentiles" is equal to the "fullness of the gentiles"

I would argue the "times of the gentiles" is that of the gentiles kingdoms trampling old covenant jerusalem (babylon, persia, greece, rome).

Luke 21:24 And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled

Revelation 11:2 Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

While the fullness of the gentiles is in regards to promises made to ephraim.

The offspring of ephraim were promised that they would become a fullness of gentiles.

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused. “I know, my son, I know!” he said. “He too shall become a people, and he too shall be great; nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a fullness of gentiles.”

However, when the northern kingdom rebelled, they were divorced and scattered from the old covenant and made as the gentiles.

Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,d for you are not My people, and I am not your God.e

Jeremiah 3:8 She sawa that because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away. Yet that unfaithful sister Judah had no fear and prostituted herself as well.

However, God promised that one day they would again be his people, under 1 head.

Hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’f Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

Ezekiel 37:20-22 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand and in full view of the people, 21you are to tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone, and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them. Then they will no longer be two nations and will never again be divided into two kingdoms.

Paul and Peter have this fulfilled with the inclusions of the gentiles with the Jews under Christ.

Romans 9: 23-25
hat if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”i

1 Peter 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy


Therefore I believe the fullness of the gentiles is in relation to God's promise that he would bring back the northern descendants (ephraim) by including the gentiles into the new covenant with the Jews, and so all Israel is saved.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I believe it means the same as this:

John 6:40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 3:16 Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Except that is not what Jesus says to the thief. You have a disconnect here. Unless you believe no one is in heaven right now?

Scripture doesn't interpret who their identities are, so any specific identity I would argue would only be personal interpretation. So I don't know who they specifically are. All I know is that they are involved in the destruction of the harlot, which is in regards to the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem.

So basically your admitting that you don't know what that means; but you are sure that we have to be wrong; because you are convinced that this has something to do with the destruction of Jerusalem; despite the fact that you can't prove that and even though it seems now you admit we aren't in the new heavens and the new earth.

Pouring out of the Spirit on the first fruits as a guarantee of the future resurrection. It established the kingdom which is like a net gathering the good and bad. It established the kingdom that was like a mustard seed and was to grow into the largest of plants.

So pouring out the Holy Spirit was the establishment of the beginning of the Kingdom.

Gee that sounds exactly like what I've been saying.

Pentecost was the point that the proclamation of the gospel passed from Old Testament Israel to the New Testament church. The culmination of that reality came at the destruction of Jerusalem. Jerusalem wasn't destroyed at Pentecost because there were people in that system that God was going to bring out of that system. This took place over the next 40 years. (40 years in the wilderness). Except in the days of Moses the nation was preserved in order to bring about the incarnation. This time that didn't happen. They were cut off. That was it. That was the end. Judaism and Jews have no collective bearing on God's redemption plan at this point. Individual "Jews" will become saved; but God has no plan for Israel any more than He'd have a separate redemption plan for Russia, Japan, India the US or any other nation.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yet you neglect to address that at the end of this interaction; Jesus talks about the destruction of the cosmos.

And Jesus said this would all occur during the generation of those that lived in His lifetime.

Matthew 24:34-35 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Jesus also stated until heaven and earth pass away, nothing from the law would disappear.

Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I connect the passing away of the heavens and earth with destruction of Jerusalem and the old covenant system (temple).

1 corinthians 7:30-31 hose who weep, as if they did not; those who are joyful, as if they were not; those who make a purchase, as if they had nothing; 31and those who use the things of this world, as if not dependent on them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


It is the book of the law that stood as a witness against Israel and is even compared to heaven and earth:

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you are already rebelling against the LORD while I am still alive, how much more will you rebel after my death! 28Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officers so that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.


Hebrews 12:26-27 At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.”j The words “Once more” signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.

I agree with Barnes Commentary in regards to shaking of heaven and earth:
"And this word, Yet once more - That is, this reference to a great agitation or commotion in some future time. This is designed as an explanation of the prophecy in Haggai, and the idea is, that there would be such agitations that everything which was not fixed on a permanent and immovable basis would be thrown down as in an earthquake. Everything which was temporary in human institutions; everything which was wrong in customs and morals; and everything in the ancient system of religion, which was merely of a preparatory and typical character, would be removed. What was of permanent value would be retained, and a kingdom would be established which nothing could move. The effect of the gospel would be to overturn everything which was of a temporary character in the previous system, and everything in morals which was not founded on a solid basis, and to set up in the place of it principles which no revolution and no time could change. The coming of the Saviour, and the influence of his religion on mankind, had this effect in such respects as the following:

(1) All that was of a sound and permanent nature in the Jewish economy was retained; all that was typical and temporary was removed. The whole mass of sacrifices and ceremonies that were designed to prefigure the Messiah of course then ceased; all that was of permanent value in the Law of God, and in the principles of religion, was incorporated in the new system, and perpetuated."



