Covenant and New Covenant theology

mkgal1 said:

God used the vision of unclean animals (based on Leviticus) - while the meal was being prepared - and told Peter to "kill and eat". Unclean/clean refers to both dietary laws and Gentiles.....as Peter and Paul both understood. It's another example of shadows in the old testament becoming their reality in the new testament:

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"Unclean/clean refers to both dietary laws and Gentiles"

This religious philosophy can not be supported by Scriptures. There is not one place in the Bible where God calls swine Clean. According to the Holy Scriptures, Swines Flesh is still unclean even after Jesus comes back.

IS. 56:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

We can't make ourselves Clean, and we can't make what God has created unclean, Clean either.

Will religious man sanctify and purify themselves anyway? No doubt, this has been going on since Eve chose her own judgement over Gods.

Neither Jesus nor Peter ever ate Pork, because it was unclean, it wasn't food, and there is no evidence that God reversed HIS judgment regarding things strangled, eating blood, or swines flesh.

But There is all manner of evidence from Able to Revelations that men who were unclean, have been made clean by God.

So this is another popular doctrine that can not be supported by the Word's of God, only the religious philosophies of man.

Studyman said:

Are you saying these men in question are serving the God of the Bibles Commandments?, His Sabbaths? His Laws, before they even knew HIM?

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"These men in question"? You mean the church at Galatia that Paul was writing to? Or the Judaizers?

As far as the church @ Galatia....Paul is encouraging them back to the Gospel of Christ after they'd gotten confused by Judaizers.

Interesting that you bring up the old covenant requirement of the Sabbath. Literally we can thank Jesus this is no longer binding to anyone:

As I posted earlier.....the old covenant law is one unit:

mkgal1 said:

The Galatians weren't turning back to their former ways.....it was the Judaizers (not pagan gods) that were influencing them when Paul was writing to them.

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I know the question I asked is uncomfortable for many to answer. But I hope you might consider the question again, and this time answer it.

"Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

What service is this mkgal1? Who were the gods here that are "No gods" that they served mkgal1? Are you saying these men in question are serving the God of the Bibles Commandments?, His Sabbaths? His Laws, before they even knew HIM?"

This is an important question to answer. "When YE knew not God", these are Galatians. Please, if you would be so kind, answer the questions I posed.

What service did these Galatians who didn't know the God of the Bible, engage in? Were the Beggarly Elements they followed before they knew God, God's Laws, Sabbaths, Passover, Pentcost that you are saying are obsolete?

Or before they knew God did they follow the high days, feasts and observances of those who were no gods?

So I think this is a perfect example of why Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the Mainstream Preachers of the land.

You have stated many times that the Pharisees were following God's "External laws". And you have been convinced that this is true.

But if I were to just listen to the Prophets, and Jesus, and HIS Disciples, I would find this is not true. I would find that they despised God's Sabbaths, and that they corrupted the Christ's Feasts that the Apostles observed. I would find that they Transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. I would find that Moses gave them God's Law, but they didn't keep them. I would find out they created their own Laws, their own feasts unto the Lord.

So much so that everyone who listened to them "ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

But you are implying, it seems, that they were trying to convince the Galatians to keep God's Commandments, Sabbaths, Holy Days, and follow in the Footsteps of Jesus Himself, who you must believe walked in Beggarly Elements, and walked in a Law HE created for the good of man, but you believe became obsolete.

So it seems imperative that we determine what these "Beggarly Elements" these Galatians were serving before they knew God, so we can know what the Beggarly Elements they were being influenced to return to.

Studyman said:

We can't make ourselves Clean, and we can't make what God has created unclean, Clean either.

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It's not about us making ourselves clean.....it's what God made clean.

Studyman said:

I know the question I asked is uncomfortable for many to answer. But I hope you might consider the question again, and this time answer it.

"Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

What service is this mkgal1? Who were the gods here that are "No gods" that they served

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.First, let's look at the interpretation from the original Greek (because this is diverged a bit from that).


.....this is referring to the pagan idolatry the Greek Gentiles had been involved with before hearing the Gospel.

.....but, secondly, as I did already answer......the overall context of Paul's letters to the church @ Galatia isn't confronting them about returning to pagan worship. It's confronting them about the issue of ancient Jewish old covenant laws.

