Why do people hate easy believism?

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It's not simply the truth, but is a straw man argument and man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I'm not anti-works. I simply put good works in their proper place. Subsequent to having been saved through faith. We have been saved through faith and created in Christ Jesus FIRST then unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

I am all for good works as part of the Christian walk AFTER having been saved through faith. Works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. Works-salvationists typically wrap both faith and works up in a package, then simply stamp "faith" on the package, making no distinction between faith and works. The end result is salvation by faith and works.

If we are saved based on the merits of holy living/works (which could include any number of good works) then just how holy must you be/how many good works does it take? That's not salvation through faith, but salvation by works.

Typical straw man argument from those who see themselves as "holier than thou." The Christian life is not about committing continuous, willful grievous sins as a Christian (1 John 3:7-10) so save your straw man arguments.

That's not what it's about at all, but that is your continued straw man argument. Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

So now you are teaching sinless perfection? This is all about you promoting yourself as "holier than thou" while looking down on and judging others. Particularly those in the OSAS camp. Seeking to live holy according to the Bible is not about "works righteousness." It's also not about the absolute perfection of our walk, but the direction of our walk.

I understand perfectly that the "grace of God" teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age, so save your straw man arguments. It's time for you to come down off your high horse and stop exalting yourself and judging others (just like in the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector - Luke 18:9-14). It's really getting old.

Also, to make a belief work that says we can commit grievous sin and still be saved, one has to ignore the many warnings in Scripture against those grievous sins that can lead to spiritual death, too.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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Danigt22

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Romans 8:13 gives a person two choices in life. One leads to life and the other to death.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Did Jesus justify sin? No, of course not.
A person who believes does not justify sin because Jesus did not justify sin.



Which translates into opening the door to creating more George Sodini's and Kenneth Nally's.

Check out this article here:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY



Okay. Jesus and His followers gave us many commandments. To obey Jesus and His followers is to obey God or to obey His instructions. Abraham was not obeying any instructions of God by trying to help God with the promise by sleep with his servant.

What else does the Bible say about not inheriting the kingdom?

In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul lists various sins like murder, hate, idolatry, drunkenness, adultery, etc. and say that they which do such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).
 
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It's not simply the truth, but is a straw man argument and man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I'm not anti-works. I simply put good works in their proper place. Subsequent to having been saved through faith. We have been saved through faith and created in Christ Jesus FIRST then unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

I am all for good works as part of the Christian walk AFTER having been saved through faith. Works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. Works-salvationists typically wrap both faith and works up in a package, then simply stamp "faith" on the package, making no distinction between faith and works. The end result is salvation by faith and works.

If we are saved based on the merits of holy living/works (which could include any number of good works) then just how holy must you be/how many good works does it take? That's not salvation through faith, but salvation by works.

Typical straw man argument from those who see themselves as "holier than thou." The Christian life is not about committing continuous, willful grievous sins as a Christian (1 John 3:7-10) so save your straw man arguments.

That's not what it's about at all, but that is your continued straw man argument. Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

So now you are teaching sinless perfection? This is all about you promoting yourself as "holier than thou" while looking down on and judging others. Particularly those in the OSAS camp. Seeking to live holy according to the Bible is not about "works righteousness." It's also not about the absolute perfection of our walk, but the direction of our walk.

I understand perfectly that the "grace of God" teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age, so save your straw man arguments. It's time for you to come down off your high horse and stop exalting yourself and judging others (just like in the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector - Luke 18:9-14). It's really getting old.

Proverbs 28:13 teaches that we have to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy.
Yet, Belief Alone Proponents say that all one needs is a belief in Jesus to be saved. Some will backpedal and say that believers do not live unholy lives and neither are they unfruitful. But the problems is when the MESSAGE tells people that they are saved by Jesus and nothing else, people can take the words “nothing else” as a license to sin. For do you believe that king David was saved WHILE committed his sins of adultery and murder? Most in your camp do believe he was saved. This means that a believer today can think they can do the same thing. They can just commit sins and be saved.
 
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Albion

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Sure, good works follow the salvation of God's grace.
Then, there you go! :) Misunderstanding corrected.

So if salvation always includes good works then you cannot deny that works plays a part in the salvation process.

So are we talking about something other than "Easy Believism" now?

"Easy Discipleship," perhaps?

Because for sure, you are not even talking about belief, i.e. Faith, when you rephrase your question as you've done here.
 
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and I think you are right about that. No matter what the strange twist may be, someone, somewhere, believes it.

