Protestantism has done more harm than good.

GenemZ · Sep 20, 2020

truefiction1 said:
If the Mother of God had other living sons, then Jewish social custom of the day would have required Mary to be placed in the care of one of her other biological sons. Thus, it's pretty evident that she didn't have any other biological sons

Know the Word.

Better know it very well!

For, if we fail to do so?

We'll end up caught, and embarrassed as h-ll! :angel:

Look here.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and
brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone
told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside,
wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my
brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my
mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of
my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and
mother.” Mat 12:46-50

So? Let's see.. If your mother is a believer? And, my mother, as well?

And, they both do the will of God for their life?

These mothers all are the mothers of God. (according to your illogical conclusion, they are!)

grace and His peace........

truefiction1 · Sep 20, 2020

Albion said:
And imagining was the main part of your contention, as you explained it in that post. It would be appropriate if Mary were this or that, in your way of looking at the matter, so you imagine that it must have happened.

If we were to take everything that Scripture teaches about her under our consideration, the only conclusion that could be reached is that it tells an almost surprising story of Mary NOT being special, or treated in any special way by her son, except for that one monumental fact of her having been chosen to give birth to the Savior.

All the rest--eternal virginity, mother of us all, never committed a sin, was assumed bodily into heaven, etc.--is the account of humans having elaborated upon her story in order to honor her. It's not surprising that such a thing might have happened; we do it with political figures all the time and, in fact, have an expression for it--"bigger than life."

Yeh. That sort of thing.

I'm not imagining anything at all, actually, anymore than any of my brothers and sisters have "imagined" what has truly occurred in God's responses to her intercessory prayers in our behalf. The Holy Spirit Himself bears witness to all such things that are true in regards the Mother of God the Word, even as He bears witness in our hearts that we are the children of our Father in Heaven. My experience won't convince anyone, I realize, but that isn't a primary concern.

truefiction1 · Sep 20, 2020

genez said:
Know the Word.

Better know it very well!

For, if we fail to do so?

We'll end up caught, and embarrassed as h-ll!

Look here.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and
brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone
told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside,
wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my
brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my
mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of
my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and
mother.” Mat 12:46-50

So? Let's see.. If your mother is a believer? And, my mother, as well?

And, they both do the will of God for their life?

These mothers all are the mothers of God. (according to your illogical conclusion, they are!)

grace and His peace........

Thank you, we also read this lesson from the Gospel aloud in our Liturgy of the Word. But this teaching of Christ by no means diminishes who the Theotokos is or the nature unique of her holiness. Why don't you contemplate the veneration of her by the righteous Elizabeth, mother of the holy Forerunner and Baptist John? Elizabeth said, in the Holy Spirit, "Blessed are you among women". But you, from your own unspiritual conceptualizations, say "the Mother of God the Word is by no means "blessed among women", but rather, is no more blessed than any other woman who believes in and follows Jesus. Please tell me: ought I to believe you, or ought I to believe one who is recorded in the Gospel of Luke to have said in the Holy Spirit that Mary it "blessed among women", and that it was an honor to receive visitation by the "Mother of my Lord"? Please contemplate and question your own underlying spirit to be making such claims. That goes for all of you. Thank you.

Albion · Sep 20, 2020

truefiction1 said:
I'm not imagining anything at all, actually, anymore than any of my brothers and sisters have "imagined" what has truly occurred in God's responses to her intercessory prayers in our behalf.

I have to disagree. You have your imagination--or that of other people--to thank for there being such ideas as the bodily assumption of Mary, she being ever-virgin or eternally sinless, etc.

None of that is substantiated by anything, but it would be "fitting" if it were true, say those believers who want such things to be true and who think them appropriate. They want to honor Mary and think she deserves such honors, so....

truefiction1 · Sep 20, 2020

Albion said:
I have to disagree. You have your imagination--or that of other people--to thank for there being such ideas as the bodily assumption of Mary, she being ever-virgin or eternally sinless, etc.

None of that is substantiated by anything, but it would be "fitting" if it were true, say those believers who want such things to be true and who think them appropriate. They want to honor Mary and think she deserves such honors, so....

The things Believed in the Church are in fact substantiated, being born witness to by the Living and powerful testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself. That you and others have not seen His power working in ways that bear witness to the truth with regards to the role of the Theotokos in our lives is for reasons that I'm not privy to knowing.

a-lily-of-peace · Sep 20, 2020

Albion said:
I have to disagree. You have your imagination--or that of other people--to thank for there being such ideas as the bodily assumption of Mary, she being ever-virgin or eternally sinless, etc.

