Protestantism has done more harm than good.

SkyWriting

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We weren't discussing what you or I would or would not do but what the Christians way back when a lot of paganism was supposedly adopted by church and if that is true why no faithful believers objected.
No, you asked for my current opinion on how other people should respond. I'm sorry you don't like how I answer your questions.

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Der Alte said:
So you are of the opinion that if anyone tried to introduce anything pagan into the church faithful Christians should not protest?
 
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Dansiph

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I just read that Elizabeth I who was a Protestant tortured and executed the same amount of Catholics as Queen Mary did Protestants.
Also the last Catholic archbishop of Canterbury during Mary's reign is said to have wanted a more lenient approach to the Protestants. His name was Reginald Pole. So it's possible the actual Catholic heirarchy in England was not as responsible for the executions as the English monarchy.

"Pole was in failing health during the worst period of persecution, and there is some evidence that he favoured a more lenient approach: "Three condemned heretics from Bonner's diocese were pardoned on an appeal to him; he merely enjoined a penance and gave them absolution."

This is a slight tangent but if you look into the betrayal of the Knights Templar by the French Monarchy it shows there seemed to be strife, corruption and threats by monarchies towards Catholic institutions. Essentially The King of France was in debt to the Templars and after making serious allegations against them forced the leadership to confess to these allegations by torture and then burned them at the stake...

Here's the last leader of the Templars: Jacques de Molay - Wikipedia
 
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GenemZ

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The actions of the Catholic church which made Protestantism even necessary was what did more harm than good.

Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to justify burning people at the stake.
The Catholic church got far away from Biblical Christianity. It was a new invention designed to keep believers from knowing truth that would make them free from the Devil's lies, while telling believers that they had the truth.

The RCC boasts that they were a direct link and continuation from the Apostle Peter. Yet, Peter himself said that after he was gone that corruption would jump in.


But there were also false prophets among the people,
just as there will be false teachers among you. They
will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even
denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--
bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Pet 2:1​


Note! " just as there will be false teachers among you."

That means it was to begin with the same congregations Peter was writing to.

For Satan could hardly wait until the Apostle was gone to begin distorting and obfuscating the reasons and purpose for the Church. Yet, the RCC brags that they were a direct link to Peter.

Not to mention? Peter was the apostle sent to the Jews. It was Paul who was sent to the Gentiles. The RCC is a Gentile church.


On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted
with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,
just as Peter had been to the circumcised. For God, who
was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at

work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed
that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised."
Gal 2:7-9

Do we see a Pope Goldberg? A Pope Horowitz? Any Jewish pope? Peter was not the first pope to the Catholic church! Peter was sent to Jews. The RCC blew it again and boloxed what the Word of God tells us and teaches. As long as they knew they could keep the Scriptures away from believers they could continue to get away with it...

We need to face this reality. Catholics think we are picking on them. They have been denied truth.
 
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Der Alte

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In English which is a translation. Have you read it in the original language? Do you understand that the original language does not equal the English language and that the term does not mean brother or sister as the English word does and the word is better put as kin not blood relation. The Bible is not easy to understand with so many translation erroneous choices.
I think you have been misled the word translated "brothers" is adelphos. The primary meaning is "brother." Here is part of the definitions form Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. One of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons available. The entire definition is too long to post.
ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ (Hom. [ἀδελφεός]+; accord. to B-D-F §13; Schwyzer I 555; Mlt-H. II 58; PKatz, TLZ 83, ’58, 315f vocative ἄδελφε should be accented on the antepenult in Ac 9:17; 21:20 contrary to the practice of the editions; also GPt 2:5.)
① a male from the same womb as the reference pers., brother
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 18). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
 
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AV1611VET

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There, Elizabeth, speaking by the Holy Spirit, calls Mary "blessed among all women".
Your misquote aside, here is what Elizabeth said:

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

She did NOT say, as Deborah said of Jael ...

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
 
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bekkilyn

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Mary was blessed above all women at that time because she was carrying the incarnation of Christ in her womb, but that was a temporary blessing because eventually Jesus was born and Mary's mission fulfilled. There is no implication whatsoever that she was always a virgin, never sinned, or became a goddess. It's okay to respect her for being the person God chose to physically come into the world as a human without also elevating her into something she's not. If she were sinless and perfect and divine, then there would be no reason for Jesus to die on the cross because Mary could have just done that job herself, but that's not what happened and that's not who she was. She is not the "Mother of God" because God is not a created being and there was never a time when he didn't exist. Mary was the mother of the physical form that God took to complete his earthy mission.
 
