The rapture - some say it is near or past or ongoing

JacksBratt said:

I agree..

Do you agree that it doesn't "start" ... based on the simple fact that it happens faster than you can blink?

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No, it is treated as sudden when it does happen, I was just saying that many people use that as justification that it is sudden and unexpected. It'll be unexpected if you're not watching, but anticipated if you're watching. So anticipated, but still sudden and near instant.

Jamdoc said:

No, it is treated as sudden when it does happen, I was just saying that many people use that as justification that it is sudden and unexpected. It'll be unexpected if you're not watching, but anticipated if you're watching. So anticipated, but still sudden and near instant.

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OK. I can agree that those who are knowledgeable about it and the signs.. will be aware of it's nearing... Like today. And.. it will be instantaneous when it happens..

But.. it is not "starting".. the events which precede it... are starting and taking place now.. IMO.

But hey. if I'm wrong, I can change my eschatology views in mid air.[/QUOTE]

Nicely put!

JacksBratt said:

OK. I can agree that those who are knowledgeable about it and the signs.. will be aware of it's nearing... Like today. And.. it will be instantaneous when it happens..

But.. it is not "starting".. the events which precede it... are starting and taking place now.. IMO.

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Correct, the prerequisite conditions for Jesus' return are happening as we're living. If people want to say that is "starting" that's just.. I dunno, an interpretation of containing the rapture within a larger group of end time events that are starting.
But the OP's question where some people were considering the rapture to be a gradual process, that doesn't align with scripture.

ewq1938 said:

But if you suddenly are caught up to the clouds you have indeed vanished to those who are on the Earth and cannot see you any longer and do not know where you have gone. Now, I don't believe the rapture is going to happen when people are flying planes and driving school buses. I don't believe God would allow such devastating accidents to happen as a result of the people being taken away but they will vanish. I don't know if it's an instantaneous catching up or not but assume it's fast as opposed to slow.

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It happens in an instant ....

1 Corinthians 15:52
Berean Study Bible
in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

When He returns those left on earth are destroyed ...

Revelation 11:18

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

1 Thessalonians 2

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

The window for the rapture is closing, but no-one can know the day nor hour. We can know the season, which Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians about the rapture, the season being the parable of the fig tree generation. (differently, Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (them living in Judea, who will go through the great tribulation).

On you tube, there were some video's that had been predicting the rapture to take place on September 28, 2020 (Brenda Weltner) and going by the many comments a lot of people are convinced of her teachings. The comments to me were amazing because they showed a complete lack of understanding of what begins the 7 years.



I am on the side of a sudden disappearance because there is nothing that says the rest of the world with see Christians leave. Being caught up in the clouds should be a warning not to listen to some false prophet trying to gather, pre-assemble people together here on earth, using the rapture as a pretense.

Douggg said:

The window for the rapture is closing, but no-one can know the day nor hour. We can know the season, which Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians about the rapture, the season being the parable of the fig tree generation. (differently, Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (them living in Judea, who will go through the great tribulation).

On you tube, there were some video's that had been predicting the rapture to take place on October 18,2020 (Brenda Weltner) and going by the many comments a lot of people are convinced of her teachings. The comments to me were amazing because they showed a complete lack of understanding of what begins the 7 years.

I am on the side of a sudden disappearance because there is nothing that says the rest of the world with see Christians leave. Being caught up in the clouds should be a warning not to listen to some false prophet trying to gather, pre-assemble people together here on earth, using the rapture as a pretense.

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The window hasn't even opened according to 2 Thessalonians 2.

Jamdoc said:

The window hasn't even opened according to 2 Thessalonians 2.

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There's a common misconception with that passage, thinking it is pertaining to a falling away and a revelation is necessary prior to our gathering. It's really a misreading. The passage states these things take place prior to the 'day of the Lord'. That is not the rapture and is easily understood as such just by doing a search of the passage as Paul would have known it.

For example, Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Does this sound like our gathering to Him? No. Isn't that what we desire, and yet scripture declares a 'woe' on those who desire that day. Yes, if the day of the Lord was our gathering to Him, but it isn't. That's not a rapture statement.

SeventyOne said:

There's a common misconception with that passage, thinking it is pertaining to a falling away and a revelation is necessary prior to our gathering. It's really a misreading. The passage states these things take place prior to the 'day of the Lord'. That is not the rapture and is easily understood as such just by doing a search of the passage as Paul would have known it.

For example, Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Does this sound like our gathering to Him? No. Isn't that what we desire, and yet scripture declares a 'woe' on those who desire that day. Yes, if the day of the Lord was our gathering to Him, but it isn't. That's not a rapture statement.