LOL - well the fact that "no flesh was saved" at the point the Romans sacked Jerusalem proves that the great tribulation could not have been connected to the destruction of the city.

Again, thayers connects it to physical harm, not salvation. If the days of Jerusalems destruction had not been shortened all would have killed or slaughtered within.

Unless you believe there is no recreation of the cosmos; this can not mean that everything the Scripture speaks of has been fulfilled.

I don't believe God makes all new things. I believe he makes all things new.

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

This verse you quote speaks of all things (having been written) concerning "the days of vengeance" that He's speaking of related to Judaism and Jerusalem as it stands to have any relevance to God's salvation plan; have been fulfilled.

Salvation was dealt with at the cross. vengeance was dealt with at the destruction of Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Except that is not what Jesus says to the thief. You have a disconnect here. Unless you believe no one is in heaven right now?

Obviously Jesus did not say to thief " I will raise you on the last day". You asked me what I believed "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise". So I provided verses.

I believe being with the Lord in paradise means to raised on the last day.

I do believe that whose who die in the Lord go home to be with him in paradise. I believe this began after the destruction of Jerusalem.


So basically your admitting that you don't know what that means; but you are sure that we have to be wrong; because you are convinced that this has something to do with the destruction of Jerusalem; despite the fact that you can't prove that and even though it seems now you admit we aren't in the new heavens and the new earth.

I don't attribute the 10 horns to any specific identity like 10 Providences or 10 caesars, as such would be personal interpretation as the Bible does not provide specific identities of the 10 horns.

However, scripture does state the 10 horns and the beast are responsible for the destruction of the harlot, and the harlot is responsible for all the righteous blood shed, and Jesus charges 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous bloodshed in matthew 23.

Therefore it can be evidenced that the harlot of revelation 17-19 is 1st century Jerusalem.

Who did God use to destroy 1st century Jerusalem? That will identify the beast and 10 horns in part.

So pouring out the Holy Spirit was the establishment of the beginning of the Kingdom.

Christ ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and pouring out of the spirit are all the establishment of the kingdom.

Gee that sounds exactly like what I've been saying.

I'm glad we can find some agreement. No need to be snarky about it though.

Pentecost was the point that the proclamation of the gospel passed from Old Testament Israel to the New Testament church. The culmination of that reality came at the destruction of Jerusalem. Jerusalem wasn't destroyed at Pentecost because there were people in that system that God was going to bring out of that system. This took place over the next 40 years. (40 years in the wilderness). Except in the days of Moses the nation was preserved in order to bring about the incarnation. This time that didn't happen. They were cut off. That was it. That was the end. Judaism and Jews have no collective bearing on God's redemption plan at this point. Individual "Jews" will become saved; but God has no plan for Israel any more than He'd have a separate redemption plan for Russia, Japan, India the US or any other nation.

Absolutely agree.

Except for Israel being preserved in the wilderness. They wandered for 40 years between the establishment of the old covenant so that the rebellious generation would be destroyed and would not enter the promise land.

This mirrors the 40 years following the establishment of the new covenant.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The return would be after 5990 years of Adam's punishment. The Gentiles are Adam's descendants. God is still gathering Adam's descendants via the work of the Holy Spirit. This is about to change, because the end started last October. We are living in the book of Revelation now. John is recording today's events as a living witness.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And Jesus said this would all occur during the generation of those that lived in His lifetime.

Matthew 24:34-35 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
Unfortunately, Jesus did not say that the generation of those who were living during his lifetime would see all of that.

He said that "this generation" would experience it. That may well refer to the one he was speaking to, but it has often been suggested that "this" could refer to another that he had in mind.

Just something to consider.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


Are you saying part of the Israelites are no longer hardened to the Gospel?


.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Unfortunately, Jesus did not say that the generation of those who were living during his lifetime would see all of that.

He said that "this generation" would experience it. That may well refer to the one he was speaking to, but it has often been suggested that "this" could refer to another that he had in mind.

Just something to consider.

The context starts with Jesus' statement of the temple destruction

Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:6 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

The disciples post 2 questions in response to Jesus.

Mark 13:4 “Tell us, 1. when will these things be, 2. and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, “1. Teacher, when will these things be, 2. and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, 1. when will these things be, 2. and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

1.) When will these things be? = when will the temple be destroyed?

2.) What will be he sign that these things (temple destruction) are about to take place = what will be the sign of your coming and end of the age?

Was the temple destroyed in the generation of Jesus' disciples? Yes. Therefore, the following verse must be in regards to those living in Jesus' day.