But that isn't the problem with "Easy Believism."

The people who talk, talk, talk about "Easy Believism" want everyone to think it is typical of Christians who believe in the venerable doctrine of Sola Fide, or at least that it's commonplace. Here on this very thread, we've read claims that if a person believes in salvation by Faith, it supposedly raises the issue of "Easy Believism." :doh:

So while it no doubt exists among some very confused people, it is not a consequence of Sola Fide and not at all typical of Protestant Christianity.

But the problem is that sometimes it sounds like the same message. I am talking about the phrase “Easy Believism.” I am talking about the phrase that Christians use in that Jesus paid for all their future sin and they are saved by the finished work of Christ and nothing else. This message can lead others to sin by hearing such words. That's the problem.
 
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Danigt22

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Romans 8:13 gives a person two choices in life. One leads to life and the other to death.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Did Jesus justify sin? No, of course not.
A person who believes does not justify sin because Jesus did not justify sin.



Which translates into opening the door to creating more George Sodini's and Kenneth Nally's.

Check out this article here:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY



Okay. Jesus and His followers gave us many commandments. To obey Jesus and His followers is to obey God or to obey His instructions. Abraham was not obeying any instructions of God by trying to help God with the promise by sleep with his servant.

What else does the Bible say about not inheriting the kingdom?

In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul lists various sins like murder, hate, idolatry, drunkenness, adultery, etc. and say that they which do such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).

In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).

You forgot the full context.
Matthew 19 "24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

No one is just, no one is good. If you seek the law to have grace, you will never have grace. Your own works will make you lose your inheritance. Just as Isaac was brought in faith alone to inherit the kingdom, if you think you need works you will end up being an Ishmael and cast away.
 
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Then, there you go! :) Misunderstanding corrected.



So are we talking about something other than "Easy Believism" now?

"Easy Discipleship," perhaps?

Because for sure, you are not even talking about belief, i.e. Faith, when you rephrase your question as you've done here.

Okay. Forget about Easy Believism for a second. When I listen to the MAIN message from your camp, and those who are in George Sodini's camp, it sounds like the same MAIN MESSAGE initially. Both your camps will say they are saved by trusting in the finished work of Christ and in nothing else. Problem is that why does one obey and the other disobey? Is it a mystery? Is it God saving some by some forced election? No, of course not. The message of telling people that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and nothing else CAN lead people to potentially sin by such very words.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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and I think you are right about that. No matter what the strange twist may be, someone, somewhere, believes it.

But that isn't the problem with "Easy Believism."

The people who talk, talk, talk about "Easy Believism" want everyone to think it is typical of Christians who believe in the venerable doctrine of Sola Fide, or at least that it's commonplace. Here on this very thread, we've read claims that if a person believes in salvation by Faith, it supposedly raises the issue of "Easy Believism." :doh:

So while it no doubt exists among some very confused people, it is not a consequence of Sola Fide and not at all typical of Protestant Christianity.
I agree. I even pointed out that we are saved by grace through faith, not the other way around. Paul even stated in 1 Corinthians 12 that nobody can come to a saving faith without the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit.
 
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In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).

You forgot the full context.
Matthew 19 "24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

No one is just, no one is good. If you seek the law to have grace, you will never have grace. Your own works will make you lose your inheritance. Just as Isaac was brought in faith alone to inherit the kingdom, if you think you need works you will end up being an Ishmael and cast away.

So Matthew 19:24 undoes Matthew 25? Sorry, that just sounds like your not believing Matthew 25. Jesus' point in Matthew 25 was not to show how we cannot keep His commands. If you were to read the end of Matthew 19, the disciples were able to forsake all in order to follow Jesus. Also, Zaccheaus only gave away half of his goods and Jesus said salvation had came to his house that day (See: Luke 19:1-10). The issue is obedience to Christ and not disobedience. Nowhere does God ever condone or reward disobedience, but that is essentially what you are saying.
 
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In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).

You forgot the full context.
Matthew 19 "24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

No one is just, no one is good. If you seek the law to have grace, you will never have grace. Your own works will make you lose your inheritance. Just as Isaac was brought in faith alone to inherit the kingdom, if you think you need works you will end up being an Ishmael and cast away.

Where does Jesus say in the context of Matthew 19, or Matthew 25 or anywhere in the gospel of Matthew that his entire lesson on disobedience and condemnation was to merely show that we are to trust in the finished work of Christ only? What verse and chapter specifically says that? Nowhere. It only exists in your own mind.
 
