Hello my Arminian Brothers and sisters! I have yet another question for you.

Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them? Don't worry I'll give examples so I'm not as confusing as to what I'm saying: Here's a really famous quote that God said concerning his offspring:



Isaiah 41:8-10

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


Do you see what I am asking? If God took people who chose for salvation "from the ends of the Earth" and "called them from it's farthest corners" how can that be a foreseen declaration of faith? Isn't that what Calvinists and other protestants call "Election?" Weren't we Elected by God? I'll give another example:

1 Peter 2:4-9:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


A few points that Peter was talking about that I'd like to discuss.

1. Peter clearly talks about Jesus Christ as being foreknown and chosen as well. Yet, obviously if we go by your logic of foreknowledge and election isn't it a big duh that God knew that Jesus Christ would not fail in his mission. He's a part of God as well so of course, God can do anything. And of course God has to elect a part of himself for salvation. Jesus cannot and will not ever have to suffer punishment because if he did, than God would have to punish himself.

2. If anybody can come to Christ and choose him for salvation why did Peter say that their rejection of Jesus Christ was "what they were destined for?" Peter's words, not mine. It's not just Calvinists that say that God rejected some people for salvation, scripture says it time and time again. Scripture does say that God hates some people, yet loves and choses others. Scripture does say that Christs death on the cross was also predetermined and predestined by God. Which means the people who would have to be punished for crucifying the son of God (Judas, Pilate, Ciaphas, the People who shouted for Christs Crucifixion ...etc)

Judas didn't lose his salvation. Judas was cursed and was an instrument in God's plan from before he was ever born (see John 17:11-12, Matthew 26:24-25)


I could go on and on. The Bible talks about God's sheep and how they are saved hundreds and hundreds of times, but yet all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody (That doesn't make God not a loving God), that God doesn't choose everybody and chose some people for hell (Doesn't make him an unjust God or a God not worth our worship and praise), that God DID choose an elect people from before the foundation of the world and we as Christians play a role in those people accepting and choosing Christ but, it is also 100% God that does the role in salvation.

Mankind cannot save a person, only God can. Mankind does not pick salvation only God can. How is arminianism not putting glory that should be 100% be in God's hands into mankinds Hands? A endeavor that God himself said was impossible over and over again?

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A_Thinker said:

In thinking about the question for some number of decades now, ... my view has consolidated into something like the following ...

God has chosen ... those who will choose Him.

It's all about relationship.

Before I was married, or had even met my eventual wife, ... I was setting the stage (and/or the stage was being set for me) ... for who she would be.

So, I could speak of my wife ... and of my choosing of her, yet before she appeared upon the scene. And it is clear that our coming together was/is based upon MUTUAL CHOICE. I chose her ... AND she chose me.

Likewise, the Lord has chosen His beloved ... AND His beloved will chose Him. It is the nature of relationship ...

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Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith,

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A_Thinker said:

God has chosen ... those who will choose Him.

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Neostarwcc said:

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


Do you see what I am asking? If God took people who chose for salvation "from the ends of the Earth" and "called them from it's farthest corners" how can that be a foreseen declaration of faith? Isn't that what Calvinists and other protestants call "Election?" Weren't we Elected by God? I'll give another example:

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody (That doesn't make God not a loving God),

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

God doesn't choose everybody and chose some people for hell (Doesn't make him an unjust God or a God not worth our worship and praise),

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

we as Christians play a role in those people accepting and choosing Christ but, it is also 100% God that does the role in salvation.

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them? Don't worry I'll give examples so I'm not as confusing as to what I'm saying: Here's a really famous quote that God said concerning his offspring:



Isaiah 41:8-10

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


Do you see what I am asking? If God took people who chose for salvation "from the ends of the Earth" and "called them from it's farthest corners" how can that be a foreseen declaration of faith? Isn't that what Calvinists and other protestants call "Election?" Weren't we Elected by God? I'll give another example:

1 Peter 2:4-9:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


A few points that Peter was talking about that I'd like to discuss.

1. Peter clearly talks about Jesus Christ as being foreknown and chosen as well. Yet, obviously if we go by your logic of foreknowledge and election isn't it a big duh that God knew that Jesus Christ would not fail in his mission. He's a part of God as well so of course, God can do anything. And of course God has to elect a part of himself for salvation. Jesus cannot and will not ever have to suffer punishment because if he did, than God would have to punish himself.

2. If anybody can come to Christ and choose him for salvation why did Peter say that their rejection of Jesus Christ was "what they were destined for?" Peter's words, not mine. It's not just Calvinists that say that God rejected some people for salvation, scripture says it time and time again. Scripture does say that God hates some people, yet loves and choses others. Scripture does say that Christs death on the cross was also predetermined and predestined by God. Which means the people who would have to be punished for crucifying the son of God (Judas, Pilate, Ciaphas, the People who shouted for Christs Crucifixion ...etc)

Judas didn't lose his salvation. Judas was cursed and was an instrument in God's plan from before he was ever born (see John 17:11-12, Matthew 26:24-25)


I could go on and on. The Bible talks about God's sheep and how they are saved hundreds and hundreds of times, but yet all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody (That doesn't make God not a loving God), that God doesn't choose everybody and chose some people for hell (Doesn't make him an unjust God or a God not worth our worship and praise), that God DID choose an elect people from before the foundation of the world and we as Christians play a role in those people accepting and choosing Christ but, it is also 100% God that does the role in salvation.

Mankind cannot save a person, only God can. Mankind does not pick salvation only God can. How is arminianism not putting glory that should be 100% be in God's hands into mankinds Hands? A endeavor that God himself said was impossible over and over again?