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The day of the Lord, the BEGINNING of the wrath of the Lord, is the same day as the gathering of the saints. The gathering happens right before it.
Just like Jesus describes, it's like the days of Noah and like the days of Lot. Just before God's wrath on the earth, He pulls the righteous out. But it is just before HIS wrath, not persecution caused by men, even the antichrist. What that says to me is that if you're not a christian, if you take the mark of the beast, so you're not being persecuted, life will be pretty normal. This is before the trumpets and vials obviously, but after the mark.

In 2 Thessalonians both chapters 1 and 2, Paul connected the wrath of God and the gathering of the saints/rapture to Him as happening in the same event. The beginning of His second coming.
What I get from Joel 2, Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21, the Thessalonians epistles, and Revelation 6, is cosmological star signs that happen after the great tribulations that began at the abomination of desolation, followed by Jesus coming as the lightning across the sky, coming in the clouds, sitting on a throne, with the saints being gathered, and then the wrath of God starts.
Revelation 6:17 is the mark of when the day of the Lord begins, and if you'll notice the verses before it, they match up perfectly with Joel 2, the Olivet Discourse, and they also fit 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 when you cross reference Matthew 24:30-31
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 do not describe a secret event at all. It describes Jesus descending from heaven with a shout and the trump of God.
That's not secret at all.
The rapture IS the second coming but do not mistake that for Revelation 19. All events that happen after the sun and moon go dark in Revelation 6 are part of the second coming, and they take time, bare minimum 5 months and actually the 6th trumpet also says a year, a month, a day, and an hour, so 1.5 years before Armageddon Jesus comes in the clouds, or maybe even further back from Armageddon.

The timing of the Abomination of Desolation giving the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week to the Antichrist, means at most 2 years of great tribulation, but it could be cut shorter than that. Matthew 24 says they will be cut short, so it won't be "7 year tribulation" or even "3.5 year tribulation". The time gets cut short of 3.5 years.

ewq1938 said:

But if you suddenly are caught up to the clouds you have indeed vanished to those who are on the Earth and cannot see you any longer and do not know where you have gone.

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The description of the earth after the coming of Christ, given by the prophet Jeremiah, is an apt description of the formless and void earth:

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld and lo the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, by His fierce anger (Jeremiah 4:23-26).

Satan Bound | God's Judgments upon demonic forces

BobRyan said:

I have heard recently that some folks think the rapture has started - and is related to a number of people dying.

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It could be we're seeing Revelation 3:10 and these are the last of the church of "brotherly love" being kept from the evil to come. This verse is often quoted as argument for pre-trib rapture, but it could mean the Lord holds off the beginning of sorrows until the last of the loving generation passes. It's tempting to think I would have thought the same thing if I were living in the days of the Spanish Flu or great plagues of Europe, but Matthew 24:12 seems to have started only recently within the last couple of generations.

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. Isaiah 57:1

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:10

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:12

Jesus is coming soon so let's share the gospel with everyone, anyone. Being outside of Christ on the day of the Lord will be a terrible experience for anyone.

Taking all rapture-returna Jesus Scriptures into consideration, the the time of the rapture will be shortly after the antichrist takes power. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide, including all small children, which the world will accept-that is, all but a few who will realize what actually happened, & will come to Jesus & not take the marka the beast.

The rapture will remove virtually all opposition to the mark. Right now there's mucho opposition to anything that could be construed as that mark, especially implantable microchips. The mark will be given very soon after the rapture.

And no, the rapture won't be the returna Jesus. In the rapture, He will call the believers to Him, including all the dead ones. He won't come to them; they'll come to Him.

The great trib will start soon after the rapture.

robycop3 said:

Taking all rapture-returna Jesus Scriptures into consideration, the the time of the rapture will be shortly after the antichrist takes power. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide, including all small children, which the world will accept-that is, all but a few who will realize what actually happened, & will come to Jesus & not take the marka the beast.

The rapture will remove virtually all opposition to the mark. Right now there's mucho opposition to anything that could be construed as that mark, especially implantable microchips. The mark will be given very soon after the rapture.

And no, the rapture won't be the returna Jesus. In the rapture, He will call the believers to Him, including all the dead ones. He won't come to them; they'll come to Him.

The great trib will start soon after the rapture.

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Can you provide any Scripture to substantiate this outline of events?

As a disclaimer: I fully anticipate a number of passages, but my goal here is to challenge people to really think these things true, and to look at Scripture more objectively.

So when you quote the Scriptures you plan on quoting, I want you to look at them very closely and ask, "Does this say what I think it says?" Or are you simply taking it as a given based on possibly years of being told that's what it means.