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In Matthew 25:34, we are told that the believer who helped the poor was told to inherit the kingdom. The believer who refused or disobeyed in helping the poor was told, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...” etc. (Matthew 25:41).

You forgot the full context.
Matthew 19 "24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

No one is just, no one is good. If you seek the law to have grace, you will never have grace. Your own works will make you lose your inheritance. Just as Isaac was brought in faith alone to inherit the kingdom, if you think you need works you will end up being an Ishmael and cast away.

George Sodini committed a bunch of murders, and took his own life and he wrote in his own suicide letter a similar message that you are promoting. George Sodini said Jesus paid for all his sins and his salvation does not rest in his works. That tells me that such a belief is not true because of the bad fruit thereof. Some will disagree, and say that they do not justify such debauchery. But... I believe there are varying degrees of folks justifying sin. Any amount of justifying sin is wrong. See, you basically did not want to address the truth of Matthew 25. You are saying that such words by Jesus no longer apply? That we do not need to love or help the poor as a part of the kingdom? I will trust the words of Jesus and not popular pastors and preachers.
 
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Albion

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Okay. Forget about Easy Believism for a second. When I listen to the MAIN message from your camp...
First, what's "my camp?" Protestantism? Something else?

and those who are in George Sodini's camp
He has nothing to do with it.

it sounds like the same MAIN MESSAGE initially. Both your camps will say they are saved by trusting in the finished work of Christ and in nothing else. Problem is that why does one obey and the other disobey? Is it a mystery?

I've explained this every way from Sunday! You are saying that one saved person performs good works and the other saved person does not. I have explained that you're only talking about one saved person when you do that. That's because the claims of the non-performer show us that he isn't saved after all. He just says or thinks he is. And that is exactly what the Epistle of James is saying to us.
 
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Danigt22

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Where does Jesus say in the context of Matthew 19, or Matthew 25 or anywhere in the gospel of Matthew that his entire lesson on disobedience and condemnation was to merely show that we are to trust in the finished work of Christ only? What verse and chapter specifically says that? Nowhere. It only exists in your own mind.

If you disobey the law you are guilty of all, Jesus points out in Matthew 19:24-26 the guy fail the Tohra, nevertheless he reassure God will honor his faith. For him there is no impossible.

You can also read.
Jhon 6 "9 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
We cant diminish Christ putting power back to the law, when he bruise the sting of death on the cross.
1 Corinthians 15 "55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
 
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First, what's "my camp?" Protestantism? Something else?

The camp that says that a believer who trusts in the finished work of Christ and nothing else will live a holy life (Which is defined differently as per that group and not exactly always as what the Bible teaches). The thing is that George was consistent in his belief (even though we both agree that he was in extreme error). Your belief is not consistent because it says that salvation is solely in God's grace and yet holiness or works, or putting away sin does not play a part in salvation and yet you say that these things will be there after salvation. But even if it is after, they are a part of salvation because it is the result of salvation, right? It's a part of salvation equation.

You said:
He has nothing to do with it.

He does because his main message sounds the same as yours unless we dig a little deeper in regards to your views on sin and Sanctification. The issue is the message itself. The message itself if blindly followed can potentially lead others to sin. George Sodini took the main message that believers are to trust in the finished work of Christ and nothing else literally or to the letter.

You said:
I've explained this every way from Sunday! You are saying that one saved person performs good works and the other saved person does not. I have explained that you're only talking about one saved person when you do that. That's because the claims of the non-performer show us that he isn't saved after all. He just says or thinks he is. And that is exactly what the Epistle of James is saying to us.

Again, your not getting it. The message is the same and yet one is obeying and the other is disobeying. Why? Because one is following their conscience and not the literal message and the other is following the literal message that says the believers trust in the finished work of Christ and nothing else for salvation.
 
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Danigt22

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George Sodini committed a bunch of murders, and took his own life and he wrote in his own suicide letter a similar message that you are promoting. George Sodini said Jesus paid for all his sins and his salvation does not rest in his works. That tells me that such a belief is not true because of the bad fruit thereof. Some will disagree, and say that they do not justify such debauchery. But... I believe there are varying degrees of folks justifying sin. Any amount of justifying sin is wrong. See, you basically did not want to address the truth of Matthew 25. You are saying that such words by Jesus no longer apply? That we do not need to love or help the poor as a part of the kingdom? I will trust the words of Jesus and not popular pastors and preachers.