The book of Acts runs concurrently....and Acts 14 & 15 offers more clarity.

"Acts 14 BSB" Acts 14 BSB

mkgal1 said:

It's not about us making ourselves clean.....it's what God made clean.

Acts 10:15 ~ But the voice spoke again: “Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.”​

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Where did God make Blood, Strangled animals, or Swine clean?

Studyman said:

Where did God make Blood, Strangled animals, or Swine clean?

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I'm not sure where a modern person has to worry about "food polluted by idols".....because that was the whole issue ....idolatry (not the animals themselves). I've never been invited to consume blood or to eat a strangled animal.....have you? Pork/swine wasn't mentioned in the decision made at the Jerusalem Council:


"Acts 15 BSB" Acts 15 BSB<----What was going on in Galatia

Studyman said:

But you are implying, it seems, that they were trying to convince the Galatians to keep God's Commandments, Sabbaths, Holy Days, and follow in the Footsteps of Jesus Himself, who you must believe walked in Beggarly Elements, and walked in a Law HE created for the good of man, but you believe became obsolete.

So it seems imperative that we determine what these "Beggarly Elements" these Galatians were serving before they knew God, so we can know what the Beggarly Elements they were being influenced to return to.

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That actually doesn't line up with what I've posted.

"They" - being the Judaizers....were teaching a false gospel to the Church @ Galatia in Paul's absence (it wasn't about them encouraging obedience to "God's Laws"). It's important, IMO, to tease out who each group was in order to figure out Truth.

Studyman said:

What service is this mkgal1? Who were the gods here that are "No gods" that they served mkgal1? Are you saying these men in question are serving the God of the Bibles Commandments?, His Sabbaths? His Laws, before they even knew HIM?"

This is an important question to answer. "When YE knew not God", these are Galatians. Please, if you would be so kind, answer the questions I posed.

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Studyman.....we started here:

Covenant and New Covenant theology

....are you implying that the Galatians were only enslaved by their formerly pagan ways? Is that how you're understanding Galatians 4:9-11? To me....this looks like Paul was speaking of bondage being the same....just in a new and different way.

Quoting R.C. Sproul ~ The Gentile Galatians would turn away from their Creator if they took upon themselves the yoke of the Mosaic law. They would serve again the “weak and worthless elementary principles” (Gal. 4:9) as they tried to “complete” their salvation by observing the Jewish calendar and other works of the Law (vv. 10–11). - "The Slavery of the Flesh | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org" The Slavery of the Flesh

mkgal1 said:

Studyman.....we started here:

Covenant and New Covenant theology

....are you implying that the Galatians were only enslaved by their formerly pagan ways? Is that how you're understanding Galatians 4:9-11? To me....this looks like Paul was speaking of bondage being the same....just in a new and different way.

Galatians 4:9-11 ~ But now, having known God, but rather having been known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and destitute principles, to which you desire to be enslaved again anew? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain.
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Quoting R.C. Sproul ~ The Gentile Galatians would turn away from their Creator if they took upon themselves the yoke of the Mosaic law. They would serve again the “weak and worthless elementary principles” (Gal. 4:9) as they tried to “complete” their salvation by observing the Jewish calendar and other works of the Law (vv. 10–11). - "The Slavery of the Flesh | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org" The Slavery of the Flesh

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You are free to build your faith around the words of R.C. Sproul or Gamaleil, or some web site, or whatever religious philosopher you choose.

I am going to promote the Word's of God, all of them.

The religious philosophy that preaches that God saved Israel from Egypt from the bondage of deception, only to place on their backs "Beggarly Elements" impossible to follow, which you imply were God's Laws, is not true.

You can further this religious philosophy, but the Word of God will always expose it as false. This is why you have so much difficulty answering my questions with scripture. At some point you have to leave the Holy Scriptures and quote the religious philosophies of the land who you have chosen to believe.

God's Law is Spiritual. His Feasts, His Judgments, His Words, they are Righteousness and they are Spiritual.

Mankind is not "Enslaved" by honoring and obeying the God of the Bible. That is the serpents doctrine that it convinced Eve of. Mankind is freed for unrighteousness when they deny themselves and become Sons of the God of the Bible.