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Der Alte

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No, you asked for my current opinion on how other people should respond. I'm sorry you don't like how I answer your questions.
Here is your post I was responding to.
Protesting is not a Christian response. So no, you won't see any.
This post sure seems to show you offering an opinion of how other people should respond.
 
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Aussie Pete

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In English which is a translation. Have you read it in the original language? Do you understand that the original language does not equal the English language and that the term does not mean brother or sister as the English word does and the word is better put as kin not blood relation. The Bible is not easy to understand with so many translation erroneous choices.
No, I have not. I've read a great deal by scholars who do know Greek and Hebrew. I know the Roman interpretation. Obviously a great many protestant theologians disagree. Your Bible was in Latin for a very long time. As a translation, the Vulgate was far from the best. And since when does Rome require something to be biblical? They just make it up as they go along.
 
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GenemZ

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You mean protestants make it up as they go along. The Traditional Churches do not, the ones that hate the Traditional Churches do.
OK that's the way its going to be..... No need for correction. The infallible church has spoken.
 
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Aussie Pete

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You mean protestants make it up as they go along. The Traditional Churches do not, the ones that hate the Traditional Churches do.
Papal infallibility? Not in the Bible.
Celibate priesthood? Forbidden in the Bible
The obsession with Mary? I think that's been covered
Praying to saints? Not in the Bible
Restricting reading the Bible to the clergy? Against Bible principles. Yeah, I know that's changed
Priestly robes? Where does that come from?

The Roman Catholic organisation is worldly. God's Kingdom is not of this world. I refuse to call Rome the church. It's not. It's a religious organisation that bears only a passing resemblance to the real church. And it is structurally impossible to change it.
 
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Der Alte

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You mean protestants make it up as they go along. The Traditional Churches do not, the ones that hate the Traditional Churches do.
I can't speak for all protestants but I don't and never have relied on what a teacher or pastor says. I also do not rely on Bible versions. I started learning to speak Greek about 7 years before I became a Christian working with and supervising Greek workers in Germany and I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades later.
 
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Dansiph

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Papal infallibility? Not in the Bible.
Celibate priesthood? Forbidden in the Bible
The obsession with Mary? I think that's been covered
Praying to saints? Not in the Bible
Restricting reading the Bible to the clergy? Against Bible principles. Yeah, I know that's changed
Priestly robes? Where does that come from?

The Roman Catholic organisation is worldly. God's Kingdom is not of this world. I refuse to call Rome the church. It's not. It's a religious organisation that bears only a passing resemblance to the real church. And it is structurally impossible to change it.
Catholics don't claim that everything is in the Bible though? A New Response to “Where is that in the Bible?”

Some of your points are though. For example, Paul did talk positively about being single in 1 Corinthians 7. Priestly garments are worn in Exodus. So you would have to argue that God changed his opinion on Priests wearing robes etc. I know there are differences between the Priests in Exodus and in the Catholic church but God did approve of special clothing to be worn by the Priests. They even wore a mitre.

Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
 
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RushMAN

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Papal infallibility? Not in the Bible.
Celibate priesthood? Forbidden in the Bible
The obsession with Mary? I think that's been covered
Praying to saints? Not in the Bible
Restricting reading the Bible to the clergy? Against Bible principles. Yeah, I know that's changed
Priestly robes? Where does that come from?

The Roman Catholic organisation is worldly. God's Kingdom is not of this world. I refuse to call Rome the church. It's not. It's a religious organisation that bears only a passing resemblance to the real church. And it is structurally impossible to change it.

Tell you what, tell me no show me where everything has to be in the Bible. Show me where the Bible is the authority. I can tell you you will not find it
 
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GenemZ

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Papal infallibility? Not in the Bible.
Celibate priesthood? Forbidden in the Bible
The obsession with Mary? I think that's been covered
Praying to saints? Not in the Bible
Restricting reading the Bible to the clergy? Against Bible principles. Yeah, I know that's changed
Priestly robes? Where does that come from?