Matthew 24:34-35 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Did wars and rumors of wars happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
Did earthquakes, plagues, and famines happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
Did persecution of Christians happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
Did false prophets and false messiahs arise during Jesus' generation? Yes
Did many fall away from the faith and lawlessness increase during Jesus' generation? Yes
Was Jerusalem surround by armies and leveled to the Ground during Jesus' generation? Yes
Was the temple destroyed during Jesus' generation? Yes

Therefore ,based on the overwhelming evidence, yes, all of these things in the olivet discourse did occur in the generation of Jesus' disciples.




 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I was simply pointing out that (1) the verse doesn't say what you had it say, and (2) many people have contended that there is another way to interpret it.

1.) When will these things be? = when will the temple be destroyed?
There have been more than one temple and there could be another to come.

.
Did wars and rumors of wars happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
As in the case of most generations.

Did earthquakes, plagues, and famines happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
Ditto.

Did persecution of Christians happen during Jesus' generation? Yes
Ditto.

Did false prophets and false messiahs arise during Jesus' generation? Yes
Ditto.

Did many fall away from the faith and lawlessness increase during Jesus' generation? Yes
Actually, this is not true of that time period.

Was Jerusalem surround by armies and leveled to the Ground during Jesus' generation? Yes
The only thing there that doesn't apply to the present day is that the city is yet to be levelled.

Was the temple destroyed during Jesus' generation? Yes
Yes. That one.

Therefore ,based on the overwhelming evidence, yes, all of these things in the olivet discourse did occur in the generation of Jesus' disciples.

Almost all of them apply very well to our own times, too. AND, some signs that you did not include are more applicable to our times than to those. That the Gospel will be preached to the whole world, for instance.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying part of the Israelites are no longer hardened to the Gospel?


.

I'm saying that those Jews, whom God hardened for the purpose of the gospel going to the world in the 1st century, who never returned, were in fact destroyed and no longer exist.

Part of Israel was hardened for the purpose of gospel and salvation going to the world, so as that some of Israel might become jealous and return to the Lord.

Romans 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Romans 10:19
But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

Paul was one of the elect, whom God foreknew, who was hardened, but returned to the Lord

Romans 11:1-2 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

However, it is only a foreknown remnant of natural Israel that would be saved, while the rest who remained hardened were destroyed

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Romans 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,

All Israel is saved by God including the gentiles (of whom some descended from the divorced northern kingdom) with the remnant, elect, and foreknown Jews.


 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was simply pointing out that (1) the verse doesn't say what you had it say, and (2) many people have contended that there is another way to interpret it.

And I disagree with your assertion. Jesus clearly stated "this generation" will not pass away until all these things take place. He did not say "that" generation or "another" generation. He said "this".

There have been more than one temple and there could be another to come.

There has not been another temple in jerusalem since 66-70ad. An attempt was made during Julian the apostates reign around 363ad, but it was supernaturally thwarted. Several historians from pagans and christians report on it:

Did God Prevent the Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple? — Joshua Charles


And Jesus was talking about the one standing in front of them, so no other temple would fit.


Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:6 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

As in the case of most generations.




Agreed.

Actually, this is not true of that time period.

I disagree.

John clearly states it was the "last hour". And they knew it was the last hour because the antichrists have come. "they went out from us". This is clearly the falling away.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

The man of sin was presently being restrained in the 1st century and the mystery of lawlessness was already at work prior to the destruction of the temple

2 thessalonians 2:6-7 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

Therefore from scripture, we can see that the lawneless and the falling away by the spirit of the antichrist was already happening prior to the destruction of the temple.

The only thing there that doesn't apply to the present day is that the city is yet to be levelled.

Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus

Of the War Book VI chapter 10

"
That whereas the city of Jerusalem had been five times taken formerly, this was the second time of its desolation. A brief account of its history.

1. And thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul] [A.D. 70]. It had been taken five (28) times before: though this was the second time of its desolation. For Shishak,19 the King of Egypt; and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city; but still preserved it. But before all these, the King of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate: one thousand, four hundred, sixty eight years, and six months, after it was built. But he who first built it (29) was a potent man among the Canaanites: and is in our20 own tongue called [Melchisedek], The righteous King. For such he really was. On which account he was [there] the first priest of God; and first built a temple [there]; and called the city Jerusalem: which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the King of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and settled his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred, seventy seven years, and six months after him. And from King David, who was the first of the Jews21 who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand, one hundred, and seventy nine years. But from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand, one hundred, seventy seven years. Yet hath not its great antiquity; nor its vast riches; nor the diffusion of its nation22 over all the habitable earth; nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem. (30)"

The entire city was demolished except for 3 towers. Of the War Book VII chapter 1

"How the entire city of Jerusalem was demolished, excepting three towers. And how Titus commended his soldiers in a speech made to them; and distributed rewards to them; and then dismissed many of them."

Yes. That one.

Agreed. the one standing in front of the disciples to which Jesus pointed out. Not any other one.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:6 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Almost all of them apply very well to our own times, too. AND, some signs that you did not include are more applicable to our times than to those. That the Gospel will be preached to the whole world, for instance.

