Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

claninja said:

And at the resurrection according to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25.

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Except the parable itself says:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

P.S. This event hasn't happened yet! Jesus was not raised in a glorified body. The body that came out of the grave was the same body that went into the grave.

If Jesus was raised in glory; that would have meant the end of the cosmos; because this universe is corrupted. For no man can see the glory of God and live. This is why Moses back in Exodus was hid in the cleft of the rock.

When Jesus returns; because He's currently in glory; this is the reason the universe is destroyed. This is why we don't see theophanies today either.

claninja said:

And when the kingdom is taken from the wicked tenants when the vineyard owner came to destroy them in Matthew 21.

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Again, this happened at Pentecost and the end result there of was the destruction of Jerusalem.

claninja said:

In 2 Chonicles 36, it states that Cyrus (Persia) has been given all the kingdoms of the earth.

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Except Cyrus is the one saying this; not God.

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

claninja said:

So I interpret the 4th beast of Daniel 7’s “devouring the whole earth” in the same manner, and would disagree with your assertion.

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Considering you've misquoted Chronicles; you can't make that argument now.

claninja said:

As the New Testament declares that Christ established the Kingdom at his 1st advent, and that the saints are translated into this kingdom, starting in the 1st century, It can be confirmed that the 4th beast of Daniel 7 is Rome.

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Except again; Revelation is very clear that the last beast continues to Judgement Day. So in that sense it can't be "the Roman Empire" because the Roman Empire no longer exists any more.

The last beast which is stated in Daniel to be different from all the rest infiltrates political kingdoms and comes to dominate the world; but it is not specifically one political kingdom. It's like a spider web that connects through all of them. I would say the "beast system" is what the "conspiracy theorists" call "the deep state".

claninja said:

I would argue the Beast of revelation isn’t necessarily only Rome, but a consolidation of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, culminating in the little horn which Rises during the 4th empire (Rome).

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Now I would actually agree with you that the "origin point" of what would become Talmudic Judaism began with the Babylonian captivity. Nebuchanazzar is the first kingdom in that line. Isaiah 14:4+ equates the king of Babylon to Satan.

So this does fit into the whole narrative of the beast being the "last king" who is Satan himself. And this is why his kingdom (the last kingdom) is diverse from the political kingdoms; even though it comes to encompass political kingdoms (and has actually done so for thousands of years).

claninja said:

Both the beast of revelation and the little horn blaspheme God and persecute the saints for a time, times, and half a time (42 months).

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OK you got John the Baptist to Pentecost is 3.5 years. (42 months).

But you also have "1000 years is as a day" and "a day as 1000 years". You have 3.5 days. their "dead bodies" are laying in the streets.

3500 years; starting with Moses and Exodus; brings you to what?

Moses to David is 500 years.
David to Christ is 1000 years.
We're almost 2000 years post the resurrection.
3.5 years, 3.5 days, time, times and 1/2 time.

What major event commenced with Exodus that continues to the end of the 1st century. (The penning of the Scripture.) 2000 years now we have Old and New Testaments.

3.5 years, 3.5 days, time times and 1/2 time = the whole time span that humanity has written Scripture. What has been happening in that 3500 years? (The people of God have been martyred.)

That fits into what you say here. (How long has Jerusalem been around?)

claninja said:

I would argue that the harlot Of revelation 17 is 1st century Jerusalem This is the evidenced via the title given her as the great city. Revelation 11 defines the great city as Jerusalem. Revelation 18 declares she is responsible for all the righteous blood shed, which corresponds to Jesus declaring The generation of Jerusalem in front of him as responsible for all the righteous blood shed in Matthew 23.

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Now, you have another problem. Revelation says the 10 horns have no kingdom yet.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

So if you believe Revelation was written some time between 50 and 90 AD; who would these 10 kings be? They can't be Roman emperors post destruction of Jerusalem.

Yet if these are 10 kings that "receive power as kings one hour with the beast" are kingdoms that arise just before the final resurrection; low and behold we have 10 nations (or parts of nations) today that occupy the same geographical space as the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires.

And interestingly; these are the same geographical areas as those mentioned in the book of Acts at Pentecost.

claninja said:

When the harlot is destroyed by the beast and it’s 10 horns, the wedding feast is ready (revelation 19). This parallels the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, which has The wedding feast gathering the good and bad into the hall after the armies burn the city of Jerusalem.

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Yet note the wedding feast doesn't take place until the end of time. (There are events that happen after the city is burned. Servants are still collecting people for the wedding.)

Next, go to the parable of the 10 virgins. The groom goes away "tarries" for a long time and all those awaiting fall asleep. When He comes; they all awake and get their lamps ready. 5 of them have no oil and while they are out trying to "buy" oil; it's over. The door is shut to them and they aren't allowed to enter. He tells them "I don't know you." This is in another parable about Judgement Day when He tells people who claim to be His servants: "Be gone from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you."

So if you put all these wedding feast parables together; you see that the wedding feast is at the end of time.

So thus the 10 horns that destroy Jerusalem (finally God doing so for ever) are at the end of time.

claninja said:

Jesus declares the great tribulation in association with the destruction of the temple in the Olivet discourse. So I disagree, especially considering he does not tie the great tribulation to any other event.

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You misunderstand the olivet discourse. The "great tribulation" was connected to the atonement; we know this because right in the passage; Jesus says that if it wasn't shortened no flesh would be saved.

When was flesh saved?

It wasn't saved at the destruction of Jerusalem, because those who were left were those who were destroyed. Everyone else was told to leave.

Unless you want to claim the atonement wasn't complete at the cross?

The Righterzpen said:

P.S. This event hasn't happened yet! Jesus was not raised in a glorified body. The body that came out of the grave was the same body that went into the grave.

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I believe Jesus coming into glory and sitting on the throne means his ascension To the Father. Thus I believe this fulfilled.

it is upon this fulfillment (ascension) that that good and bad are gathered into the kingdom like a net, or grow together like the wheat and tares. It is upon Christ’s coming in judgement upon Israel that those in Christ are the gathered into bins or put in the barn or gathered into the wedding hall (inherit the kingdom)

The Righterzpen said:

Again, this happened at Pentecost and the end result there of was the destruction of Jerusalem.

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the wicked tenants were not destroyed at Pentecost. They were destroyed in 66-70ad in the Jewish Roman war.

The Righterzpen said:

Except Cyrus is the one saying this; not God.

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I never stated God is the one that said it.