I can not make you trust the Word's of God over the religious philosophy of man. I can only point out the Word's of God which warn of these dangers.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I am not saying we should be careful of the Pagan ways. And neither did Jesus.

He made it clear the greatest danger to true believers.

Mat. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (JESUS) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And what does Mainstream Christianity teach across the entire world?

THE EXACT SAME MESSAGE THE SERPENT CONVINCED EVE OF.

That God is a liar, and He lied when HE told Eve she shall surely die if she rejects God judgments and chooses her own instead.

And that God knows HIS Laws burdens her with the Yoke of Blindness, and the only way to "SEE" is to reject them.

My hope is that you might consider these words and place you trust in the God of the Bible, and not in the religious philosophies of man.

This is why Jesus called all men to repent and turn to God. Not to the religious philosophies of the catholic church, not to the religious philosophies of Gamaleil, or the Pharisees who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

But the Just, Holy , Righteous and Good Laws of God.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

When you finally discern who the "Spirit of Life" in Christ Jesus is, you will know what LAW to follow. Until then, "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods."

Studyman said:

The religious philosophy that preaches that God saved Israel from Egypt from the bondage of deception, only to place on their backs "Beggarly Elements" impossible to follow, which you imply were God's Laws, is not true.

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They only became useless after Christ.
They were a part of the Mosaic Covenant - but were obsolete by the time Paul was writing to those in Galatia.

But this quote demonstrates something interesting - that implications are drawn from things that weren't ever written. The same thing happens with reading/interpreting the Bible. I've never written what's being assigned to me as saying.

mkgal1 said:

I'm not sure where a modern person has to worry about "food polluted by idols".....because that was the whole issue ....idolatry (not the animals themselves). I've never been invited to consume blood or to eat a strangled animal.....have you? Pork/swine wasn't mentioned in the decision made at the Jerusalem Council:

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My take on this is a little different.

What would these coverts learn on the Sabbaths when Moses was read?

Didn't Peter just do the same thing for these coverts that Jesus did for them.


18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

We can Trust God to direct our foot steps, we don't need self proclaimed preachers to place a yoke on our necks, as they did our fathers.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (Of the Bible that Moses wrote about)

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

All sins that were common among sinners in this time.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Peter steered then directly to Moses Seat, just as Jesus did for him.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they (Mainstream preachers of that time) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Peter knew what the Yoke of Bondage these self proclaimed preachers were attempting to place on their necks, just as Jesus knew the Yoke that the Pharisees Laid on the shoulders of men.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

It is more than clear why Peter turned these new converts away from the religious men who "SAID" they brought the Law of Moses, and sent them DIRECTLY to the Law of Moses instead, just as Jesus instructed them to do.

As Peter said prior to this;

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I don't believe your implication that Peter suddenly changed his mind in Acts 15., and the Scriptures certainly don't teach this.

Galatians 3:1-2 ~ You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

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How did Jesus forgive sins before His Death? Did HE do it by following the Temporary "works of the Law" of Forgiveness HE gave to Levi on Israel's behalf? Did Jesus sprinkle blood on the alter every time HE forgave a person their sins? Did He roast the fat of the offering?

No, HE forgave many people while HE walked the earth, and not one time did HE follow the "Works of the Law" when he forgave their sins.

Therefore the question.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Why not? It was the Law was it not? "Many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that Jesus is truly the Christ, preach to the world that Love your neighbor as yourself, and the Law of the Sin Offering can not be separated. You pointed to James 2 and made this claim.

The Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time believed the same thing. That the Priesthood Duties given to Levi, were not Separate from the 10 Commandments. I have heard it on this forum several times.

If I honor and respect the Christ where HIS Sabbath that HE created for man is concerned, then I am also obligated to bring a turtledove to the Levite Priest for forgiveness.

So then in their religious philosophy Jesus was no different than the Pharisees. He commanded sacrificial "Works" with animal blood for others to be forgiven, but would not even lift a finger to do these same laws Himself.