The Roman Catholic organisation is worldly. God's Kingdom is not of this world. I refuse to call Rome the church. It's not. It's a religious organisation that bears only a passing resemblance to the real church. And it is structurally impossible to change it.
Jesus said the following because God always knew we would all have Bibles in our hands to read for ourselves. They who claim to be the stewards of God's Word (RCC) got caught with their pants down. The reason they continue today is because there are still believers who are apathetic towards learning the Bible and studying it. And, then believing what it says.

For years the Catholic church kept their congregations without Bibles to read for themselves. The Scriptures they possessed were not accessible to the congregations for private study. To be read, even, if were only to serve the purpose of being asked questions about passages.

And, the leaders of the RCC should have been serious students to study and teach. Instead, they developed a system to follow blindly that offered very little access to Scripture, let alone, being taught new things from the Bible on a regular basis as we all need to mature in Christ.

Here is a kicker.. Without Bibles? Who could they even ask what the following means? Who would they ask if they could? Father McGuinness? Father McBride? Father Johnson?

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are
all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have
one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for
you have one Instructor, the Messiah."
Mat 23:8-9​

Note! Jesus said they were all *brothers.* If that was being so, how could anyone call his brother, "father?"

Jesus was driving a point home then that God knew was going to be corrupted some day (and then exposed for what it is).

And... an "elder" is an older wiser brother, never one's father.

Jesus was speaking about not using those words he mentioned for "titles for men." Therefore, describing your male parent as your father has an entirely different usage and meaning for the word. Yet, the RCC has its spin room to try to deny any wrong was done on their part...

Now... How could anyone call his brother, "Father?" Jesus made that point for good reason.

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers."

So be it. No matter what.. It still will be denied.

grace and peace........
 
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Dansiph

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Jesus said the following because God always knew we would all have Bible in our hands to read for ourselves.
For years the Catholic church kept their congregations without Bibles to read for themselves.
That doesn't add up?
 
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usexpat97

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I just read that Elizabeth I who was a Protestant tortured and executed the same amount of Catholics as Queen Mary did Protestants.

That may very well be true. There were Christian-vs-Christian wars, both sides killing each other. However, none of that would have happened had the Catholic church not burned at the stake people like Jan Hus, William Tyndale, etc.. Without those martyrs which the Catholic church caused, there would not be a Protestantism. The religious wars happened because of the kill-or-be-killed situation which the Catholic church caused.
 
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GenemZ

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That doesn't add up?
"We" are not "they." We are the ones here today and can check to see what is true with a Bible in many cases.

Jesus recorded words shows that God always knew the future and decreed a time that would come to expose the false teachings of the RCC.. That time came with the advent of the Gutenberg press.

Before then, the Bible was not available like today to have for a believer to read for himself. The Catholic church being well aware of this decided to take heretical liberties that went unchecked for a long time. Then, Martin Luther and the Gutenberg printing press became realities. Before Luther, the RCC could easily hide what would later expose their lies from the people. The Written Word.

7 Ways the Printing Press Changed the World...

https://www.history.com/news/printing-press-renaissance
 
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Inkfingers

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Yet Peter warned his own congregation that the cause for such divisions was to begin with them.


But there were also false prophets among the people, just as
there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly
introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord
who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many
will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth
into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with
fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."
2 Pet 2:1-3​

That does not speak very highly of those who wish to claim superiority when claiming they descended directly from Peter, does it?

It all comes down to correctly interpreting Scriptures. Not who held office before you did. Did George Bush make Obama into a better president?

Thousands of different denominations who cannot agree on interpretation of scripture is chaos not illuminating.
 
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Your misquote aside, here is what Elizabeth said:

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

She did NOT say, as Deborah said of Jael ...

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
Among women... among all women... it means the same thing, right? So what exactly is your point? To be blessed among women is to be a very special woman. But there are some among us here who insist on contradicting the Holy Spirit and the Word of God by insisting that she is not special at all, because all women, they say, who believe in Christ and do the will of His Father are just as special as Christ's actual mother Mary, Who is she who has given birth to God the Word in the flesh. Orthodox Christians regard her who bore God the Word in the flesh to be especially blessed, as she said in the Holy Spirit, "Behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" as recorded in the Word of God. That is all that needs to be understood here. If Protestants (and this does not include Martin Luther because, as I remember it, he had great reverence for the Theotokos) want to stubbornly insist that there is nothing all that special about the Theotokos, well, we don't have anything to do with that. Carry on, I guess.
 
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