The Righterzpen said:

Considering you've misquoted Chronicles; you can't make that argument now.

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Please no strong man arguments. I did not misquote the text. I made no claim that God is the one that said it.

additionally, you ignored my other points, where the angel states that Babylon rules over “them all” and that Greece should rule over “all the earth”. Therefore I interpret the 4th beast as ruling over all the earth in the same context.

The Righterzpen said:

Except again; Revelation is very clear that the last beast continues to Judgement Day. So in that sense it can't be "the Roman Empire" because the Roman Empire no longer exists any more.

The last beast which is stated in Daniel to be different from all the rest infiltrates political kingdoms and comes to dominate the world; but it is not specifically one political kingdom. It's like a spider web that connects through all of them. I would say the "beast system" is what the "conspiracy theorists" call "the deep state".

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That’s why I think it’s important to establish that the beast Of revelation is not solely Rome, as we seem to agree.

I would disagree though that it connects all kingdoms. I would argue it only connects Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, culminating in the 1st century persecution of Christ and his body and destruction of Jerusalem.

The Righterzpen said:

Now I would actually agree with you that the "origin point" of what would become Talmudic Judaism began with the Babylonian captivity. Nebuchanazzar is the first kingdom in that line. Isaiah 14:4+ equates the king of Babylon to Satan.

So this does fit into the whole narrative of the beast being the "last king" who is Satan himself. And this is why his kingdom (the last kingdom) is diverse from the political kingdoms; even though it comes to encompass political kingdoms (and has actually done so for thousands of years)

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Probably the reason the beast takes the same form as the dragon in revelation.

The Righterzpen said:

OK you got John the Baptist to Pentecost is 3.5 years. (42 months).

But you also have "1000 years is as a day" and "a day as 1000 years". You have 3.5 days. their "dead bodies" are laying in the streets.

3500 years; starting with Moses and Exodus; brings you to what?

Moses to David is 500 years.
David to Christ is 1000 years.
We're almost 2000 years post the resurrection.
3.5 years, 3.5 days, time, times and 1/2 time.

What major event commenced with Exodus that continues to the end of the 1st century. (The penning of the Scripture.) 2000 years now we have Old and New Testaments.

3.5 years, 3.5 days, time times and 1/2 time = the whole time span that humanity has written Scripture. What has been happening in that 3500 years? (The people of God have been martyred.)

That fits into what you say here. (How long has Jerusalem been around?)

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An easier way to sum this up, without using unfounded calculations, would be to just go with scripture. The events of Daniel 10-12 are one vision. Thus the time, times, and half a time are between Cyrus and the great tribulation leading up to the shattering of the power of the holy people.


And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Daniel 12:6-7 - Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 12:6-7 - English Standard Version

The Righterzpen said:

Now, you have another problem. Revelation says the 10 horns have no kingdom yet.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

So if you believe Revelation was written some time between 50 and 90 AD; who would these 10 kings be? They can't be Roman emperors post destruction of Jerusalem.

Yet if these are 10 kings that "receive power as kings one hour with the beast" are kingdoms that arise just before the final resurrection; low and behold we have 10 nations (or parts of nations) today that occupy the same geographical space as the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires.

And interestingly; these are the same geographical areas as those mentioned in the book of Acts at Pentecost.

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I would only have a problem if I attempted to identify them, as scripture doesn’t. Any identification is purely personal interpretation. Therefore I don’t speculate specific identities.

since they, along with the beast of revelation, are responsible for the destruction of the harlot (1st century Jerusalem responsible for all the righteous bloodshed), then they existed in the first century, regardless of who or what they are.

The Righterzpen said:

Yet note the wedding feast doesn't take place until the end of time. (There are events that happen after the city is burned. Servants are still collecting people for the wedding.)

Next, go to the parable of the 10 virgins. The groom goes away "tarries" for a long time and all those awaiting fall asleep. When He comes; they all awake and get their lamps ready. 5 of them have no oil and while they are out trying to "buy" oil; it's over. The door is shut to them and they aren't allowed to enter. He tells them "I don't know you." This is in another parable about Judgement Day when He tells people who claim to be His servants: "Be gone from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you."

So if you put all these wedding feast parables together; you see that the wedding feast is at the end of time.

So thus the 10 horns that destroy Jerusalem (finally God doing so for ever) are at the end of time.

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The Righterzpen said:

Yet note the wedding feast doesn't take place until the end of time. (There are events that happen after the city is burned. Servants are still collecting people for the wedding.)

Next, go to the parable of the 10 virgins. The groom goes away "tarries" for a long time and all those awaiting fall asleep. When He comes; they all awake and get their lamps ready. 5 of them have no oil and while they are out trying to "buy" oil; it's over. The door is shut to them and they aren't allowed to enter. He tells them "I don't know you." This is in another parable about Judgement Day when He tells people who claim to be His servants: "Be gone from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you."

So if you put all these wedding feast parables together; you see that the wedding feast is at the end of time.

So thus the 10 horns that destroy Jerusalem (finally God doing so for ever) are at the end of time.

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3 basic stages of an ancient Jewish wedding feast

1.) betrothal (groom would prepare room in fathers house)
2.) consummation (groom would come in the middle of night to take his bride back to his house to consummate the marriage)
3.)wedding feast ( family and friend would attend the feast celebrate the Already consummated marriage).

If servants are collecting people into the wedding hall, it means the consummation already happened. And Jesus is clear that the guests are invited and gathered into the wedding hall after the destruction of Jerusalem. This corresponds nicely with the Olivet discourse.

it cannot be a future end time event, as Jesus said 1st century Jerusalem would be charged and punished with all the righteous blood shed in Matthew 23. Jerusalem and it’s temple were destroyed in 66-70ad and were so by the beast and it’s 10 horns.

The Righterzpen said:

You misunderstand the olivet discourse. The "great tribulation" was connected to the atonement; we know this because right in the passage; Jesus says that if it wasn't shortened no flesh would be saved.

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i disagree. The context leading up to olivet discourse involves the parable of the wicked tenants, the wedding feast, and the woes to the Pharisees, scribes. 1st century Jerusalem is charged with all the righteous blood. 1st century Jerusalem is to be destroyed for not recognizing the time of Gods visitation.

The Righterzpen said:

When was flesh saved?

It wasn't saved at the destruction of Jerusalem, because those who were left were those who were destroyed. Everyone else was told to leave.

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I agree salvation was not the result of
Destruction of Jerusalem, but because of the cross.