They imply in their ignorance that Jesus was Partial in the Law just like Levi was. He was a sinner because HE didn't lie, He didn't steal, He didn't pollute God's Holy Sabbath, But HE forgave sins without ever performing the "works of the Law" of Moses for forgiveness, making Jesus Himself a "transgressor of the Law" as you define James 2.

But the Bible says Jesus was sinless. So how could this be?

It's really very simple.

Because the modern religious philosophy that God's Law for Abraham and Israel, CAN NOT BE SEPARATED from the Levitical Priesthood given to Levi, IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.

The Priesthood was Prophesied to change, not God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes. That is why you can find a Prophesy regarding the change in the Priesthood duties, but you can not, nor will not, ever find a Prophesy about the abolition of God's Laws. This is because they are Separate. The Priesthood Laws "ADDED" because of Transgressions of the Laws, Statutes and Commandments God gave to Abraham, and then to Abraham's Children.

I know "many" can not accept this, any more than the Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of Jesus time, could accept this..

But the more we discuss it, the more I hope men will consider what is actually written, and choose this over the other voice in the garden, that has snared so many people.

Thanks for providing the impetus to expose these doctrines the Christ warned so many times about.

mkgal1 said:

Actually....I'm NOT saying that (those were the words you used). I posted that the
corrupt scribes and Pharisees were an example of legalism....and that Jesus pronounced that woes awaited them.

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The Pharisees were rejected because they Transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. Because Moses gave them the Law, but they didn't keep the law. Because they taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men, and not God. Because they, not God, laid grievous burdens on the shoulders of men. Because they "Omitted" the weightier matters of the Law.

These are the reasons the Jesus of the Bible gave for why HE rejected them. I'm of a mind that we should accept HIS reasons, even if the religious men of this world teach differently.

mkgal1 said:

Maybe I missed it - but BABerean2 raised the question as to why there would be an attempt to separate the Levites from the entire Israelite assembly pertaining to the Sinai Covenant....and i don't see that addressed in all this.

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You are missing the point. There can be no question that the Priesthood Covenant with Levi was Separate from the command to Israel to obey the voice of the Lord.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


Did the Christ know HE would come to earth as a man when HE gave the Priesthood Covenant to Levi? Did the Christ know HE was going to become the High Priest, and take over the Priesthood Duties from Levi?

Of course HE did. Is there still sin today? Of course there is, and Jesus is still advocating on HIS People behalf. So if there is still sin that Jesus is covering, then there is also God's Law which defines sin. Is the manner in which this sin is forgiven different in Paul's time than it was in Malachi's time? Of course it was. Men are no longer justified by these "Works of the law", But they still need justification because there is still sin.

What the deception is from the other voice in the garden, is that there is no Separation between the Priesthood Covenant God gave Levi, and the Laws, Commandments, and Statutes God gave to Abraham, and then to Abraham's children.

In this deception, satan achieves it's goal which began with Eve. It has convinced "many" that the God of the OT is a liar, and that God's Laws and judgments are the burden, not our own judgments.

I so much appreciate this exercise and the mainstream religious philosophies you bring up for examination.

thank you for that.

mkgal1 said:

They only became useless after Christ.
They were a part of the Mosaic Covenant - but were obsolete by the time Paul was writing to those in Galatia.

But this quote demonstrates something interesting - that implications are drawn from things that weren't ever written. The same thing happens with reading/interpreting the Bible.

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It is a popular religious philosophy that God's Laws are useless. That the Law and Prophets have all been "fulfilled" which you interpret as obsolete, and now useless.

The reason why I don't buy into the very popular religious philosophy is because of what the Holy Scriptures actually say.

For instance;

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So this was at least 15 years since Jesus ascended and Paul is still promoting the Law and Prophets. In fact, he did more than just promote it, he declared that their very existence, the very reason why the Law and Prophets exist, the very reason why God had them written down in the first place, was Specifically for US.

We are not to be ignorant of this biblical fact.

And yet, you are preaching to the world that God's Laws, written for our admonition, are useless by the time Paul get's to the Galatians. That these examples written for our admonition had somehow become "obsolete" between the time he wrote to the Corinthians, and the time he got to the Galatians. So who should we trust here? Paul's Word's, or the religious philosophy of men.