Take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 for example. As I know this will be quoted. I want you to look at that passage very clearly, does it say that anyone disappears and is taken into heaven? Does it say this will happen, basically, in secret? With all the noise going on in the passage, and given what else Scripture says, "Every eye will see Him" how could this happen without everyone seeing it happen? As for the timing, notice that it doesn't say anything about before a tribulation. Is there any reason to believe that this is a different return than His return in glory? Is there any reasonable defense of a double Parousia? What happens when you compare this to other places in Scripture that speak of Christ's return? For example in 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of the dead rising at Christ's coming, and Christ delivering all things to the Father.

Compare with what else Scripture says. Ask the important questions. Think through all this critically.

It says that the dead are raised at Christ's coming, and we who are alive and remain shall join them in meeting the Lord in the air. Not taken up into heaven, but meeting Jesus--the returning Jesus--in the air. So where does the "taken to heaven" show up in that passage, and on what reason would one believe that is what the text is saying here when it doesn't say that at all?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Can you provide any Scripture to substantiate this outline of events?

As a disclaimer: I fully anticipate a number of passages, but my goal here is to challenge people to really think these things true, and to look at Scripture more objectively.

So when you quote the Scriptures you plan on quoting, I want you to look at them very closely and ask, "Does this say what I think it says?" Or are you simply taking it as a given based on possibly years of being told that's what it means.

Take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 for example. As I know this will be quoted. I want you to look at that passage very clearly, does it say that anyone disappears and is taken into heaven? Does it say this will happen, basically, in secret? With all the noise going on in the passage, and given what else Scripture says, "Every eye will see Him" how could this happen without everyone seeing it happen? As for the timing, notice that it doesn't say anything about before a tribulation. Is there any reason to believe that this is a different return than His return in glory? Is there any reasonable defense of a double Parousia? What happens when you compare this to other places in Scripture that speak of Christ's return? For example in 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of the dead rising at Christ's coming, and Christ delivering all things to the Father.

Compare with what else Scripture says. Ask the important questions. Think through all this critically.

It says that the dead are raised at Christ's coming, and we who are alive and remain shall join them in meeting the Lord in the air. Not taken up into heaven, but meeting Jesus--the returning Jesus--in the air. So where does the "taken to heaven" show up in that passage, and on what reason would one believe that is what the text is saying here when it doesn't say that at all?

-CryptoLutheran

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According to that time, when Paul wrote, all the dead in Christ, have risen first. Paul claiming the dead in Christ will rise first has been fulfilled and being fulfilled even as we post in this thread. The point was not to delay a resurrection, but that the living would not prevent such a resurrection.

So no other NT book gives a resurrection account that fits Paul's version. So are you putting the emphasis on a general resurrection that cannot fit Revelation or a process that happens to living humans that cannot fit Revelation? Revelation only mentions the dead "in Christ". It actually only mentions the church after the church is before God in the temple of God (Revelation 7). Now you can twist other passages in Revelation and make them say whatever your acceptable theology enforces. After Revelation 7, it seems to me John is pointing out the failures of the church and God’s judgment accorded to those failures. It is a warning, not something to look forward to. Why place the church in any action after chapter 7? The church only comes down in the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. God is in the temple in Revelation 7 with the church. God is in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21. They both have the same physical description except the New Jerusalem seems to be more embellished with glory. Can you explain how the church changes locations without any explanation why, by John himself? Seems like human theology is just making up scenarios out of their sinful imaginations.

robycop3 said:

Taking all rapture-returna Jesus Scriptures into consideration, the the time of the rapture will be shortly after the antichrist takes power. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide, including all small children, which the world will accept-that is, all but a few who will realize what actually happened, & will come to Jesus & not take the marka the beast.

The rapture will remove virtually all opposition to the mark. Right now there's mucho opposition to anything that could be construed as that mark, especially implantable microchips. The mark will be given very soon after the rapture.

And no, the rapture won't be the returna Jesus. In the rapture, He will call the believers to Him, including all the dead ones. He won't come to them; they'll come to Him.

The great trib will start soon after the rapture.

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Not necessarily shortly after, but sometime after, within 2 years after, because the wrath of God seems to take at least a year and a half, and the Antichrist only continues for 42 months after the Abomination of desolation.

I wouldn't read too much into the instructions for the church in Smyrna about having tribulation 10 days. The Great Tribulation that starts with the Abomination of Desolation will be a campaign of persecution so severe that Jesus has to cut it short or all the people of God would be wiped out. So unless they're going to be capable of executing hundreds of millions in 10 days that's kinda pushing it.

But the 5th and 6th trumpets do give a length of time and the wrath of God lasts probably longer than just those 2 judgements, so under 2 years.

It took the Nazis about 3 years to kill 6 million jews.

ViaCrucis said:

Can you provide any Scripture to substantiate this outline of events?

As a disclaimer: I fully anticipate a number of passages, but my goal here is to challenge people to really think these things true, and to look at Scripture more objectively.

