Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

jerry kelso

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I have showed you many. You just dismiss them because they expose Pretrib.

Jesus gathers all His elect together at His one and only coming and our gathering together unto Him. Contrary to what you impute into 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Please notice the highlighted blue that you have ducked around throughout this thread.

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

The day of the Lord is near, it is approaching, it is at hand.

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together[or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together[or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Revelation 16:12-20 the opposite occurs: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second coming.

If Revelation 16:15-20 is the middle of the so-called Pretrib 7-year tribulation, after the Pretrib rapture (Revelation 4:1), and before the Pretrib 3rd coming (Revelation 19) why is Jesus still promising to come as a thief and exhorting His Church to be watchful?

sovereign grace,

Do you believe Christ comes back in a a post trib rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15 at the 7th trumpet? Jerrykelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereign grace,

Do you believe Christ comes back in a a post trib rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15 at the 7th trumpet? Jerrykelso

Of course! That is the one-and-only future coming of Christ.
 
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sovereigngrace

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baberean2,

1. The 7th trump is never referred to as
the last trump.

2. The 7th trumpet is in the middle of the tribulation is not one day but days Revelation 10:7; But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of Hod should be finished as he hath declared to his servants and prophets.
The mystery of God was not the second coming for the day of the Lord all Jews understood and even New Testament Christians.
The 7th trumpet is from Revelation 11:15-16:1-2, the Wrath of God.

3. The Corinthian church would know nothing about the 7 trumpets of Revelation because Paul was dead and gone before John ever had the vision on Patmos. But they would have understood the trumpets of the Jewish feasts.

4. So you have no ground to stand on with your futile appearances and wrong perception. Once again it is about context. Jerrykelso

The seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for what I am presenting to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. The last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 correlates in every detail with the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming. Firstly, we can see the angel comes clothed with a cloud. Significantly, the Lord prophesied of His return, “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” Please refer also to Mark 14:61-62, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7).

Secondly, the angel comes crowned with a rainbow. The rainbow crowned upon this great angel’s head reminds us that we serve a mighty covenant keeping God. It is clearly a marvellous symbol of providential nature of God and His faithfulness. None but Christ would be qualified to adorn such a symbol, being the bodily manifestation of the living holy God. We see the same symbolic rainbow surrounding Christ when John was caught up in the Spirit into heaven in Revelation 4 to receive the revelation about the Church and the end times. John explicitly says, “there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald” (v3).

Thirdly, the angel's face shines as sun. Malachi 4:2 confirms our Lord is “the sun of righteousness.” Fourthly, the angel comes with fire. Jesus said, in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” This agrees with Revelation 19, 2 Peter 3 and countless other similar texts that show this fiery end to the tribulation period. Finally, the angel cries “with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth” Christ is symbolically likened unto a Lion in Revelation 5. He is called “the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David.”

It seems quite evident that we are looking at the one and only last trump which sounds at Christ solitary future Coming, which witnesses the end of the tribulation. This is in stark contrast to the weak claims made by our Pretrib brethren over the years that Revelation 4:1 is a record of a secret rapture, when it is in fact a simple record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago.

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such concrete evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the pretribulationist doctrine. In doing so they oppose the clear truth of God’s Word rather than those who firmly hold the truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Notably, the “wrath of God” here is shown to “come” (erchomai Strong’s 2064) at the last trumpet. This indeed is the day of the Lord. This is the time when the dead are finally judged. It is the event when the “saints” receive their “reward” and correspondingly the ungodly it says God will “destroy.” Revelation 11:18 basically describes the judgment that accompanies the final or last trumpet.

Passage after passage knits perfectly together showing that the tribulation period ends with the one final climactic future Coming of Christ. The righteous are rescued immediately before God’s wrath is poured out upon all those left behind.

Whilst this is a glorious day for God’s elect it will be a day of ultimate terror for the wicked when they realise that they have missed God final opportunity and the door of grace has been slammed in their face forever.
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. The 7th trump is never referred to as
the last trump.