None of that is substantiated by anything, but it would be "fitting" if it were true, say those believers who want such things to be true and who think them appropriate. They want to honor Mary and think she deserves such honors, so....

I’m not Catholic or Orthodox, the church I attend is actually very anti-those, and my understanding of it is from seeing what Jesus did by “adopting” his disciple to his mother as an act of love and charity which makes perfect sense if Mary had no other natural born son and much less sense in any other light.

It wasn’t something I read in a commentary (at least not that I consciously remember) but rather when walking to church, my husband mentioned that he had been talking to a Catholic who believed Mary was a virgin eternally, and that verse instantly came to my mind to support it. Even when I was typing it here the psalm came to mind for the first time as pointing to who God is.

If it is my imagination I accept that I don’t have anywhere near a perfect understanding but it’s still substantiated by application of scriptural principles to the interpretation of the text and not in any way linked to anything I personally feel a need to believe or anything I’ve been traditionally taught.

Albion · Sep 20, 2020

truefiction1 said:
The things Believed in the Church are in fact substantiated, being born witness to by the Living and powerful testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Okay.

Albion · Sep 20, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
I’m not Catholic or Orthodox, the church I attend is actually very anti-those, and my understanding of it is from seeing what Jesus did by “adopting” his disciple to his mother as an act of love and charity which makes perfect sense if Mary had no other natural born son and much less sense in any other light.

It wasn’t something I read in a commentary (at least not that I consciously remember) but rather when walking to church, my husband mentioned that he had been talking to a Catholic who believed Mary was a virgin eternally, and that verse instantly came to my mind to support it.

Why would that verse support it?

If it is my imagination I accept that I don’t have anywhere near a perfect understanding but it’s still substantiated by application of scriptural principles to the interpretation of the text

How 'substantiated?' I'm not seeing how the idea of John being either a natural son--or no relation at all--is resolved by what Jesus said on the cross at this point.

a-lily-of-peace · Sep 20, 2020

Albion said:
Why would that verse support it?

How 'substantiated?' I'm not seeing how the idea of John being either a natural son--or no relation at all--is resolved by what Jesus said on the cross at this point.

If Mary had a natural son, why would she not have gone to live with him? It is a commandment given through Moses (Exodus 20:12) and reinforced through what the Lord Jesus Christ taught on earth (Matthew 15:5-6) as well as what the Apostle Paul wrote (1 Timothy 5:8) which could even point to the same principle given by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

James and Jude were not unbelievers. They would have been under the commandment of the law at the time, and Paul's writing would have applied to them as well. Seeing what Jesus did in light of him being the defender of widows, who sets the solitary in families (Psalm 68:5-6) and knowing this took place before the resurrection, before the baptism in the Holy Spirit, really evokes the sense that he would not leave this woman alone, a widow with no son, and that his beloved disciple was the one called to do his will.

Vanellus · Sep 20, 2020

These threads attacking Protestantism for believing so many different things are quite common. What is less common is a careful consideration of what those differences actually are and what are the similarities between various Protestant churches

If you reject the Protestant/Catholic dichotomy (remember the Eastern Orthodox churches as well) and consider the RCC as just another church or denomination, then this anti-Protestant argument disappears trivially.

It is also the case that RCC doctrine has changed a lot over its history so one could argue there have been many different Catholic churches over time.

GenemZ · Sep 20, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Thank you, we also read this lesson from the Gospel aloud in our Liturgy of the Word. But this teaching of Christ by no means diminishes who the Theotokos is or the nature unique of her holiness. Why don't you contemplate the veneration of her by the righteous Elizabeth, mother of the holy Forerunner and Baptist John? Elizabeth said, in the Holy Spirit, "Blessed are you among women". But you, from your own unspiritual conceptualizations, say "the Mother of God the Word is by no means "blessed among women", but rather, is no more blessed than any other woman who believes in and follows Jesus. Please tell me: ought I to believe you, or ought I to believe one who is recorded in the Gospel of Luke to have said in the Holy Spirit that Mary it "blessed among women", and that it was an honor to receive visitation by the "Mother of my Lord"? Please contemplate and question your own underlying spirit to be making such claims. That goes for all of you. Thank you.

You just said a bunch of words that did nothing to change what I had said...

Try addressing what was said this time?

Look here.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and
brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone
told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside,
wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my
brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my
mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of
my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and
mother.” Mat 12:46-50

So? Let's see.. If your mother is a believer? And, my mother, as well?

