LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

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Dale

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No, other churches are NOT more open with their finances. How much does your church pay their clergy? Do you know where your tithing money goes?


This isn't true at all. Years ago I was in a Methodist church. I was told that this large, but local, Methodist church decided to stop contributing to the World Council of Churches, on the pastor's recommendation. The pastor said that the WCC doesn't publish a financial report, to speak of, and so the local church shouldn't contribute.

In the Baptist, Methodist, and nondenominational churches I am familiar with, the pastor's salary is public information. The pastor often deals with charity cases, so there is no easy way to separate the pastor's pay from what the church spends on charity.
 
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Dale

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Why don't you post how much of your tithes go to pay clergy? I know how much of out tithes go to pay clergy 0%. What percent of your tithes go to the poor? Can you find out where your tithing money goes? I can find out where my tithing money goes.


From what I can tell, your Bishop or Stake President report how they spend the tithes they receive locally. Once they forward money to the LDS world headquarters, there is little accountability. The accountability is all local but important decisions are made at headquarters.
 
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Seer stones
Read your OT again and notice how many time stones are used by God to communicate something. Also each of those that enter into the Lord's presence will be given a white stone
with a new name on it.... (Revelations 2:17)
So stones have been used by the Lord in the past, and in the time of JS. A lot of people do not know this, so it can be confusing.

The Book of Abraham
The interesting thing about the Book of Abraham is that JS made some interesting interpretations of the facsimilies that came with the BOA. Many Egyptologists do not believe that JS interpreted correctly. These are the people that you have chosen to believe. Rather than your prophet and other Egyptologists that agree or partially agree with JS.
You have to remember that Egyptology is still an ongoing study. It is very difficult to know exactly what 300bc Egyptians were trying to say in their writings, let alone going back to 2000bc.
Is what JS said plausible. Many say yes, many say no. Study those that say yes and you will be better served. If you are going to doubt, why not doubt those say no, instead of those saying yes. The jury is still way to out for anyone to say this is false.

The church's racist doctrine...
Are you a Democrat. In fact, are you kidding. You were born after all men were given the right to hold priesthood. For the last 40 years all men have had the right to hold priesthood. In fact one of the largest areas of growth for the church is in black Africa. The church is all in and there is great work being done by all colors of people
throughout all the world. The church is the model that should be used by governments to mesh people of all colors in a great cause of witnessing to the world of Jesus Christ.
If you want to stay in the past and doubt the fuzzy past, do so and you will get left behind by all the colored folks you feel sorry for, who have the blessings of the priesthood and now you do not.

Polygamy and Polyandry
Polyandry has never been proved. JS did marry a few women that were married at the time to other men. However, JS marriage to them was for only "eternity". Not for "time and all eternity". "time" = "this life", "and all eternity" = "after death".
So JS marriage was for after they died, then they were married to him for eternity. So they went back to their husbands and lived out their lives without any sexual relations with JS, and when they died, then they were a wife of JS.
Polygany was a blessing to the church. It was able to grow exponentially and quickly became a nation in less time than usual. This nation then was able to defend itself, create its own economy, take care of the women who lost men in persecutions, create a missionary force quickly, etc., etc., etc.
You again are listening to the wrong people. Doubt what they say, not your prophet and leaders of the church and the actually facts about polygamy. Did some men abuse their relationships, yes, but those few can not be the examples you question. Look at all the hundreds of men and women who live the way the Lord wanted them to live at the time. Who brought to pass the word of the Lord and brought to pass a desert empire that is reaching around the world and declaring Jesus Christ is coming, prepare and repent and be ready for his second coming.

also read the OT and all the people (prophets, kings, priests, common men and women) that practiced plural marriage. The Lord allowed polygamy then, for the same reason he allowed JS and the church members to practice polygamy today. To grow a nation to the Lord, quickly.

The Kinderhook plates
Read the story from an LDS writer, and you will see how stupid this story really is. If you read it from an anti side, they tell a whole different story that is just not true.
Again, doubt the anti, do not doubt your religion.

I have looked at all of these examples you have given me many, many times and have remained faithful in the church because I doubted what they said, rather than my prophet and leaders and authors and researchers on our side. Do the same.


Peter: "Read your OT again and notice how many time stones are used by God to communicate something. Also each of those that enter into the Lord's presence will be given a white stone
with a new name on it.... (Revelations 2:17)
So stones have been used by the Lord in the past, and in the time of JS. A lot of people do not know this, so it can be confusing."


The white stones in Revelation aren't used for divination and they aren't relevant.

The only stones in the OT ever used for divination by God's people are the Urim and Thummin used by the High Priests. Those were only used to answer the simplest questions, like go to war or do not go to war, particularly at the time of the judges. They were never used for any task as complicated as translating a manuscript from one language to another.