2. The 7th trumpet is in the middle of the tribulation is not one day but days Revelation 10:7; But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of Hod should be finished as he hath declared to his servants and prophets.
The mystery of God was not the second coming for the day of the Lord all Jews understood and even New Testament Christians.
The 7th trumpet is from Revelation 11:15-16:1-2, the Wrath of God.

3. The Corinthian church would know nothing about the 7 trumpets of Revelation because Paul was dead and gone before John ever had the vision on Patmos. But they would have understood the trumpets of the Jewish feasts.

4. So you have no ground to stand on with your futile appearances and wrong perception. Once again it is about context. Jerrykelso


1. If the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation, please show us the 8th trumpet.

2. Because the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, Revelation 11:15-18 is the Second Coming.
The "mystery" in the Book of Ephesians is the Church.

3. Both Paul and John wrote under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, who stands outside of time and space.

4. A Dispensationalist talking about context, is like a fish talking about how to fly an airplane.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Of course! That is the one-and-only future coming of Christ.

sovereign grace,

1. The 7th trumpet is never called the last trump.
The church of Corinth knew nothing about the seven trumpets for Paul was dead and gone before John wrote Revelation.
They would have known about the Day of the Lord.
The 7th trumpet is not the day of the Lord for it is more than one day
Revelation 10:7. It is also in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:15-16:1-2.
The mystery of God is said to be the second coming but the problem with that is that every one knew what the day of the Lord was.
So the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials are consecutive and most everything works in and around them.
In any case, the second coming of Christ concerning the trumpets are associated with the feast trumpets not the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Jerrykelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereign grace,

1. The 7th trumpet is never called the last trump.
The church of Corinth knew nothing about the seven trumpets for Paul was dead and gone before John wrote Revelation.
They would have known about the Day of the Lord.
The 7th trumpet is not the day of the Lord for it is more than one day
Revelation 10:7. It is also in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:15-16:1-2.
The mystery of God is said to be the second coming but the problem with that is that every one knew what the day of the Lord was.
So the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials are consecutive and most everything works in and around them.
In any case, the second coming of Christ concerning the trumpets are associated with the feast trumpets not the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Jerrykelso

Stop avoiding the issue. Is the 7th trumpet the last of 7, yes or no? The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials all conclude at the second coming. They are recaps.
 
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jerry kelso

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1. If the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation, please show us the 8th trumpet.

2. Because the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, Revelation 11:15-18 is the Second Coming.
The "mystery" in the Book of Ephesians is the Church.

3. Both Paul and John wrote under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, who stands outside of time and space.

4. A Dispensationalist talking about context, is like a fish talking about how to fly an airplane.

.

baberean2,

1. It is the last trumpet of the trumpets under the Wrath of the Lamb.
Besides, the rapture is pre-trib, and there are trumpets that are connected with the feasts.

2. I already told you the seals, trumpets and the vials are consecutive.

3. The mystery of the church has nothing to do with the mystery in Revelation 10 that happens in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 12. The church had already been revealed in Paul’s day not John’s.

4. Paul and John did write under the influence and anointing of the same Holy Spirit, but you are conflating the issue and misrepresenting the context.
Paul was preaching the mystery of resurrection of the rapture of the living and dead believers which he taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. It will be in a twinkling of an eye.
The 2nd coming is like a thief in the night. Revelation 19 shows armies coming out of Heaven to do Battle at Armageddon not resurrect believers up to the clouds.
Well, this fish just told you the good news of Biblical truth that flies far higher than any airplane ✈️ straight into Heaven. Jerrykelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Stop avoiding the issue. Is the 7th trumpet the last of 7, yes or no? The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials all conclude at the second coming. They are recaps.

sovereign grace,

1. It is the last of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. I already told you that.
The 2nd coming is associated with the the trumpets of the feast.