And, they both do the will of God for their life?

These kinds of mothers all are the mothers of God. (according to your logic)

grace and His peace........

usexpat97 · Sep 20, 2020

The actions of the Catholic church which made Protestantism even necessary was what did more harm than good.

Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to justify burning people at the stake.

Aussie Pete · Sep 20, 2020

Aspzan said:
There's a book called Behold Your Mother by Tim Staples. It's about Catholic beliefs about Mary. He's a former Protestant Minster. I haven't read it but I've listned to some of his explanations.

I have read the Bible through and through. It says explicitly that Lord Jesus had brothers. They were not all a result of a virgin birth. Roman Catholicism denies the authority of the Bible. Traditions of men are no substitute for God's word.

truefiction1 · Sep 20, 2020

genez said:
Know the Word.

Better know it very well!

For, if we fail to do so?

We'll end up caught, and embarrassed as h-ll!

Look here.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and
brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone
told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside,
wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my
brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my
mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of
my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and
mother.” Mat 12:46-50

So? Let's see.. If your mother is a believer? And, my mother, as well?

And, they both do the will of God for their life?

These mothers all are the mothers of God. (according to your illogical conclusion, they are!)

grace and His peace........

The Holy Spirit Himself addresses what you said, in the very Scripture inspired by Him in the Gospel of Luke. There, Elizabeth, speaking by the Holy Spirit, calls Mary "blessed among all women". If you don't know what the Holy Spirit means when He, through Elizabeth, calls her blessed among all women, then there's not much that anyone can say to you at this point that will make any difference in how you are judging things.

truefiction1 · Sep 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I have read the Bible through and through. It says explicitly that Lord Jesus had brothers. They were not all a result of a virgin birth. Roman Catholicism denies the authority of the Bible. Traditions of men are no substitute for God's word.

But the brothers of Jesus were not biological offspring of His mother Mary. James was the son of Joseph who was a widower and much older than Mary. Other brothers were not brothers, but cousins, which were often referred to as being brothers in the culture of that time. The Church is not ignoring the words of Scripture when she teaches the ever-virginity of Mary, even though that might seem to be the case. The Lord works in mysterious ways, whereas the devil just tricks people in certain ways. Do you think that the devil likes the virgin Mary? Do you think that he likes it when she is honored as pure and ever-virgin Mother of God? I don't think that he likes it at all. I think he delights in those who say that she is not pure and ever-virgin and who refrain from calling her the Mother of God. Do you think that he wants people to believe that Jesus is God? Do you think that he likes it when we affirm our belief that Jesus Christ is God incarnate by calling Christ's mother the Mother of God? I wonder.

a-lily-of-peace · Sep 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I have read the Bible through and through. It says explicitly that Lord Jesus had brothers. They were not all a result of a virgin birth. Roman Catholicism denies the authority of the Bible. Traditions of men are no substitute for God's word.

Now Joseph had a dream, and he told it to his brothers; and they hated him even more. So he said to them, “Please hear this dream which I have dreamed: There we were, binding sheaves in the field. Then behold, my sheaf arose and also stood upright; and indeed your sheaves stood all around and bowed down to my sheaf.”
And his brothers said to him, “Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.
Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
(Genesis 37:5-9, NKJV)

And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
(Genesis 20:11-12, NKJV)

Dansiph · Sep 20, 2020

usexpat97 said:
The actions of the Catholic church which made Protestantism even necessary was what did more harm than good.

Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to justify burning people at the stake.

I just read that Elizabeth I who was a Protestant tortured and executed the same amount of Catholics as Queen Mary did Protestants.

SkyWriting · Sep 20, 2020

Der Alte said:
So you are of the opinion that if anyone tried to introduce anything pagan into the church faithful Christians should not protest?

I don't impose my opinions onto the actions of other individuals.
Except through government regulations.

RushMAN · Sep 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I have read the Bible through and through. It says explicitly that Lord Jesus had brothers

In English which is a translation. Have you read it in the original language? Do you understand that the original language does not equal the English language and that the term does not mean brother or sister as the English word does and the word is better put as kin not blood relation. The Bible is not easy to understand with so many translation erroneous choices.

Der Alte · Sep 20, 2020

SkyWriting said:
I don't impose my opinions onto the actions of other individuals.
Except through government regulations.

We weren't discussing what you or I would or would not do but what the Christians way back when a lot of paganism was supposedly adopted by church and if that is true why no faithful believers objected.

Protestantism has done more harm than good.

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