So when you quote the Scriptures you plan on quoting, I want you to look at them very closely and ask, "Does this say what I think it says?" Or are you simply taking it as a given based on possibly years of being told that's what it means.

Take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 for example. As I know this will be quoted. I want you to look at that passage very clearly, does it say that anyone disappears and is taken into heaven? Does it say this will happen, basically, in secret? With all the noise going on in the passage, and given what else Scripture says, "Every eye will see Him" how could this happen without everyone seeing it happen? As for the timing, notice that it doesn't say anything about before a tribulation. Is there any reason to believe that this is a different return than His return in glory? Is there any reasonable defense of a double Parousia? What happens when you compare this to other places in Scripture that speak of Christ's return? For example in 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of the dead rising at Christ's coming, and Christ delivering all things to the Father.

Compare with what else Scripture says. Ask the important questions. Think through all this critically.

It says that the dead are raised at Christ's coming, and we who are alive and remain shall join them in meeting the Lord in the air. Not taken up into heaven, but meeting Jesus--the returning Jesus--in the air. So where does the "taken to heaven" show up in that passage, and on what reason would one believe that is what the text is saying here when it doesn't say that at all?

-CryptoLutheran

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I shall post scriptures later, as I don't have time right now, but I'll clarify "Every eye shall see Him".

Right now, events such as the Super Bowl can be seen around the globe as it happens via satellite TV. These devices are all man-made. How much more can JESUS do? If MAN can do it, Jesus can do it so much better. And every eye includes the souls in hades now, as those who pierced Him shall see Him as well.

robycop3 said:

I shall post scriptures later, as I don't have time right now, but I'll clarify "Every eye shall see Him".

Right now, events such as the Super Bowl can be seen around the globe as it happens via satellite TV. These devices are all man-made. How much more can JESUS do? If MAN can do it, Jesus can do it so much better. And every eye includes the souls in hades now, as those who pierced Him shall see Him as well.

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It's not a question of how every eye sees Him, though I believe this quite literally--when Jesus returns, there won't be anyway to doubt it. Everyone will see Him. Everyone will know it's Him.

It won't be a secret. It won't be able to be denied. Because when He comes, He comes in glory--and every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that He is Lord.

We won't need technology for this--it will be known to all without exception.

-CryptoLutheran

Timtofly said:

According to that time, when Paul wrote, all the dead in Christ, have risen first. Paul claiming the dead in Christ will rise first has been fulfilled and being fulfilled even as we post in this thread. The point was not to delay a resurrection, but that the living would not prevent such a resurrection.

So no other NT book gives a resurrection account that fits Paul's version. So are you putting the emphasis on a general resurrection that cannot fit Revelation or a process that happens to living humans that cannot fit Revelation? Revelation only mentions the dead "in Christ". It actually only mentions the church after the church is before God in the temple of God (Revelation 7). Now you can twist other passages in Revelation and make them say whatever your acceptable theology enforces. After Revelation 7, it seems to me John is pointing out the failures of the church and God’s judgment accorded to those failures. It is a warning, not something to look forward to. Why place the church in any action after chapter 7? The church only comes down in the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. God is in the temple in Revelation 7 with the church. God is in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21. They both have the same physical description except the New Jerusalem seems to be more embellished with glory. Can you explain how the church changes locations without any explanation why, by John himself? Seems like human theology is just making up scenarios out of their sinful imaginations.

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So you deny the resurrection of the body?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

So you deny the resurrection of the body?

-CryptoLutheran

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Paul does as well. We are changed. The dead in Christ have an incorruptible body now. Judaism teaches the resurrection of the body. That is not found in the Bible. Yet it seems the church carried over some of Judaism into her theology.

Paul was taught Judaism. He did not teach the new church what he was taught. The Holy Spirit corrected the falsehood he was taught, and Paul knew the difference. We can see that even the Pharisees and Saducees did not agree on their own theology at the end. That there is a divide among Modern Christians is not surprising.

Matthew 27 claims bodies walked out of the graves. The chapter cannot be interpreted from a Judaism theological view. The correct view would be Paul’s incorruptible body. Adam's flesh and blood can not enter, not even after the Cross. God restored their bodies to a pre-fall condition. These bodies were not corruptible bodies, but incorruptible. They were changed at the Cross. All who die in Christ are changed immediately at death, since the cross.

Teaching that all the dead have to wait for some future event, denies Paul’s point that we alive cannot prevent those who have died. Paul did not say they had to wait until God collects the living. The whole point is they do not have to wait for a general resurrection like the OT dead had to wait in sheol, for the Cross.

Preaching Judaism that is waiting still until the Last Day, means one is still waiting for Messiah to come as was prophecied in the OT. As believers in God who know God already came in the body of Jesus Christ, we know that general resurrection happened at the Cross, or at least we should know. Judaism teaches it has not happened yet.