Peter: "also read the OT and all the people (prophets, kings, priests, common men and women) that practiced plural marriage. The Lord allowed polygamy then, for the same reason he allowed JS and the church members to practice polygamy today. To grow a nation to the Lord, quickly."



You need to give the OT a more careful reading. God did not give Adam two wives. Noah did not have two wives, despite the need to repopulate the earth. When Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, he separated from his wife. As leader of the Israelites, he could easily have taken multiple wives but he did not. Moses did not remarry after separation from his first wife.

Isaac only had one wife. Jacob initially married two women only because he was tricked into marrying the wrong woman the first time.

Abraham's relationship to Hagar is more complicated. She was a servant who became a concubine as a result of Abraham's desire for a son, an heir. As a minister explained it to me, it was how it was done at the time but it was not God's plan. Several years after the birth of Ishmael to Hagar, God ordered Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away.

King David's desire to add Bathsheba to his collection of wives led to his greatest sin.

Solomon's multiple wives, including foreign ones, proved disastrous to the country. Marrying foreign princesses may have helped keep the peace but at the price of building pagan temples in Jerusalem, served by pagan priests. Many of Solomon's wives did not share Solomon's religion and letting them worship the same gods and goddesses they had grown up with was part of the deal.

Think again about polygamy.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes John will die so he can be resurrected, but he won't die until after the second coming.


LOL!! Scripture does not say that!! yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Now, why on earth would he need to die in order to be resurrected?? He has already been changed and is a "translated being" according to you guys---which means, he does not need to die and be changed---that has already been done.
 
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Leaf473

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and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
fascinating quote from 3 Nephi 28, there!

so there were, supposedly, these three people going around preaching the gospel for centuries, yet by the time Joseph comes along in the early 1800s, the true gospel is lost and needs restoring?

Before Joseph Smith restored the true gospel of Christ on earth, before he restored the priesthood in the 1800's, there was still one living apostle wandering the earth...
LDS believe the apostle John has been alive this whole time?
imo, that would make it less likely that the New testament documents have been significantly corrupted.
then, "plain and precious things" haven't been removed.

if Joseph didn't tell the truth about the new testament, imo it doesn't make sense to believe what he had to say about the book of abraham.
...and three Nephite disciples, probably with authority, having been taught by Christ and given this gift.
what is "the authority"?
some kind of priesthood authority, I'm guessing?
The way I always thought of them was just as some neat folklore, fruit for spiritual stories people had of meeting these kindly, opportune strangers who granted them some mercy or kindness and then were gone.
yes, kind of like the stories in the Touched by an Angel TV series, I'm thinking.

but Mormons don't believe those four people were actively preaching the gospel that whole time?
 
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Leaf473

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John the beloved has not died, but like Elijah he was changed. He does NOT have a resurrected body yet and neither do we, but we all will.
in your understanding, has John been on Earth this whole time?

if so, what has he been doing?
has he had priesthood authority here on Earth?
 
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Leaf473

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This isn't true at all. Years ago I was in a Methodist church. I was told that this large, but local, Methodist church decided to stop contributing to the World Council of Churches, on the pastor's recommendation. The pastor said that the WCC doesn't publish a financial report, to speak of, and so the local church shouldn't contribute.

In the Baptist, Methodist, and nondenominational churches I am familiar with, the pastor's salary is public information. The pastor often deals with charity cases, so there is no easy way to separate the pastor's pay from what the church spends on charity.
I've had similar experiences, I assumed most churches were open about their finances and salaries.

as I see it, mold and fungus grow where it's dark.
sunlight kills them.

John 3:19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
 
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He is the way

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This isn't true at all. Years ago I was in a Methodist church. I was told that this large, but local, Methodist church decided to stop contributing to the World Council of Churches, on the pastor's recommendation. The pastor said that the WCC doesn't publish a financial report, to speak of, and so the local church shouldn't contribute.

In the Baptist, Methodist, and nondenominational churches I am familiar with, the pastor's salary is public information. The pastor often deals with charity cases, so there is no easy way to separate the pastor's pay from what the church spends on charity.
Tithe payers in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints can find out where their money is spent.
 
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He is the way

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From what I can tell, your Bishop or Stake President report how they spend the tithes they receive locally. Once they forward money to the LDS world headquarters, there is little accountability. The accountability is all local but important decisions are made at headquarters.
That is because they know where churches need to be built.
 
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LOL!! Scripture does not say that!! yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Now, why on earth would he need to die in order to be resurrected?? He has already been changed and is a "translated being" according to you guys---which means, he does not need to die and be changed---that has already been done.
That is exactly what it says. He will die but not until Christ's second coming.
 
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mmksparbud

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That is exactly what it says. He will die but not until Christ's second coming.