2. They are not recaps and there is no scriptural proof for that.
Jerrykelso
 
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BABerean2

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They are not recaps and there is no scriptural proof for that.



Then how do you explain the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18?


.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereign grace,

1. It is the last of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. I already told you that.
The 2nd coming is associated with the the trumpets of the feast.

2. They are not recaps and there is no scriptural proof for that.
Jerrykelso

The recaps absolutely and totally expose the Pretrib chronological theory. What is more your supposed rapture passage in Rev 4:1 (that you once admitted was not a rapture passage) has suddenly become once again. How convenient. The only problem is: it teaches nothing about your secret rapture. That is a man-made invention.

You can't even provide any evidence of the following:
  • Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1?
  • Where is your 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19?
  • You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19. Can you furnish me with any mention of the Church there?
  • Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation 19?
Last trumpet

The 7 trumpets say what the rest of Scripture says that the coming of Christ is the end. You have no answer to that. It totally forbids Pretrib.

The sound of the trumpet ushers in the one final future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Repeated Scripture shows it to be "the end"! It is a time when God raises all the righteous and the wicked. It is a time when He judges mankind. Whilst Matthew 24, Mark 13:24-27, 31-32, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15 and the book of Revelation clearly and expressly refer to the coming of Christ, there is no seven-year tribulation or third coming of Christ mentioned or intimated anywhere in these passages, or elsewhere in Scripture. Rather, Scripture shows us that Christ comes “with” and “for” His elect (the redeemed of God) at His one final Coming.

Let us look at the evidence!

Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Mark 13:24-27, 31-32

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53

What is more, not only does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-30 correlate, but we get further detail in 1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53. There Paul says of this final Coming, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming (parousia). Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (katargeésee or abolished) all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This text shows us the catching away of the saints at the second coming. It also shows us that this is indeed the end.

Scripture complementing Scripture is one of the great proofs of truth and means of enlightenment. That is what we are looking at when it comes to the trumpet sound that accompanies the Coming of Christ.

Here again we see the two distinct groups of redeemed mentioned who will be finally unified at Christ’s one final Coming. When Paul says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” he is saying that the dead in Christ will be resurrected with new bodies but the live in Christ will be instantly “changed.” Those that are alive do not need resurrected as they don’t die. They just need transformed from mortality to immortality. Paul explains it as: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The “dead in Christ” are gathered from “one end of heaven to the other” and come with Christ to be united with their new spiritual bodies. The ‘live in Christ’ on the other hand are gathered together from “the four winds” of earth and are caught up together with them after instantly receiving their new bodies. Collectively the redeemed are made one in the act of glorification. This ushers in the end.

The word rendered "last" in last trump" is the Greek word eschatos meaning end, last, farthest or final. This negates the Pretrib idea of a further trumpet seven yrs later. We are therefore looking at the final trumpet sound at the one final Coming of Christ. What is more, by clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages that refer to the coming of Christ with the trumpet of God. For them to do otherwise would totally demolish their doctrine.

This is clear corroboration, something that Pretrib and Premil know nothing about.
 
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Timtofly

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Stop avoiding the issue. Is the 7th trumpet the last of 7, yes or no? The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials all conclude at the second coming. They are recaps.
What about the 7 Thunders? That would make 8 recaps according to your recap theory.

The 7 Thunders happen between the 6th Trumpet and the 7th Trumpet. Is that a recap in a recap? The 7 vials are only on those who live at the end of Satan's 3.5 years. Or is that 42 months or 1260 days just a well known saying for an indefinite period of time. Has the whole of the last 1990 years been Satan's 3.5 (indefinite time) recap of being in control that ran concurrent with Satan’s 1000 (indefinite time) recap of Satan also bound at the same time as being in control? The 7 vials ended Satan's period of control leading up to the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 20 ending His time of not being in control leading up to the battle of Gog and Megog. Although one ended in fire, the other ended in blood and gore for the birds to feast on. Why do these 2 recaps contradict each other?
 