Except for the main sign, which was the destruction of the temple that disciples saw. We will never see that temple the was leveled in 66-70ad, nor will any other generation besides the one that stood in front of Jesus when addressed them in the olivet discourse.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That the Gospel will be preached to the whole world, for instance.

Per Paul, the gospel was already preached to the whole world.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 10:18
But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

Romans 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—

colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,

Therefore I believe Jesus' sign in the olivet discourse was already fulfilled in the 1st century based on Paul's Holy Spirit inspired words. This was a sign for the 1st century generation leading up to the destruction of the temple in 66-70ad.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ohn Lear, who invented the Lear Jet, said he could not have performed the flight maneuvers which occurred on the day of 9-11-01.

John lear is also a conspiracy theorist who believes the goverment is working with aliens for alien technology. So understand that I would take his opinion with a grain of salt

What do you know about Dov Zekheim?
He was Comptroller of the Pentagon on 9-11-01, and was part of a corporation which developed a system for remote control of aircraft.

So you believe or don't believe that planes crashed into the twin towers?

All commercial jets have a so-called "black box", which is actually orange, and is used to record flight data.

Where are the flight data recorders from these aircraft?

I don't believe they were found. probably somewhere crushed in the rubble.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you believe or don't believe that planes crashed into the twin towers?

Jet aircraft most certainly crashed into WTC1, and WTC2 on 9-11-01, exactly ten years after George Bush Sr.s New World Order speech on 9-11-91.


The first plane crashed before George Bush Jr. went into the classroom to hear children read a story about a goat.
During the story one of Bush's aids whispered into his ear that the second tower had been struck by a plane, revealing that our nation was under attack.
And what was the president's reaction to this devastating news?
He continued to sit there listening to a story about a goat for at least seven minutes.

Why was the president not immediately rushed to safety by the Secret Service?
How did they know another jet was not bearing down on the president's location?

Why did NORAD allow the aircraft to be used as weapons, instead of intercepting them with fighter aircraft? Is our air defense system that bad?

Why was no person fired for the events that occurred that day?

Why have some of the family members of the victims called for a new investigation?

Why have over 2,000 professional architects and engineers said Building 7 did not collapse due to fire?
Are they all "Conspiracy Theorists"?


Why did the Secretary of Transportation give a different account of the timeline of events that morning?



.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Jul 4, 2020
151
79
Chicago
✟12,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Easy answer, we will find out soon enough. If it relates to worshipping the beast and it is connected with something that goes on your right hand or forehead, then yes. If not, then it is not the mark of the beast, but perhaps a forerunner. Either way, they will have to have me in restraints in order to take that vaccine. I do not consent!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I connect the passing away of the heavens and earth with destruction of Jerusalem and the old covenant system (temple).

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

The destruction of Jerusalem did not come as a thief in the night. Jesus specifically said "When you see armies surrounding Jerusalem know it's destruction is near." That is not an event that occurred without a forewarning.

The heavens did not pass away with a great noise and the elements of the cosmos did not melt with fervent heat when Jerusalem was destroyed. All things weren't dissolved in the destruction of Jerusalem either. The destruction of Jerusalem was simply God using one nation of sinners to pass judgement upon another.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Death still reigns on this current earth. We are not immortal. So therefore your interpretation of the passing away of heavens and earth can not be related to the destruction of Jerusalem.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+3&version=KJV
Again, thayers connects it to physical harm, not salvation. If the days of Jerusalems destruction had not been shortened all would have killed or slaughtered within.

LOL - All were killed and slaughtered with in! The only people left alive at the end of the siege were part of, or somehow otherwise connected to the Roman army.

Primary Sources - Josephus Describes The Romans' Sack Of Jerusalem | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

I don't believe God makes all new things. I believe he makes all things new.

So you deny the final resurrection? Are you also a Docetae?

I believe being with the Lord in paradise means to raised on the last day.

You are aware that if you don't believe in the physical resurrection from the dead; you are a heretic according to Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:


17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

I do believe that whose who die in the Lord go home to be with him in paradise. I believe this began after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Yet Scripture declares that there are those who were physically raised after Jesus rose. Which was long before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matter of fact; there is arguable evidence that Moses and Elisha had actually been physically raised prior to Christ's death. They appear on the Mount of Transfiguration in a form recognized by the apostles wherein Peter asks Jesus if they should build shelters for everyone. There'd be no question of should we build shelters for those who appear in spirit form only.

Who did God use to destroy 1st century Jerusalem? That will identify the beast and 10 horns in part.

Yet that question has never been answered in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century.

Christ ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and pouring out of the spirit are all the establishment of the kingdom.

So am I correct in my assessment that you do not believe in a final resurrection and recreation of the cosmos?
 
Upvote 0