Please point to where it says :"not until Christ's 2nd coming.' For nothing comes after---
"yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

Where does it ever turn that "if" into an actuality?

The statement Jesus made was not really about John---it was to tell Peter---it was none of his business!

Again---why would John have to die when he has already been translated, he has al,ready been changed. Thoise thst are alive at the coming of Jesus do not die---they are translated after they are changed. And the righteous dead are raised and changed.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is very clear that those that are alive will need only be changed in order to be with Jesus. John has already been changed according to you guys. So he is ready to go---the word translated means to go to heaven without dying. So it is a misnomer to say John has been translated as he is still here, however, if his body has been changed then he need not die, only the dead in Christ need to be resurrected. Those that are alive it says they will not die, just be changed, for we must all be changed and John already was.
 
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mmksparbud

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I have answered those questions already.


Not really---if John is a priest on earth, what priestly duties has he been performing without any temple?
 
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Peter1000

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Wow!! How did I know that is what you were going to say? I must be psychic!! That is the point. LDS do not know who Jesus really is----the Creator of all things---from nothing-- who shed His life for our sins though One with God from everlasting. He was the one there at creation, walked with Adam and Eve, so many things you do not know---and if you do not know Him, He will not know you. just like the rich young ruler who did not truly love the Lord, but loved his riches---he walked away sorrowfully though he kept the commandments. and like those who did all sorts of "good, wonderful works"

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
That Jesus created the world. That Jesus shed his life for our sins through 1 God everlasting. That Jesus was there on creation days, and walked with Adam and Eve is elementary Jesus Christ. We believe all those things. Do you have more?

The one area we would disagree is that we believe that God did not create everything out of nothing. So read this:
The Living Words: Creation | AHRC

Anyway, we believe a lot more on the most important parts of Jesus just as you do.
 
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Please point to where it says :"not until Christ's 2nd coming.' For nothing comes after---
"yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

Where does it ever turn that "if" into an actuality?

The statement Jesus made was not really about John---it was to tell Peter---it was none of his business!

Again---why would John have to die when he has already been translated, he has al,ready been changed. Thoise thst are alive at the coming of Jesus do not die---they are translated after they are changed. And the righteous dead are raised and changed.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is very clear that those that are alive will need only be changed in order to be with Jesus. John has already been changed according to you guys. So he is ready to go---the word translated means to go to heaven without dying. So it is a misnomer to say John has been translated as he is still here, however, if his body has been changed then he need not die, only the dead in Christ need to be resurrected. Those that are alive it says they will not die, just be changed, for we must all be changed and John already was.
Here is the clincher.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:28)

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
 
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mmksparbud

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That Jesus created the world. That Jesus shed his life for our sins through 1 God everlasting. That Jesus was there on creation days, and walked with Adam and Eve is elementary Jesus Christ. We believe all those things. Do you have more?

The one area we would disagree is that we believe that God did not create everything out of nothing. So read this:
The Living Words: Creation | AHRC

Anyway, we believe a lot more on the most important parts of Jesus just as you do.

When I started here, you guys did not believe that Jesus created everything! You certainly did not say that He created Lucifer---as that makes Jesus his creator, and therefore, certainly not His brother. You did not believe that He was from everlasting for you believed that He was the product of the Father and one of His wives. and definitely had a beginning as a spiritual child--not fully God. When did these changes occur?? Glad to hear there have been some. Or is this more of your word games? And He moist certainly created everything from nothiing--and please cut the baloney that it wasn't from nothing for He is something! He did not create Himself.
 
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Yes I did answer them to the best of my ability. He is doing God's work.


The best of your ability shows that you have no idea what He is doing!! And it all shows that none of this makes any sense whatsoever for you can not answer all the questions that this "translation" has brought up. And you can't answer them, because they make no sense to you either---not that you would ever admit that!!
 
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Peter1000

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Please point to where it says :"not until Christ's 2nd coming.' For nothing comes after---
"yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

Where does it ever turn that "if" into an actuality?

The statement Jesus made was not really about John---it was to tell Peter---it was none of his business!

Again---why would John have to die when he has already been translated, he has al,ready been changed. Thoise thst are alive at the coming of Jesus do not die---they are translated after they are changed. And the righteous dead are raised and changed.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is very clear that those that are alive will need only be changed in order to be with Jesus. John has already been changed according to you guys. So he is ready to go---the word translated means to go to heaven without dying. So it is a misnomer to say John has been translated as he is still here, however, if his body has been changed then he need not die, only the dead in Christ need to be resurrected. Those that are alive it says they will not die, just be changed, for we must all be changed and John already was.
All people living at the time of Christ second coming will be changed in the twinkling of the eye. That change includes, death and resurrection instantly.

John is a translated being, which is different than a resurrected being. So John will also be changed in the twinkling of the eye. His change will be death and resurrection instantly.
 
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