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Timtofly

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Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.
This is talking about Revelation 6 and the 6th seal. That is the beginning of Jesus Christ on earth. Do you think the coming of the Lamb and God on the throne is only symbolic? It is symbolic of a literal event that changes the way even creation is observed. Literally, there will be no more observable universe. No more stars in the sky. The sun and moon will no longer be seen as a star and a giant satellite revolving around the earth. The land as we know it will drastically change and be re-arranged. That is the beginning of humanity's trouble, not the end. Satan is not mentioned once in the seals. If, and a big if, the seals showed church history, it is the end of the church. Meaning the church ends before the other judgments that include an abyss or Satanic activity.

This recap did not extend into the future as the rest of your imaginary recaps. Thus proving a pre-trib, not proving a later ending of the church. The church is not in any of the other 5 recaps. Only the actual chapters to the churches and the 7 seals can involve the church. That is it, no more church recaps. Now the harlot is mentioned, but the harlot is not the church for very many obvious reasons. Obviously the harlot church does endure to the end and are destroyed by God, even though they, who were involved in her, did many things in Jesus' name, even calling Him Lord.

I would like to point out that the dead in Christ were gathered from the four corners of heaven. Paradise is the pre New Jerusalem that is 4 square. Paradise as in the 4 corners of heaven is where the dead in Christ are. They are not in physical graves on earth. Jesus never taught a bodily resurrection of the church in the last days of His Second Coming. The last Day of the OT Resurrection was on the Cross. Matthew 27 covers that last day general bodily resurrection. The OT believers were no longer in sheol or in the ground. Now they are in Paradise, the 4 corners of heaven. The winds being the description of the 4 corners. Revelation 7:1
"After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree."

This also puts Paul's rapture before the evil and not post evil. The 7th seal if any would cover the evil end in your alleged recap. In doing math, 6 still comes before 7 in chronological order. So your 7th seal is the end, not the 6th seal. Now explain what happens in the 7th seal. Also explain how Matthew is even talking about the other 5 recaps where the church is not mentioned. Pre-trib has nothing to do with theology. At least not until some people made a big issue out of it and claimed doctrinal superiority.

These passages cannot refute pre-trib, cause they do not cover the trib at all. Paul does not cover the trib, Jesus in this passage does not cover the trib, and the 6 seals may not cover the trib. Is the church persecuted and martyred daily even as we freely exchange thoughts hour after hour? "The tribulation of those days" cannot even be symbolic of the wrath of God, or any of the coming judgments, which you extend over the church age, yourself. The church faces tribulation non stop. Maybe not in your city, but read the 4th seal and put it into historical context, or read it in chronological order with the 5th and 6th seal. But making up stories and saying the seals are not chronological makes no sense period.

BTW, Does Jesus and the NT authors quote the OT chapter and verse? Or did the audience know their Scriptures and did not need others to be so dogmatic in their use of God’s Word? If those in the 1st century knew the OT by heart, what is this excuse that some today cannot understand scriptural points, with being taken to a library and source quoted?
 
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Timtofly

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Exactly. They have no answer.
How do you explain John was quoting Psalm 2?

1 Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai
and his anointed.
3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.
6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him.
 
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sovereigngrace

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How do you explain John was quoting Psalm 2?

1 Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai
and his anointed.
3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.
6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Paul explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3] (Acts 13:32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave
 
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jerry kelso

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Then how do you explain the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18?


.

baberean2,

1. Revelation 11:15; the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

.[/QUOTE]

1. I have already shown the difference of Paul’s rapture in 1 Corinthians 15 and the second coming Revelation 19.

2. I have already shown that the second coming could not happen in the the 7th trumpet for it is days long and longer Revelation 10:7.

3. These voices are in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation in anticipation of the great confrontation between Christ and Satan. This is not fulfilled till Revelation 19:11-21.