Sounds like George was Chastise for his bad behavior to the point of killing himself. You can use Samson as an example of him. God honor his faith with a dying wish, our lord is faithful even when we are not. This is how much he loves us and loved Samson. Im pretty sure that George was not even 1/2 of wicked of what Samson was.
 
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Your belief is not consistent because it says that salvation is solely in God's grace and yet holiness or works, or putting away sin does not play a part in salvation and yet you say that these things will be there after salvation.
There is nothing at all "inconsistent" about my explanations...and it's strictly in accord with Scripture.

I do notice that you persist in using the vaguest wording when describing your thinking. For example, always referring to "play a part." Well, what does that mean? Does it mean that one's works are partly responsible for one's salvation? Or does it mean that they'll be in evidence but not part of the reason for the person to be saved? It seems to me that you may be the one who's inconsistent here.
 
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If you disobey the law you are guilty of all, Jesus points out in Matthew 19:24-26 the guy fail the Tohra, nevertheless he reassure God will honor his faith. For him there is no impossible.

You did not read the end of Matthew 19. The disciples forsaken all as a part of following Jesus.
The rich man was not saved because he was not willing to forsake his riches to follow Jesus.
Again, I ask you to quote verses in Matthew 19, or Matthew 25 that says that the whole point Jesus was saying this to the rich man was that he could never obey and that he was simply to trust in the finished work of Christ alone. You will not find such words or anything like it in these chapters. It is your imagination working overtime enforcing these things into the text. Again, read the chapters and you will see nothing of the belief that you are pushing here.

Also, the 613 laws of Moses ended as whole or package deal (not certain individual laws) when Christ died upon the cross. Believers are to obey the commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

You fail to understand that in Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that if any man does not obey that prophet (i.e. JESUS) he will be destroyed. You fail to understand that anyone does not do what Jesus says they are like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

full


You said:
You can also read.
Jhon 6 "9 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
We cant diminish Christ putting power back to the law, when he bruise the sting of death on the cross.

In the King James Bible: John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

You said:
1 Corinthians 15 "55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

You fail to understand that 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (Romans 5:21). We see this explained to us in Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14.
 
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Danigt22

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You did not read the end of Matthew 19. The disciples forsaken all as a part of following Jesus.
The rich man was not saved because he was not willing to forsake his riches to follow Jesus.
Again, I ask you to quote verses in Matthew 19, or Matthew 25 that says that the whole point Jesus was saying this to the rich man was that he could never obey and that he was simply to trust in the finished work of Christ alone. You will not find such words or anything like it these chapters. It is your imagination working overtime enforcing these things into the text. Again, read the chapters and you will see nothing of the belief that you are pushing here.

Also, the 613 laws of Moses ended as whole or package deal (not certain individual laws) when Christ died upon the cross. Believers are to obey the commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

You fail to understand that in Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that if any man does not obey that prophet (i.e. JESUS) he will be destroyed. You fail to understand that anyone does not do what Jesus says if like a fool who build his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

full




In the King James Bible: John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?



You fail to understand that 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (Romans 5:21). We see this explained to us in Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14.

In Matthew 19 you cut the part the lord said. For God there is no impossible. All of our works are filthy rags and have no value in the finish work in the cross. You are not honoring God, but dishonoring him rejecting his grace with works. Tell me then, where in the bible it teaches about losing your salvation when you have faith?
 
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There is nothing at all "inconsistent" about my explanations...and it's strictly in accord with Scripture.

I do notice that you persist in using the vaguest wording when describing your thinking. For example, always referring to "play a part." Well, what does that mean? Does it mean that one's works are partly responsible for one's salvation? Or does it mean that they'll be in evidence but not part of the reason for the person to be saved? It seems to me that you may be the one who's inconsistent here.

Your avoiding the issue that I presented. Both believers who hold to your version of OSAS, and believers who hold to George Sodini's version of OSAS will both say that they are saved by the finished work of Christ and it is nothing that they do. Both will say that future sin is paid for, etc. Same main message and yet different results? It comes down to conscience and not taking such words so literally.
 
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After we are saved by God's grace, God does the good work through us as a part of the salvation process, as well:
  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
You have to twist these verses above in order to make your belief in Belief Alone-ism (Which has led many into sin or treating God's grace into a license to sin) work.
It's actually you who has twisted these verses above in order to promote "type 2 works salvation." Since you fail to interpret scripture within it's intended context and fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine and confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture, you will inevitably misinterpret these passages of scripture above and continue to peddle "performance based works salvation."

As for belief alone/salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone, the Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
 
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