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them? Don't worry I'll give examples so I'm not as confusing as to what I'm saying: Here's a really famous quote that God said concerning his offspring:



Isaiah 41:8-10

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


Do you see what I am asking? If God took people who chose for salvation "from the ends of the Earth" and "called them from it's farthest corners" how can that be a foreseen declaration of faith? Isn't that what Calvinists and other protestants call "Election?" Weren't we Elected by God? I'll give another example:

1 Peter 2:4-9:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


A few points that Peter was talking about that I'd like to discuss.

1. Peter clearly talks about Jesus Christ as being foreknown and chosen as well. Yet, obviously if we go by your logic of foreknowledge and election isn't it a big duh that God knew that Jesus Christ would not fail in his mission. He's a part of God as well so of course, God can do anything. And of course God has to elect a part of himself for salvation. Jesus cannot and will not ever have to suffer punishment because if he did, than God would have to punish himself.

2. If anybody can come to Christ and choose him for salvation why did Peter say that their rejection of Jesus Christ was "what they were destined for?" Peter's words, not mine. It's not just Calvinists that say that God rejected some people for salvation, scripture says it time and time again. Scripture does say that God hates some people, yet loves and choses others. Scripture does say that Christs death on the cross was also predetermined and predestined by God. Which means the people who would have to be punished for crucifying the son of God (Judas, Pilate, Ciaphas, the People who shouted for Christs Crucifixion ...etc)

Judas didn't lose his salvation. Judas was cursed and was an instrument in God's plan from before he was ever born (see John 17:11-12, Matthew 26:24-25)


I could go on and on. The Bible talks about God's sheep and how they are saved hundreds and hundreds of times, but yet all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody (That doesn't make God not a loving God), that God doesn't choose everybody and chose some people for hell (Doesn't make him an unjust God or a God not worth our worship and praise), that God DID choose an elect people from before the foundation of the world and we as Christians play a role in those people accepting and choosing Christ but, it is also 100% God that does the role in salvation.

Mankind cannot save a person, only God can. Mankind does not pick salvation only God can. How is arminianism not putting glory that should be 100% be in God's hands into mankinds Hands? A endeavor that God himself said was impossible over and over again?

Click to expand...

All Glory To God said:

Low view of God there. Comparing the creator to human relationships.

Click to expand...

Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them? Don't worry I'll give examples so I'm not as confusing as to what I'm saying: Here's a really famous quote that God said concerning his offspring:



Isaiah 41:8-10

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


Do you see what I am asking? If God took people who chose for salvation "from the ends of the Earth" and "called them from it's farthest corners" how can that be a foreseen declaration of faith? Isn't that what Calvinists and other protestants call "Election?" Weren't we Elected by God? I'll give another example:

1 Peter 2:4-9:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


A few points that Peter was talking about that I'd like to discuss.

1. Peter clearly talks about Jesus Christ as being foreknown and chosen as well. Yet, obviously if we go by your logic of foreknowledge and election isn't it a big duh that God knew that Jesus Christ would not fail in his mission. He's a part of God as well so of course, God can do anything. And of course God has to elect a part of himself for salvation. Jesus cannot and will not ever have to suffer punishment because if he did, than God would have to punish himself.

2. If anybody can come to Christ and choose him for salvation why did Peter say that their rejection of Jesus Christ was "what they were destined for?" Peter's words, not mine. It's not just Calvinists that say that God rejected some people for salvation, scripture says it time and time again. Scripture does say that God hates some people, yet loves and choses others. Scripture does say that Christs death on the cross was also predetermined and predestined by God. Which means the people who would have to be punished for crucifying the son of God (Judas, Pilate, Ciaphas, the People who shouted for Christs Crucifixion ...etc)

Judas didn't lose his salvation. Judas was cursed and was an instrument in God's plan from before he was ever born (see John 17:11-12, Matthew 26:24-25)


I could go on and on. The Bible talks about God's sheep and how they are saved hundreds and hundreds of times, but yet all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody (That doesn't make God not a loving God), that God doesn't choose everybody and chose some people for hell (Doesn't make him an unjust God or a God not worth our worship and praise), that God DID choose an elect people from before the foundation of the world and we as Christians play a role in those people accepting and choosing Christ but, it is also 100% God that does the role in salvation.

Mankind cannot save a person, only God can. Mankind does not pick salvation only God can. How is arminianism not putting glory that should be 100% be in God's hands into mankinds Hands? A endeavor that God himself said was impossible over and over again?

Click to expand...

-57 said:

What would cause one to choose God (Jesus) and another to not choose?

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Neostarwcc said:

... all arminians do is ignore the clear evidence on paper that God does not love everybody ...

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A_Thinker said:

God, Himself, ... does the same ... all through the scriptures ....

Ephesians 5

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Matthew 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

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A_Thinker said:

Matthew 5

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

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A_Thinker said:

It is the outworking of the plan of God that some would choose Him ... and some would not (via the mechanism of His gift of choice) ....

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

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All Glory To God said:

I don't think the scripture means the same thing you do. The way you framed your wife and husband scenario implied God was subject to the same set of principles as a courting couple, and he is not. He is also not part of his creation so a false comparision.

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All Glory To God said:

He was talking about who God loves, you are talking about who Christians should love.

Show us in scripture where God loves everyone.

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Neostarwcc said:

If God only chose those who he foresaw that they had faith, why whenever he talks about his children does he refer to them as if he chose them?...

....God does not love everybody ...

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