4. The nations were angry and thy wrath is come which is the Wrath of God Revelation 16:1.
Time of the dead that they should be judged were those who die at Armageddon Revelation 19:18-21.
Rewards to servants and prophets and saints will be in the second half of the tribulation in Heaven not on earth.
Those who destroy the earth was prophetic to the second coming. Jerrykelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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baberean2,

1. Revelation 11:15; the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

.

1. I have already shown the difference of Paul’s rapture in 1 Corinthians 15 and the second coming Revelation 19.

2. I have already shown that the second coming could not happen in the the 7th trumpet for it is days long and longer Revelation 10:7.

3. These voices are in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation in anticipation of the great confrontation between Christ and Satan. This is not fulfilled till Revelation 19:11-21.

4. The nations were angry and thy wrath is come which is the Wrath of God Revelation 16:1.
Time of the dead that they should be judged were those who die at Armageddon Revelation 19:18-21.
Rewards to servants and prophets and saints will be in the second half of the tribulation in Heaven not on earth.
Those who destroy the earth was prophetic to the second coming. Jerrykelso

You have shown nothing apart from the fact you are avoiding every point and Scripture Baberean has submitted to you. The seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for what I am presenting to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. The last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 correlates in every detail with the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming. Firstly, we can see the angel comes clothed with a cloud. Significantly, the Lord prophesied of His return, “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” Please refer also to Mark 14:61-62, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7).

Secondly, the angel comes crowned with a rainbow. The rainbow crowned upon this great angel’s head reminds us that we serve a mighty covenant keeping God. It is clearly a marvellous symbol of providential nature of God and His faithfulness. None but Christ would be qualified to adorn such a symbol, being the bodily manifestation of the living holy God. We see the same symbolic rainbow surrounding Christ when John was caught up in the Spirit into heaven in Revelation 4 to receive the revelation about the Church and the end times. John explicitly says, “there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald” (v3).

Thirdly, the angel's face shines as sun. Malachi 4:2 confirms our Lord is “the sun of righteousness.” Fourthly, the angel comes with fire. Jesus said, in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” This agrees with Revelation 19, 2 Peter 3 and countless other similar texts that show this fiery end to the tribulation period. Finally, the angel cries “with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth” Christ is symbolically likened unto a Lion in Revelation 5. He is called “the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David.”

It seems quite evident that we are looking at the one and only last trump which sounds at Christ solitary future Coming, which witnesses the end of the tribulation. This is in stark contrast to the weak claims made by our Pretrib brethren over the years that Revelation 4:1 is a record of a secret rapture, when it is in fact a simple record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago.

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such concrete evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the pretribulationist doctrine. In doing so they oppose the clear truth of God’s Word rather than those who firmly hold the truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Notably, the “wrath of God” here is shown to “come” (erchomai Strong’s 2064) at the last trumpet. This indeed is the day of the Lord. This is the time when the dead are finally judged. It is the event when the “saints” receive their “reward” and correspondingly the ungodly it says God will “destroy.” Revelation 11:18 basically describes the judgment that accompanies the final or last trumpet.

Passage after passage knits perfectly together showing that the tribulation period ends with the one final climactic future Coming of Christ. The righteous are rescued immediately before God’s wrath is poured out upon all those left behind.

Whilst this is a glorious day for God’s elect it will be a day of ultimate terror for the wicked when they realise that they have missed God final opportunity and the door of grace has been slammed in their face forever.
 