Saved is not always a term for salvation. It can also mean being saved from bodily harm.

considering it is the ‘flesh’ that Jesus is talking about, I would argue it is about being saved from physical harm, not salvation, as you seem to be arguing.

The Righterzpen said:

Unless you want to claim the atonement wasn't complete at the cross?

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I agree atonement was accomplished at the cross.

BABerean2 said:

No one can deny there was a "conspiracy" to destroy buildings in the World Trade Center complex on 9-11-01.

Some believe it was a conspiracy plot conceived by Osama Bin Laden and 19 Arab highjackers.
Others believe it was another group of conspirators.

If you want to believe the version found below, you have many who would agree with you.

.

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Absolutely agree that there was a conspiracy to destroy the world trade towers.

However it is Not a conspiracy THEORY that men hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings.

claninja said:

I believe Jesus coming into glory and sitting on the throne means his ascension To the Father. Thus I believe this fulfilled.

it is upon this fulfillment (ascension) that that good and bad are gathered into the kingdom like a net, or grow together like the wheat and tares. It is upon Christ’s coming in judgement upon Israel that those in Christ are the gathered into bins or put in the barn or gathered into the wedding hall (inherit the kingdom)

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Your interpretation here though doesn't line up with what the parable actually says. Go back and look at the parable in Matthew 25. In this parable; the redeemed and the unredeemed are gathered together in one event. That isn't what happened when Jesus ascended to the Father. The only people you see standing before God in Revelation 5 (the "first" ascension to the Father) are "those who came out of great tribulation".

Which means that those "who came out of great tribulation" has to be connected to the atonement, (not the destruction of Jerusalem) because Jesus ascended to the Father (the first time) at the point that He died. This is why He says to the thief; "Today you will be with me in paradise." Note, he didn't say "when I rise from the dead" or "when I ascend to the Father 40 days after rising from the dead". He said "Today...."

Yet note after He rose from the dead; there were saints who were resurrected and "walked around in the holy city"; which means they ascended in bodily form to the New Jerusalem (which is currently in heaven; i.e. the presence of God). (Matthew 27:53)

Here too you've contradicted your own position, because if you say the great tribulation happened at the destruction of Jerusalem; you have 40 years between the bodily ascension of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem and it's very clear in Revelation, that those who "came out of great tribulation" are present in heaven when the lamb opens the seals.

This appearance in heaven and the opening of the seals happened upon Jesus's death. His human spirit was relinquished from the flesh, the Divine nature was torn from the flesh, (which is actually what killed Him) his human soul was released from hades. His soul and spirit ascended to heaven to open the seals and His body went into the grave. His flesh "rested" for the Sabbath and He rose soul, human spirit, Divine nature all "re-stuffed" into the flesh; just as He had existed upon the incarnation. And it isn't until He ascends back to heaven that He's glorified in bodily form. That took place 40 days after rising from the dead.

So in order for you to connect the ascension to the great tribulation; you'd have to say the great tabulation happened some time 10 days before Pentecost.

Now the other issue you have trying to fit this parable (Matthew 25) into your interpretation is that the redeemed are brought into the kingdom and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. This is one event. Matthew 25:41 uses the term "everlasting fire".

In the parable of the wedding feast; it's called "the outer darkness".

Now Matthew 25:31 is interesting. (I just noticed this.)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Note Hebrews 12:2. Christ is "set down" at the right hand of the throne of God the Father. He's not sitting on his own throne yet. (Fascinating.) That happens at the end of time when the cosmos is recreated and there is no more death, sin, no one else to be redeemed. The work of the Father, Son and Spirit is complete. That's the point the Son sits down on His Own throne.

claninja said:

the wicked tenants were not destroyed at Pentecost. They were destroyed in 66-70ad in the Jewish Roman war.

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The parable in question is Matthew 21: Note the order!

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

(OT prophets killed by the unregenerate of their own nation.)

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

(The incarnation.)

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

(The crucifixion.)

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

(Note how theologically correct their answer is. They admittedly sign their own death sentence; actually stating that they know they deserve destruction!)

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

(Jesus statement; His atoning work is the cornerstone of faith.)

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This happened at Pentecost!

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Here is the proclamation of their destruction. Notice this happens AFTER the kingdom is taken from them!

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

They knew they'd just signed their own death warrant!

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The kingdom is taken from them before their destruction happens. The "transfer" of the Kingdom happened at Pentecost. The destruction happened in 70 AD.

claninja said:

I never stated God is the one that said it.

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Your assertion though was because you'd seen this written in Scripture (not considering the source of who said it) that it was appropriate to build a doctrine on it.

"The fool says in his heart there is no God." That's also in Scripture; but you don't build a doctrine on that by proclaiming - "See the Bible says there's no God."

claninja said:

additionally, you ignored my other points, where the angel states that Babylon rules over “them all” and that Greece should rule over “all the earth”. Therefore I interpret the 4th beast as ruling over all the earth in the same context.

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You never brought up Daniel 2:38. But since you bring it up now; let's take a look at it.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

(Keep in mind Nebuchanazzar is equated to Satan in other passages. So not only do you have a historical context; you also have a greater "realm of the spiritual world" application.)

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

(This would apply to Satan more than Nebuchanazzar because Nebuchanazzar never did rule over the people in China, Africa, Europe or North and South America.)

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Now what are the other "kingdoms" or "domains" under Satan? That's another question we could ask. It would take some digging through the Scripture to figure out what "brass" means; or "iron" or that sort of thing means. Revelation too uses the language that Christ rules over the nations with a rod of iron. Again, would take some digging to find the common thread through all of these references. And we don't have much to go off of what the second kingdom is (other than it's represented by silver).

Yet we could also take the historical context of this; as the 3rd kingdom being Greece. Yet compare this language "bear rule over all the earth" to:

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

"Bear rule over" is also translated "bear authority".
Whereas "devour" means "to consume away" (or "eat").

Now does ancient Greece still bear authority over the current world?
I would say actually yes it does.
Now why is that?
Were did all of our current understandings of a democratic representative republic originate from? All those concepts originated with the Greeks. The Romans picked that up and now it's become a world wide template for the governance of nations. So there's one way you can apply the historical truth to ancient Greece still "bears authority" over the world.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Now here's a valid question; what does all this mean in regards to Rome? "They shall mingle themselves with the seed of men..." (The Roman Empire was made up of human agents. So who or what has "mingled themselves with the seed of men"?)

This is starting to get a lot more complex than just looking at singular political kingdoms or empires.

