usexpat97

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This is an interesting approach. What does it mean to say something is literal if it doesn't fit our experience of literal things like speaking?

Usually, when we say something is like something else, but not exactly the same, we mean it is figurative. ;)

Are you saying in a figurative sense, God literally spoke and it came into being?

We have this idea that a miracle happens magically, as opposed to naturally. And we get our idea of magic from watching magicians as kids and watching Lord of the Rings. Yet God created nature. If He speaks and something happens, that does not contradict natural law. That by definition IS natural law. Jesus spoke, and the storm calmed down. That was a natural event--AND Jesus spoke, and it happened. Jesus told the disciples where to find the coin to pay the temple tax in a fish. The coin got there by a sequence of natural events--AND Jesus miraculously knew where to find it. It happened literally.
 
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public hermit

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This is a Glory that we will ponder on forever in eternity. Those terms and the term 'mouth' will never fully describe the source Glory of the Word of God, but the term is adequate for our understanding

Okay, this makes sense. To say "mouth" in this context is short of a full description but adequate for understanding is to say it's figurative. Would you agree?
 
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Hi there,

When the Father spoke the words at Jesus baptism "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased" Do we dismiss this as not literal as well?

By extension do we then consider the event of the baptism as figurative also?

That is the reasoning you seem to be applying to Genesis.

Does God have a mouth? - YES.

Did Jesus (as God) pre-exist the creation? YES

Did Jesus speak to His people in the wilderness? YES

You see the terms Father and Son are anthropomorphic but adequate and sanctioned by God to describe the Mystery and Glory behind them. This is a Glory that we will ponder on forever in eternity. Those terms and the term 'mouth' will never fully describe the source Glory of the Word of God, but the term is adequate for our understanding.

To write off Genesis and not factual on the basis that the terms used don't embrace the entire meaning of the Mysteries of God is folly.
Hi Carl
I would make an existential distinction between the second person of the Trinity and Jesus. The Son of God is eternal, but the man, Jesus, was conceived in Mary's womb.
 
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Charlie24

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If that's the case then it wasn't literal, which is what Maimonides was saying.



Image could refer to something other than physical attributes, such as having intellect and will or being relational.



I would say not. I would say, sitting down at the "right hand" indicates one who has the authority and "ear" of the ruler, as it did in ancient royal courts. It's figurative.

God is a spirit and can become flesh anytime He desires.

How you define literal concerning the difference between spirit and flesh is debatable.
 
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public hermit

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How you define literal concerning the difference between spirit and flesh is debatable

I hadn't considered this. Interesting thought. I'll have to sit with this one for a bit. Thank you.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Is God a physical being, then?

There it is again - applying the word physical to God is a nonsense.

How He exists is a glorious mystery - Jesus in His resurrected body ate with the disciples, they touched Him yet walked through walls.

His mode of existence is well beyond our comprehension.

Applying 'logic' to God is like trying to shovel air into a bucket. Logic is the wrong tool, faith is.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Okay, this makes sense. To say "mouth" in this context is short of a full description but adequate for understanding is to say it's figurative. Would you agree?

NO because figurative suggests Jesus doesn't have a mouth which He certainly does.
 
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public hermit

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His mode of existence is well beyond our comprehension.

Hey, I'm in complete agreement with this. But, if this is true, then it doesn't make sense to say that God literally spoke and it came into being, any more than it makes sense to say God has a right hand by which the Son sits. If God's mode of being transcends our understanding then we should take these kinds of statements figuratively, correct?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hey, I'm in complete agreement with this. But, if this is true, then it doesn't make sense to say that God literally spoke and it came into being, any more than it makes sense to say God has a right hand by which the Son sits. If God's mode of being transcends our understanding then we should take these kinds of statements figuratively, correct?

No... because this dismisses the physical aspect of God - an aspect among others we don't fully understand, that He certainly has.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hi Carl
I would make an existential distinction between the second person of the Trinity and Jesus. The Son of God is eternal, but the man, Jesus, was conceived in Mary's womb.

The two are one... I don't agree with dividing the Godhead.
 
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Just because God didn't speak in the incredibly small way that humans speak doesn't mean that God didn't literally speak in the way that God is able to speak. Think of God speaking as the Socratic ideal compared to how humans speak. That probably still doesn't cover it, but allows for a literal translation.
Ask the Orthodox. ;)
 
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Rachel20

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We have this idea that a miracle happens magically, as opposed to naturally. And we get our idea of magic from watching magicians as kids and watching Lord of the Rings. Yet God created nature. If He speaks and something happens, that does not contradict natural law. That by definition IS natural law.