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Timtofly

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Paul explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3] (Acts 13:32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave
This does not explain the timing of Revelation with the fulfillment of a Psalm of David. There is no resurrection in Revelation 11, but 2 literal humans, and is was to leave earth, not rule over the earth. Nor was it a time of reward for the physically dead. The 7th Trumpet was the end of Jesus Christ's final harvest of souls out of the physical body born from Adam's punishment of disobedience. It was not a resurrection, but the removal of many souls before Satan ruled for 3.5 years. And the only reason why Satan is allowed is because there are still souls left that could not be chosen or saved. The next 3.5 years is salvation by having one's head chopped off, and only 2, a literal 2, not symbolic of "many" witnesses live who do not get their heads chopped off, but at the end, they lay physically dead for only 3.5 days and then they get up and ascend to heaven. How does Revelation 11, and the blowing of the 7th Trumpet bringing an end to sinful humanity have anything to do with the church?
 
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Timtofly

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You have shown nothing apart from the fact you are avoiding every point and Scripture Baberean has submitted to you. The seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for what I am presenting to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. The last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 correlates in every detail with the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming. Firstly, we can see the angel comes clothed with a cloud. Significantly, the Lord prophesied of His return, “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” Please refer also to Mark 14:61-62, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7).

Secondly, the angel comes crowned with a rainbow. The rainbow crowned upon this great angel’s head reminds us that we serve a mighty covenant keeping God. It is clearly a marvellous symbol of providential nature of God and His faithfulness. None but Christ would be qualified to adorn such a symbol, being the bodily manifestation of the living holy God. We see the same symbolic rainbow surrounding Christ when John was caught up in the Spirit into heaven in Revelation 4 to receive the revelation about the Church and the end times. John explicitly says, “there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald” (v3).

Thirdly, the angel's face shines as sun. Malachi 4:2 confirms our Lord is “the sun of righteousness.” Fourthly, the angel comes with fire. Jesus said, in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” This agrees with Revelation 19, 2 Peter 3 and countless other similar texts that show this fiery end to the tribulation period. Finally, the angel cries “with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth” Christ is symbolically likened unto a Lion in Revelation 5. He is called “the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David.”

It seems quite evident that we are looking at the one and only last trump which sounds at Christ solitary future Coming, which witnesses the end of the tribulation. This is in stark contrast to the weak claims made by our Pretrib brethren over the years that Revelation 4:1 is a record of a secret rapture, when it is in fact a simple record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago.

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such concrete evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the pretribulationist doctrine. In doing so they oppose the clear truth of God’s Word rather than those who firmly hold the truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Notably, the “wrath of God” here is shown to “come” (erchomai Strong’s 2064) at the last trumpet. This indeed is the day of the Lord. This is the time when the dead are finally judged. It is the event when the “saints” receive their “reward” and correspondingly the ungodly it says God will “destroy.” Revelation 11:18 basically describes the judgment that accompanies the final or last trumpet.

Passage after passage knits perfectly together showing that the tribulation period ends with the one final climactic future Coming of Christ. The righteous are rescued immediately before God’s wrath is poured out upon all those left behind.

Whilst this is a glorious day for God’s elect it will be a day of ultimate terror for the wicked when they realise that they have missed God final opportunity and the door of grace has been slammed in their face forever.

How do you fit Satan's 42 months, 1260 days on earth into this scenario?
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. Revelation 11:15; the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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1. I have already shown the difference of Paul’s rapture in 1 Corinthians 15 and the second coming Revelation 19.

2. I have already shown that the second coming could not happen in the the 7th trumpet for it is days long and longer Revelation 10:7.

3. These voices are in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation in anticipation of the great confrontation between Christ and Satan. This is not fulfilled till Revelation 19:11-21.

4. The nations were angry and thy wrath is come which is the Wrath of God Revelation 16:1.
Time of the dead that they should be judged were those who die at Armageddon Revelation 19:18-21.
Rewards to servants and prophets and saints will be in the second half of the tribulation in Heaven not on earth.
Those who destroy the earth was prophetic to the second coming. Jerrykelso[/QUOTE]

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Jerry,

You seem to be attempting to show the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, in an attempt to make your Two Peoples of God/ Two kingdoms of God doctrine work.


Are there Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation?


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".


.
 
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