We could ask ourselves; (just like with the Greek concepts of governance) what do we get that "came out of Rome" that "breaks the world into pieces" (as iron breaks into pieces)?

Materialism, opulent life style, a culture who's morals were in the gutter? What (outside of conquest from another nation) makes an empire collapse? Do the morals of Rome end up "devouring the world". It sure looks that way; doesn't it?

Now compare this to Christ rules the nations with a rod of iron. Morals are connected to the law. What does the law do; other than condemn sinners? Thus... the following verse.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So do these empires end up "ruling the entire earth" in a way that isn't apparently "political"? When you look at who's running the system (Satan); yes they do!

claninja said:

An easier way to sum this up, without using unfounded calculations, would be to just go with scripture. The events of Daniel 10-12 are one vision. Thus the time, times, and half a time are between Cyrus and the great tribulation leading up to the shattering of the power of the holy people.

Click to expand...

Cyrus the Great to the destruction of Jerusalem is like 609 years. How does that fit into "time, times and 1/2 time", 3.5 years, or 3.5 days?

539 BC to 70 AD = 609.

Yet.... John the Baptist to Pentecost is 3.5 years.
If 1000 years is as a day and a day as 1000 years; you have 3500 years.
"Time times and 1/2 time".
If a "time" does actually = 1000 years? There are some interesting passages that speak of the "times" of the gentiles. The "chronologies" and "times" ... you know that the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

claninja said:

since they, along with the beast of revelation, are responsible for the destruction of the harlot (1st century Jerusalem responsible for all the righteous bloodshed), then they existed in the first century, regardless of who or what they are.

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Except the book of Revelation doesn't support this assertion; because at the point it was written; it clearly says they haven't received their kingdom yet.

So if the book of Revelation was really written after the destruction of the temple? ..... You got a problem in your eschatological timeline here.

claninja said:

3 basic stages of an ancient Jewish wedding feast

1.) betrothal (groom would prepare room in fathers house)
2.) consummation (groom would come in the middle of night to take his bride back to his house to consummate the marriage)
3.)wedding feast ( family and friend would attend the feast celebrate the Already consummated marriage).

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1. Crucifixion.
2. Pentecost.
3. The one parable that speaks of the gathering of the guests; this is before the feast has actually happened. Revelation gives you both the wedding feast and what's happening to the unredeemed outside of the feast.

claninja said:

If servants are collecting people into the wedding hall, it means the consummation already happened. And Jesus is clear that the guests are invited and gathered into the wedding hall after the destruction of Jerusalem. This corresponds nicely with the Olivet discourse.

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Did the gospel stop going forth after the destruction of Jerusalem?

claninja said:

it cannot be a future end time event, as Jesus said 1st century Jerusalem would be charged and punished with all the righteous blood shed in Matthew 23. Jerusalem and it’s temple were destroyed in 66-70ad and were so by the beast and it’s 10 horns.

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Are people still not being martyred for the sake of the gospel today? Is there not still a reckoning for sin?

claninja said:

i disagree. The context leading up to olivet discourse involves the parable of the wicked tenants, the wedding feast, and the woes to the Pharisees, scribes. 1st century Jerusalem is charged with all the righteous blood. 1st century Jerusalem is to be destroyed for not recognizing the time of Gods visitation.

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Look really carefully at what the disciples ask. They actually ask two questions. They ask about the destruction of the temple and they actually do ask about the end of the world. What they don't realize though is that those are separate events. They assumed that the destruction of Judaism would mean the destruction of the world.

And note Jesus gives them two answers. He does tell them about the destruction of the temple. Then at the very end of the Olivet Discourse He says "Heaven and earth will pass away; but my words will not. But of that day and hour (the day and hour heavens and earth pass away); knows no man, not the angels (or me) but the Father in heaven."

Now valid question come the resurrection; do you think Jesus then knew when the destruction of the cosmos would come? To that I would say yes. I believe at the point of the resurrection; He knew. Now is enough of that information veiled in Scripture that we can know when it's close? I also believe the answer to that is yes.

claninja said:

I agree salvation was not the result of Destruction of Jerusalem, but because of the cross.

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Glad we're on the same page here!

claninja said:

Saved is not always a term for salvation. It can also mean being saved from bodily harm.

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But is that what that means in this context? Jesus said that if the tribulation was not shortened, no flesh would be saved. How would you possibly know how that would apply to the destruction of Jerusalem? How would you know when it was shortened? The predication of that is that if it was not shortened than no flesh would be saved. Well in the destruction of Jerusalem; the Romans literally wiped everyone out. This is why Jesus told the people that when the unrest starts (when armies begin to gather) LEAVE! Leave sooner if possible!

Paul was actually told by the Holy Ghost to not go into Jerusalem in about 58 - 60 AD. The Roman Jewish wars started in about 66 AD. Paul was actually the last believer to be removed (by the Romans actually) before the gathering before the destruction commenced.

So to say the tribulation was connected to the destruction of Jerusalem makes no sense because in reality; no flesh was saved. Jews who'd converted to Christianity left the area before this happened. Now were there Christian Roman soldiers involved in the siege? Probably.

claninja said:

considering it is the ‘flesh’ that Jesus is talking about, I would argue it is about being saved from physical harm, not salvation, as you seem to be arguing.

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Yet if the atonement is complete at the cross; and to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" what would physical death matter anyways?

If the atonement is complete; how could your flesh not be saved on account of the "great tribulation"? Jesus still rose from the dead. That was the evidence that the bodily resurrection is still going to happen.

This is why the "great tribulation" has to be connected to the atonement. Everything Daniel says about the great tribulation fits into the timeline of the week of the crucifixion. The "great tribulation" was the tribulation of Christ. Was He going to accomplish the atonement or was He going to just say; No, I'm not doing this. "Not my will but Your's be done."

Why do you think He "came unglued" in Gethsemane? What do you think being forsaken by all that's Divine does to he who bears both natures? The point that the tribulation was shortened was when Jesus was confronted by the angel of death. This consigned his human soul to hades. He didn't die though because He had a Divine nature. To be forsaken by all that was Divine was to have that nature rent from what was left of the human. if he'd sinned in the process; then his humanity would have been lost just like the rest of us.

If the atonement wasn't satisfied; the cosmos would have come unraveled at the point of the crucifixion.

BABerean2 said:

John Lear, who invented the Lear Jet, said he could not have performed the flight maneuvers which occurred on the day of 9-11-01.