I kind of like this approach, with a little tweaking. Someone mentioned Maimonides who I had heard concluded there were 10 dimensions based on a study of the "God said 'let there be ..." verses. We just can't perceive them all. So when you say the natural laws, you could include those requiring more dimensions those we perceive. I saw a post on tesseracts that said just an additional 4th spatial dimension could allow matter to exist in the same space. Makes sense in the same way a 3rd spatial dimension allows triangles to have more than 180 degrees (magic in flatlander land!!). Jesus did marvel at the centurion in Matthew 8:10, who seemed to have insight into what goes on in the greater realms.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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"This has already been stated by other authors, and is well known. A proof for this, namely that the phrase "God said" in the first chapter of Genesis, must be taken in the figurative sense "He willed," and not in its literal meaning, is found in the circumstance that a command can only be given to a being which exists and is capable of receiving the command. Compare, "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" (Psalm 33:6). "His mouth," and "the breath of his mouth," are undoubtedly figurative expressions...The meaning of the verse is therefore that they exist through his will and desire." (Moses Maimonides The Guide for the Perplexed Chapter LXV)

As I have argued elsewhere, the opening chapters of Genesis cannot be wholly taken in a literal sense without embracing absurdity.
It is not possible to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally.

Let's assume that God literally spoke and creation came into being. Does God have a mouth? Who heard what was said? Does God have ears? In other words, does God have parts? It cannot be that God has parts, for God is One. If God has parts, then God is a composite being, composed by that which is smaller than the whole, which is absurd. So, if God does not have a literal mouth, then God did not speak literal words, and so not all of the opening chapter of Genesis 1 should be taken literally.

But, if not all of Genesis 1 should be taken literally, why should other parts like "day" be taken as a literal 24 hour period? There is no reason to take "day" as a literal 24 hour period, for to the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day (2 Peter 3:8).

So, should "God said" be taken literally or figuratively? Why?
Romans 4:17 seems to agree with God said be taken literally.

In Genesis God said light and there was light.

So this would lend to the understanding that "God said and it was so"
 
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public hermit

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NO because figurative suggests Jesus doesn't have a mouth which He certainly does.

The 2nd person has a mouth post incarnation. Or, do you want to say the incarnation is eternal?
 
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St_Worm2

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Is God a physical being, then?
Hello Public Hermit, the Father is "spirit", as is the Holy Ghost, as are the angels, and yet,

Luke 2
8 There were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace,
Good will toward men.
15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven,
the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Beth-lehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.

Can the angels (who are spirits) do what God cannot? Can we?

Rather than God needing to be a physical Being, with a mouth, tongue and vocal chords to speak, I believe that He fashioned those things for us when He created us, to allow us to do so as well :) (speak that is, not call things into being ex nihillo ;)).

Of course, if He wanted those things (physical attributes), He could have them, as people have already mentioned in this thread (as He certainly took many different physical forms in the OT and often spoke to us, Moses, the Prophets, and many others when He did, yes)?

Exodus 3
1 Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”
6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
The member of the Godhead who walked among us as a man and died on the Cross to save us from our sins is the very same One who created the universe (spoke it and everything in it into existence) and Who, since the Creation, has held it all together as well .. e.g. John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17. We have no way of imagining all that God is and is capable of (on this side of the grave), but perhaps it is best to not imagine Him as less than we know that He is, or that He is somehow limited in all of the ways that we are, yes?

God bless you!

--David

Acts of the Apostles 13
1 There were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

.
 
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public hermit

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Rather than God needing to be a physical Being, with a mouth, tongue and vocal chords to speak, I believe that He fashioned those things for us when He created us to allow us to do so as well :) (speak that is, not call things into being ex nihillo ;))

You make some good points. Would you say that God spoke, just not exactly in the way or by the same means as us? In other words, it is figurative, but no less true?
 
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Just because God didn't speak in the incredibly small way that humans speak doesn't mean that God didn't literally speak in the way that God is able to speak. Think of God speaking as the Socratic ideal compared to how humans speak. That probably still doesn't cover it, but allows for a literal translation.
Ask the Orthodox. ;)

I have some sympathy with looking at it this way. God's literal is not like our literal, but they are analogously related, perhaps? I would say this still supports taking the language as figurative. So, yes, God "spoke" it into existence but not by pushing air through God's mouth which formed sounds. God's "speaking" is God willing, pace Maimonides, but it's analogous to how a powerful human commands something to be done and it happens.
 
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IMHO God can speak without needing any physical means. My next thought is did he create sound waves doing so? I would reply with a yes.
 
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