In all due respect, I know you believe these things you preach, no doubt. But when these modern religious philosophies are held to the Holy scriptures as our standard, they become exposed as one of the many winds of doctrines we were warned about.

There are many examples of this same thing, especially from Paul who still believed "ALL" that was written in the Law and Prophets decades after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Cor. 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Again, you preach these Laws are obsolete, useless, but Paul is still living them and preaching them for decades after modern religions claim they are gone.

It is great that you are bringing up all these popular religious doctrines of the Land that we are born into, that we may examine them and determine if they are the religious philosophies of men we are warned so many times about, or wrought in God.

Thank you for the exercise.

Studyman said:

I am going to promote the Word's of God, all of them.

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Studyman said:

God's Law is Spiritual. His Feasts, His Judgments, His Words, they are Righteousness and they are Spiritual.

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Studyman said:

Mankind is not "Enslaved" by honoring and obeying the God of the Bible. That is the serpents doctrine that it convinced Eve of. Mankind is freed for unrighteousness when they deny themselves and become Sons of the God of the Bible.

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Studyman said:

I can not make you trust the Word's of God over the religious philosophy of man. I can only point out the Word's

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Studyman said:

As Peter said prior to this;

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I don't believe your implication that Peter suddenly changed his mind in Acts 15., and the Scriptures certainly don't teach this.

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This is a completely different issue. Are you asserting that the disciples standing in the Temple courts....teaching about Jesus....was the *same thing* as "keeping the Sabbath"?

The statement Peter made ("We ought to obey God rather than men") was in this context:


.....which is a great example of the shift happening of the dividing of the two Israels at that time (the apostate....and the faithful remnant). Soon (to them)....the judgment was to befall on the apostate.

Studyman said:

My take on this is a little different.

What would these coverts learn on the Sabbaths when Moses was read?

Didn't Peter just do the same thing for these coverts that Jesus did for them.

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I don't understand how this reply would be a response to what I posted about "food polluted by idols "?

You'd asked:

......and i responded here: Covenant and New Covenant theology

mkgal1 said:

I'm not a "sir".....nor am I'm moving any bar.

The Levitical priesthood cannot be separated from the Mosaic Covenant. Look at Hebrews 7:11.....the parenthetical statement...."for under it the people received the Law". The Law and priesthood cannot be divorced from one another. This was the former ministry of reconciliation UNTIL Christ Jesus' perfect ministry came.

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YES, The Levite Priests had sole ownership of the Book of the Law. The only way to "Receive" God's Law was through them.

But the Christ promised a "Change" in the manner in which God's Laws were to be administered "After those days" in Jer. 31.

You can read it for yourself, though it may be difficult to accept given the religious philosophies of men that have become so popular today.

It was't the Law men received that chanced, it was the manner in which God's Law was administered, at least according to the Christ of the Bible.

You are simply Biblically wrong about the Temporary Covenant God made with Levi not being Separate from God's eternal Covenant with Abraham that HE furthered on to his Children in Egypt.

For me, I think it is important to let God's Word create the doctrines we follow. This is why you are I disagree on so many things.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his (God's) mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

There was Melchisedec, then Levites, and now Jesus who served as the High Priest of God.

The Priesthood changed, but the God they served, or the Laws of HIS mouth did not. I believe this, not because some random preacher preaches it, but because the Christ Jesus Himself preaches it.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

In other words, Jesus, our High Priest, is following the instructions of God regarding how HE should fulfill the office of the Priesthood, whose Laws to seek, and where they may be found.

Some day maybe I too will become a Priest of God. And I will also know whose knowledge to keep and whose Law to seek. And I have Jesus as the perfect example, who, when the "other" voice in the garden tried to deceive Him, HE didn't lean on HIS own understanding, but went straight to the Word of God. Even Jesus did this. Shall I, who am nothing but a maggot turd, not trust the Judgement's of the Christ Himself?

Thank you so much for providing yet another popular doctrine of the religions of the land so we might examine them and determine if they are wrought in God or not.

Studyman said:

I don't believe your implication that Peter suddenly changed his mind in Acts 15., and the Scriptures certainly don't teach this.

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Peter did have a fairly sudden change of mind that's recorded in Acts 10....prompted by the vision he had and confirmed by the Gentile Pentecost.