What do you know about Dov Zekheim?
He was Comptroller of the Pentagon on 9-11-01, and was part of a corporation which developed a system for remote control of aircraft.

All commercial jets have a so-called "black box", which is actually orange, and is used to record flight data.

Where are the flight data recorders from these aircraft?

.

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Yes, I've heard this. (Not from this particular report; but from others).

Did you know that they shut down NORAD on 9/11? They told the military commanders that they were going to conduct a "terrorist exercise" that morning and this is why no one sent out any planes or missiles. Because if the military commanders knew this was real; you bet they would have intervened!

OH - P.S. Have you been watching the FED and the stock market? I've been watching a couple of videos; and just trying to figure out what's the best course of action for me to take when the proverbial stinky stuff does hit the fan. (I don't think it's going to come before the election.)

Rumor has it a new economic stimulus package is coming out. I'm making an assumption they are expecting another Covid shutdown.

Yep, yep and yep!

BABerean2 said:

The following is a story he did on the Federal Reserve system.
Anyone who wants to understand a true "conspiracy" should read the book by G. Edward Griffin, "The Creature from Jekyll Island", which documents the creation of the Federal Reserve. It is not "Federal", and there are no "reserves." It is one of the greatest pyramid schemes in the history of the world. The following scriptures reveal a dishonest money system.

Pro_16:11 A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Pro_20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.

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And if we really want to understand where this all "started"; we'll here we go!

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

I haven't watched these videos in their totality yet; but that's what I plan on doing before this evening is out.

Did you know Asher; who was the main opponent to the FED drown on the Titanic (oooh - I mean the Olympia)? Speaking of 9/11; it was the same scheme. (Destroy something and make the insurance company pay for it.) You seem pretty well versed in this information though; so I'm assuming you know this.

Amazing the stuff you find when you start digging through history. With all that Google tries to suppress; they can't hide it all!

BABerean2 said:

It looks like the U.S. could come apart at the seams in a few weeks when both political parties contest the election. We now have one less person on the Supreme Court to make decisions. This nation is ripe for a dictatorship because it is looking for a man to be our "savior".

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Yeah..... good point (about the nation looking for a savior). Hope you got some precious metals stashed away some where; (as well as some guns and ammo)! (At some point; we will all probably need them.)

BABerean2 said:

There also seems to be an effort underway to merge Christianity with modern Orthodox Judaism. The current president's daughter and son-in-law believe a dead rabbi named Schneerson is the messiah. They are a part of the Chabad movement. Some have seen their "Noahide Laws" as a threat to Christians. The president's son-in-law has been closely involved in so-called "Peace Deals" in the Middle East.

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Yeah, "Know More News" - I listen to him too. I've been following this in my Revelation study. It'll be interesting to see what happens; even though I'm certainly not a dispensationalist. That doesn't mean there aren't powers behind the scenes trying to push that narrative onto the world stage. (Which I think that's what we are seeing.) Now how far they will get before God intervenes?

All makes me want to go live off the grid in the mountains somewhere. LOL. But..... you know as well as I do: It aint over until God says so!

BABerean2 said:

The current secretary of state was shown an underground meeting place at "The Temple Mount" for the "Seventy Elders", and he was also shown a model of the third temple.

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Interesting! (Maybe I'll watch that video first?)

BABerean2 said:

The current secretary of state was shown an underground meeting place at "The Temple Mount" for the "Seventy Elders", and he was also shown a model of the third temple.

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(If you know this already - I recon you will have to pardon my insatiable compulsion to give a history lesson here! LOL I spend way too much time reading about military history!)

I just finished this video and looked on YouTube through the guy's other videos and though I think he's missing the origin point of fulfillment of Scripture (having to do with the atonement). It does seem to me there is a lot he's picked up on; that doesn't seem your average dispensationalist understands.

I watched the one about the "synagogue of satan"; and I don't wonder if his interpretation on this is actually coming from the bent of Rabbinic Judaism? I.E. this is what they think the proper interpretation of the passage is. I notice there is a lot of that in "Christianity" too. Let's ask an apostate religion who doesn't even believe Jesus is the Messiah what the Bible means. (Speaking of "the blind leading the blind".)

And here's where I understand self fulfilling "prophecy" as trying to force a particular narrative onto the world's political scene. I don't start to wonder if all this political finagling is just the two beasts in Revelation trying to prove each other wrong?

Granted, I haven't watched a whole lot of the guy's videos; but I did note that he understands that what they are all calling "the temple mount" is actually what's left of the Antonia Fortress. That isn't where the temple was at all!

Which brings me to this synagogue of the Sanhedrin that is underground? (I didn't even know this existed until watching this video. So thanks for posting it!)

The original council room for the elders was next to the temple. (Now I don't remember if it was on the left or right hand side - I think "right" if you were facing the temple.) But ironically it was damaged by an earthquake the year John began preaching in 30 AD. (There was also a solar eclipse that year that the Romans actually minted a coin of.)

Following that earthquake though; the council room was so damaged that it was actually never used again after John appears in the wilderness. (Interesting huh!) And this is why Jesus's "trial" was in the basement of the high priest's house. The things the council made decisions on; where suppose to be "right in front of the temple" where God could "witness" if they were making just judgements. (Quite ominous!)

Anyways; an earthquake damages that area in 30 AD and causes the doors that were in front of the holy of holies curtain to be permanently stuck open. (They could not get them both closed again.)

And the Passover before the one Jesus was crucified on; the tower of Shilom fell on a bunch of people and killed them. The tower of Shilom was part of the court of the gentiles. It had a walkway attached to it (which also collapsed and fell on a bunch of people) and was a holding place for sacrificial birds.

I think its Luke 17 talks about this event. It's also connected to an incident where Pilate sent soldiers into the temple itself and killed a bunch of people. Now the reason it seems Pilate issued this order had to do with a particular issue Jews have been accused of for at least the last 2000 years. (Which is one of the things one would get arrested for if mentioned in Europe today.) Hint: Pilate "mixed their blood with their own sacrifice."

This is why I think Barabas was in jail. He was guilty of sedition and murder. Yet if you do some really careful comparison of the language in Danial to the gospels; it seems they set Pilate up. (Which is exactly what's happening to (particular) political leaders today!)

Now the crucifixion was over on the Mount of Olives; close enough to the red heifer alter, so that the soldiers at the crucifixion site could witness the temple curtain being torn. The gospels say this; that the centurion witnessed this event. And of course when it was torn; they would have noticed there was no ark of the covenant.

The most plausible explanation for the missing ark; (besides the real "ark of the covenant" being on the cross next to them) was that it was taken by the Babylonians and most likely destroyed. Now, if there is something in the OT related to the destruction of the ark of the covenant in concert with the Babylonian captivity; I don't know where that is in Scripture. (If it's there; I haven't found it yet.)

That's something I've scratched my head over for a while. It's pretty clear the ark is missing by the point of the crucifixion, because from just before the Babylonian captivity; we never hear about it again. It's not clear from Scripture that there is any efforts to hide it; but we do know it's not mentioned as having come back from Babylon. (Thus the legend that it's in Ethiopia; but I don't believe that's true.) I don't think it exists any more.

Here's what the rebuilt one allegedly will look like:



So back to the video. Interesting that now they have the Sanhedrin's council room underground. ????

Also, looking at the model in the video. It looks like the one that's on display in the temple museum, which makes the Antonia fortress look like this real tiny thing.

Temple model:



Now see that little foursquare building with the 4 towers in the top right hand corner? That's suppose to be the Antonia Fortress. LOL

Now keep in mind that a whole Roman legion lived in the Antonia Fortress; which with soldiers, officers and "camp followers" (support personnel) would have been between 7000 and 10,000 people. A legion consisted of 5000 soldiers and the Roman army did support auxiliary people while "in the field".

They have found archeological evidence of this. Roman outpost forts that contained children's clothing, as well as mass graves that contained female and children's bodies. The Roman army also supplied female auxiliary personnel with weapons. There is one account of a legion actually breaking battle formation to return to the fort to protect their families. The commanders weren't "happy" about that; but they didn't bring any disciplinary action against the legion for their behavior either.) Colonial armies were modeled from the Roman army and while "on campaign" in wilderness areas; (just as in colonial times) the Roman army did send soldier's wives and families with them.

Real temple and Antonia fortress:


The temple is the smaller structure on the south end of the Antonia Fortress. The current "temple mount" is not where the temple was.

The building sitting over the "foundation stone" (which is currently under the Dome of the Rock); was actually part of the Praetorium; which is where trials were held in the Antonia fortress. This was the "judgement hall" where Jesus stood before Pilate before they went to "the pavement"; which was like what you'd call in a colonial fort "the parade ground".

The domed building (behind the Praetorium) was a temple to Mars; the Roman god of war. Mars was the proverbial "father of the army" and all "military bases" within the Empire proper had a temple to Mars in them. Within this temple would have been a large statue of a soldier (usually) clad in only a helmet, shield and a weapon. Although there are examples of "Mars" with clothes on.



In that vicinity (Praetorium) is where floggings would have taken place; because they didn't just flog criminals; they flogged disobedient soldiers too. Dependent on the reason one was flogged, would dictate the type of flogging one received. If one was sentenced to death; they'd receive a more severe flogging to facilitate their demise. And if one was flogged with a "cat of 9 tails flagellum" that was a death sentence itself. They would not have to crucify the person; because they would have bled out before they even made it to the cross.

(Thus makes "Passion of the Christ" movie unrealistic.)

Now soldiers who were to receive a death sentence; would not be crucified. (That was actually illegal in the Roman Empire.) The belief was that if you were honorable enough to get into the army to begin with; (you had to get through "boot camp" which was 4 months long) and if you accomplished that you were in the army for life and therefore were worthy of a more honorable death than that of a common criminal. (Pilate would have been in the army and would have worked his way up through the ranks.) So soldiers who were to be executed were often beaten to death by their fellow legionaries because it was considered a more honorable way to die.

Warrior Workout: The Roman Legion | Huckberry

Pilate ordered Jesus to be "chastised"; which meant he was to receive 39 lashes with a leather whip. Now the army used a three strand leather whip on soldiers; but Jewish custom was to use a calf skin whip that would have been of a softer leather and single stranded. (With an army whip; 39 lashes would have been accomplished with 13 strikes. Which this would have gotten the beating over with faster; but would this have caused more damage than the Jewish calf skin whip? (Probably - especially on a civilian who would not accustom to military life.)

A "chastisement" though was certainly survivable (and was intended to be). Also, generally speaking, men weren't flogged prior to crucifixion (at least not 39 times with a flagellum); as obviously they would have died before actually being crucified. There are records of executions where the persons were alive on the crosses for several days.

Also the Romans did not crucify women. A woman who was to receive a death sentence was beheaded instead.

Now your average Jewish male was at least 2 inches shorter than your average Roman soldier (You had to be at least 5ft 6in to get in the army to begin with.) and at least 30 pounds lighter. If Jesus fell within the statistical average of 1st century Jewish males; he wouldn't have been taller than 5ft 4in nor weighed more than 130lbs. The average Roman soldier was at least 5ft 6inch and 160+lbs. (You had to be tall enough, strong enough and trained enough to carry the armor.)

Due to the fact that there wasn't a whole lot of wood in the area that was suitable to building large structures with; they guess that most likely; Jesus's pre preaching occupation would have been masonry (as most houses were made of stone).

After having nearly starved to death prior to beginning preaching (40 days in the wilderness without food) and having done very little manual labor for 3.5 years of preaching; Jesus muscle mass index would have consisted pretty much of someone who walked a lot; but did little other manual labor.

So by the time he gets to the crucifixion; he was probably just a short skinny guy; and one that had just been whipped too. And thus Simon gets elected to carry the cross beam because Jesus may have been in too "bad of shape" at that point to have actually been able to pick it up on his own; as it would have weighted almost as much as he did. Which was rather unusual because most criminals did carry their own cross beams. (Thus of further evidence that Jesus was certainly of no physical threat to Rome.)

So yeah; a little history lesson you get here too.

I'll probably post another comment after I finish watching the video about the FED.

The Righterzpen said:

Your interpretation here though doesn't line up with what the parable actually says. Go back and look at the parable in Matthew 25. In this parable; the redeemed and the unredeemed are gathered together in one event. That isn't what happened when Jesus ascended to the Father. The only people you see standing before God in Revelation 5 (the "first" ascension to the Father) are "those who came out of great tribulation".

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1.) When does the son of man come into His glory and sit on the throne?
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Within the lifetimes of his generation
Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


At the resurrection and ascension in fulfillment of the promise made to David that his descendant would sit on the throne, in which Christ was given all authority, dominion, and power in this age and the age to come.

Acts 2:30-33 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Ephesians 1:20-21 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

Luke 24:26-27 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Therefore, Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father fulfills daniel 7, in which he comes into his glory to receive a kingdom

Daniel 7:13-14
“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed

2.) The gathering of the good and bad is a kingdom event that occurs at the going forth of the gospel culminating in the harvest and gathering of the good into the kingdom and the bad to eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

The kingdom is a like a net that gathers all kinds of fish prior to the end of the age.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.

The good and bad grow together prior to the end of the age.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The Righterzpen said:

Which means that those "who came out of great tribulation" has to be connected to the atonement, (not the destruction of Jerusalem) because Jesus ascended to the Father (the first time) at the point that He died. This is why He says to the thief; "Today you will be with me in paradise." Note, he didn't say "when I rise from the dead" or "when I ascend to the Father 40 days after rising from the dead". He said "Today...."

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I disagree. According to Jesus himself, he did not ascend to paradise that day. Therefore, i would argue Jesus' statement is "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

The Righterzpen said:

Which means that those "who came out of great tribulation" has to be connected to the atonement, (not the destruction of Jerusalem) because Jesus ascended to the Father (the first time) at the point that He died. This is why He says to the thief; "Today you will be with me in paradise." Note, he didn't say "when I rise from the dead" or "when I ascend to the Father 40 days after rising from the dead". He said "Today...."

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No contradiction.

Daniel records that the resurrection of the just and unjust occurs around the time of great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jesus associates the great tribulation with the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The Righterzpen said:

The kingdom is taken from them before their destruction happens. The "transfer" of the Kingdom happened at Pentecost. The destruction happened in 70 AD.

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The parable doesn't say the kingdom is taken away from them BEFORE their destruction. It is given to other tenants when the wicked ones are destroyed.

Matthew 21: 41, 43 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

This is consistent with the good and bad being gathered into the kingdom prior to the bad being destroyed at the end of the age as stated in the parable of the net. This is consistent with the good and bad growing together until the bad are burned at the end of the age.

The Righterzpen said:

Your assertion though was because you'd seen this written in Scripture (not considering the source of who said it) that it was appropriate to build a doctrine on it.

"The fool says in his heart there is no God." That's also in Scripture; but you don't build a doctrine on that by proclaiming - "See the Bible says there's no God."

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You misinterpreted my position and attempted to create a strawman argument out of that.

Additionally, I did not build a "doctrine".

The angel states the head of gold (Babylon) rules over all of men, animals, and birds wherever they dwell.
Daniel 2::37-38 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold.

The angel states the third kingdom (greece) rules over "all the earth"
Daniel 2:39 Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth

God Himself stirred the spirit of Cyrus (persia) to proclaim that God had given all the kingdoms of the earth.
2 Chronicles 36:22-23 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: 2“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the Lord his God be with him. Let him go up

Therefore I interpret the 4th beast as ruling over "all the earth" in the exact same way, as the other beasts (babylon, persia, and greece) as ruling over "all the earth". This is not a doctrine and This is not a single verse. This is using scripture to interpret scripture.

The Righterzpen said:

Cyrus the Great to the destruction of Jerusalem is like 609 years. How does that fit into "time, times and 1/2 time", 3.5 years, or 3.5 days?

539 BC to 70 AD = 609.

Yet.... John the Baptist to Pentecost is 3.5 years.
If 1000 years is as a day and a day as 1000 years; you have 3500 years.
"Time times and 1/2 time".
If a "time" does actually = 1000 years? There are some interesting passages that speak of the "times" of the gentiles. The "chronologies" and "times" ... you know that the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

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I believe there are 3 x times, time and half a time.

The time period between Cyrus and the shattering of the power of the holy people
Daniel 12:6-7 “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

The time for little horn to persecute the the saints.
Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The time of Christ's ministry and the time leading from his death, resurrection, and ascension until the gospel went to the gentiles after stephens stoning.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,g and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

The Righterzpen said:

Except the book of Revelation doesn't support this assertion; because at the point it was written; it clearly says they haven't received their kingdom yet.

So if the book of Revelation was really written after the destruction of the temple? ..... You got a problem in your eschatological timeline here.

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I am of the position that revelation was written prior to 70AD.

The harlot is dressed in the same color as the old covenant priesthood.
Revelation 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality.

Exodus 39:1 From the blue and purple and scarlet yarns they made finely woven garments,a

The harlot is the great city which is Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolicallyb is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Jesus charged 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Matthew 23:35-36so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

When the harlot is destroyed, the wedding feast is ready. This parrallels, when Jerusalem is destroyed the wedding feast is ready.

Revelation 19:1-2, 9
“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just;
for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” nd the angel saida to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.

Matthew 22:7-9 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.

Therefore the Harlot is 1st century Jerusalem based on using scripture to interpret scripture. The beast and its 10 horns, which are responsible for destroying Jerusalem, must then be in part related to its destruction, which would be the Romans, zealots, and imudeans.

The Righterzpen said:

1. Crucifixion.
2. Pentecost.
3. The one parable that speaks of the gathering of the guests; this is before the feast has actually happened. Revelation gives you both the wedding feast and what's happening to the unredeemed outside of the feast.

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The wedding feast is not ready until after the consummation according to ancient traditional Jewish Marriages. After the city is destroyed, the feast IS READY.

Matthew 22:8 ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy.

The Righterzpen said:

Did the gospel stop going forth after the destruction of Jerusalem?

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Absolutely. The gospel is everlasting.

The Righterzpen said:

Are people still not being martyred for the sake of the gospel today? Is there not still a reckoning for sin?

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Absolutely, Christians are still killed for the sake of the gospel today. And yes they will be judged accordingly when they stand before the judgment seat of Christ. However, they are not responsible for all the righteous blood shed, only the blood shed they spill.

What makes anyone's blood righteous? Christ. Therefore, God held 1st century Jerusalem responsible for all the righteous bloodshed

Matthew 23:35-36so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

BABerean2 said:

Leeland Jones produced a video which shows the scorpion carved into stones on "The Wailing Wall". The scorpion was the symbol of the tenth Roman legion.

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Now that I didn't know!

The rest of what you said I did know.

Also there was some complaint leveled by the Jews of "Roman standard above the temple". (If there is a Scripture reference to this; I'm not finding it at the moment.)

"Historians" first said that was some "tribute to Caesar" put over the temple entrance; when actually it had to do with flags that belonged to the Legion which Jews found "offensive". There is some record that Pilate actually removed some of these flags. I don't remember if Josephus said that or if that came from some other historical source.

I did know the Romans used Antonia during the siege; but what role it played I don't really know. I've never studied the actual siege itself. I know the siege involved 6 full legions; which is at least 30 thousand soldiers. Now what the population of Jerusalem was once the siege commenced; that I don't know either? Given Jesus's warning though (Olivet discourse and Luke) I know a lot of people left prior to the legions actually arriving.

Looking at Acts though and the (believed) timeline of Paul's arrest; I find it interesting that "things began to move" a good couple of years before the revolts actually started. Obviously it would have taken some time for the Romans to organize and move that many legions to the area to begin with. But it makes me now wonder if the imputes to "do something about this rebellious area" didn't commence shortly after the crucifixion.

Historically we know that at the point of the crucifixion Pilate was on "probation". There'd already been a revolt in Samaria that Pilate had put down; where people complained he'd done so with too much "overkill". Had he acted in excess; (from a strategic military standpoint) I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen the Roman records on that revolt.

He was called back to Rome in either 34 or 36 AD and at that point there are no Roman records of what happened to him. Legend says he either killed himself or was exiled. (He probably went off and retired somewhere; seeing how he'd held that post for at least ten years and in order to be assigned such type duty you had to be at least 40 years old. (Having been active "combat unit" for 20 years.) Pilate had also held similar posts for shorter durations in other parts of the empire. So come the point of the crucifixion Pilate would have at least been in his 50's; maybe even 60's. You could "officially retire" from the army at 65.) So it is plausible that after having been called back to Rome, Pilate just retired. Maybe he retired a little early for all the headaches he'd gotten? LOL

There's also evidence that Pilate knew (and the Romans knew) that the Sanhedrin had set him up. And his recalling to Rome no doubt gave an account of that. So I don't wonder that if at that point, Judea had "gotten on the radar" as a place that needed to be "dealt with" eventually.

So from a practical human perspective of people traveling between Rome and Judea; if word was not "getting out" of what was coming down the pike? Especially military people. I had a security clearance when I was in the military and I did know some future administrative / logistical plans that average civilians wouldn't have known. I knew about base closure plans that have now come to pass.

So soldiers in the area may have known (from more than just prophecy) that it was coming.

Anyways!
History is very interesting.

claninja said:

Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

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Do you believe we currently in the new heavens and the new earth?

What does anything that you've quoted (in your most recent extremely long last post) have to do with the recreation of the cosmos? Do you not believe there is a final resurrection? Are you a post millennialist?

claninja said:

I disagree. According to Jesus himself, he did not ascend to paradise that day. Therefore, i would argue Jesus' statement is "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

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So what did Jesus mean then when he told the thief "Today, you will be with me in paradise"?

claninja said:

I am of the position that revelation was written prior to 70AD.

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Then who are the 10 kings who have not received their kingdom after what ever point Revelation was written?

claninja said:

The wedding feast is not ready until after the consummation according to ancient traditional Jewish Marriages. After the city is destroyed, the feast IS READY.

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What was the point of Pentecost?

The Righterzpen said:

Look really carefully at what the disciples ask. They actually ask two questions. They ask about the destruction of the temple and they actually do ask about the end of the world. What they don't realize though is that those are separate events. They assumed that the destruction of Judaism would mean the destruction of the world.

And note Jesus gives them two answers. He does tell them about the destruction of the temple. Then at the very end of the Olivet Discourse He says "Heaven and earth will pass away; but my words will not. But of that day and hour (the day and hour heavens and earth pass away); knows no man, not the angels (or me) but the Father in heaven."

Now valid question come the resurrection; do you think Jesus then knew when the destruction of the cosmos would come? To that I would say yes. I believe at the point of the resurrection; He knew. Now is enough of that information veiled in Scripture that we can know when it's close? I also believe the answer to that is yes.

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The context starts with Jesus' statement of the temple destruction

Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:6 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

And you Correct, they ask 2 questions in response to this. When comparing all 3 accounts we can see that the first question is "when will this be" in regards to the temple destruction and the 2nd " what sign of the temple destruction about to take place" = " what sign of your coming and the end of the age".

Mark 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The Righterzpen said:

But is that what that means in this context? Jesus said that if the tribulation was not shortened, no flesh would be saved. How would you possibly know how that would apply to the destruction of Jerusalem? How would you know when it was shortened? The predication of that is that if it was not shortened than no flesh would be saved. Well in the destruction of Jerusalem; the Romans literally wiped everyone out. This is why Jesus told the people that when the unrest starts (when armies begin to gather) LEAVE! Leave sooner if possible!

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I'm not a greek scholar, so I typically rely on other sources.

Thayer's greek lexicon includes matthew 24:22 in regards to being saved from injury or peril.

universally, τινα, one (from injury or peril); to save a suffering one (from perishing), e. g. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health: Matthew 9:22; Mark 5:34; Mark 10:52; Luke 7:50 (others understand this as including spiritual healing (see b. below)); Luke 8:48; Luke 17:19; Luke 18:42; James 5:15; passive, Matthew 9:21; Mark 5:23, 28; Mark 6:56; Luke 8:36, 50; John 11:12; Acts 4:9 (cf. Buttmann, § 144, 25); . to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save (i. e. rescue): Matthew 8:25; Matthew 14:30; Matthew 24:22; Matthew 27:40, 42, 49; Mark 13:20; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:35, 37, 39; passive, Acts 27:20, 31; 1 Peter 4:18; τήν ψυχήν, (physical) life, Matthew 16:25; Mark 3:4; Mark 8:35; Luke 6:9; Luke 9:24 and R G L in ; σῴζειν τινα ἐκ with the genitive of the place, to bring safe forth from, Jude 1:5; ἐκ τῆς ὥρας ταύτης, from the peril of this hour, John 12:27; with the genitive of the state, ἐκ θανάτου, Hebrews 5:7; cf. Bleek, Brief an d. Hebrews 2:2, p. 70f; (Winers Grammar, § 30, 6 a.; see ἐκ, I. 5).d

The Righterzpen said:

If the atonement is complete; how could your flesh not be saved on account of the "great tribulation"? Jesus still rose from the dead. That was the evidence that the bodily resurrection is still going to happen.

This is why the "great tribulation" has to be connected to the atonement. Everything Daniel says about the great tribulation fits into the timeline of the week of the crucifixion. The "great tribulation" was the tribulation of Christ. Was He going to accomplish the atonement or was He going to just say; No, I'm not doing this. "Not my will but Your's be done."

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Atonement was found complete at the cross.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonementh for the sins of the people.

The great tribulation was in regards to the days of vengeance

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.