Illinois wants federal bailout

ThatRobGuy

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Many of the "blue" states that Trump and his supporters never tire of :bashing" actually contribute more in federal taxes to Washington than they receive in expenditures - while the less prosperous "red" states, particularly in the South and MidWest, receive far more federal dollars than they contribute!

Given this constant stream of abuse being heaped on these Democratic states and cities by the White House, Republican politicians and their supporters, perhaps its time that this financial "gravy train" be brought to a halt, and that each state receives no more, and no less, in federal expenditures than it contributes in taxes!

It has nothing to do with "democrat vs. republican". Nor does it have anything to do with the overarching concept of federal aid to the states.

You have both red and blue states that do a good job managing their own state budgets and agreements with public sector unions, and you have both red and blue states that do a poor job of it.


We're talking about a problem that's very specific to the state of Illinois. (if you'll notice, I didn't bring up New York, Cali, etc...)

List of U.S. state budgets - Wikipedia

They're literally the only state in our country without at least an "A" credit rating.
(and they're talking about downgrading them even more...which if they fall one more notch, they'll go into the realm of what's known as "junk status" and they'll be the first state to go that low since Alabama in the 1930's)

They borrow a lot of money, and use it to fund unsustainable programs that bleed out for a decade, and then go back to the well to borrow more with no plan of action to pay it back.

If Texas or Vermont or Maine or Virginia (name a state) had a public sector union pension plan that was so unsustainable that they literally had to borrow money and go further into debt each year since 2001 in order to make the pension payments, despite receiving $3.8 Billion a year from the feds, having one of the highest tax burdens in the country:
upload_2020-9-19_14-14-59.png


...and the 6th highest sales tax rates in the nation, I'd have an issue with them trying get a "get out of debt free card" under the guise of "Covid relief" as well.


So, again, this has nothing to do with "pouncing on blue states"...I don't have an allegiance to either of the major parties. This is about a specific problem that's unique to Illinois, and them trying to exploit covid to get out of it.

Illinois pension crisis - Wikipedia
 
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hedrick

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I don't think Illinois should be helped separately. But the Covid situation has caused a problem for all states. We assume it will be temporary. But if they have to fire a bunch of people, it will make the problem worse. The Federal government doesn't have this issue, because they can borrow. We don't need to do anything special for Illinois. We can treat them like anyplace else. But this isn't the time to fire teachers, police, etc., but states will have to do that.
 
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grasping the after wind

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This is not something special for Illinois. This is a call for something to help state and local governments nationwide, such as is included in the current bipartisan stimulus plan.

If states need more money they should increase their taxes or cut their spending or borth., The federal government has no business reallocating taxpayer's money from the responsible to the irresponsible. The federal government should not be handing out money to any states for any reason.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't think Illinois should be helped separately. But the Covid situation has caused a problem for all states. We assume it will be temporary. But if they have to fire a bunch of people, it will make the problem worse. The Federal government doesn't have this issue, because they can borrow. We don't need to do anything special for Illinois. We can treat them like anyplace else. But this isn't the time to fire teachers, police, etc., but states will have to do that.

Defund Education.
 
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KarateCowboy

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This always makes me laugh, when people from welfare states get upset that one of the donor states that is propping up their welfare states wants to have some of that money back in a time of crisis.

If you're about fairness, why not support legislation that eliminates the disproportionate giving/taking of federal benefits based on the tax money the states pay to the federal government?

Because those people in the welfare states are not about fairness, they just don't want their free ride to end and they want to force the donor states to continue propping them up. I say that the welfare states should start pulling their own weight.
Welfare and donor states don't exist. Everything you wrote is a made up fantasy that doesn't exist
 
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hedrick

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Welfare and donor states don't exist. Everything you wrote is a made up fantasy that doesn't exist
You think there's no difference in average income across states? Really.

If you look at how taxes are set up, surely those with higher average income would tend to pay more in taxes, and likely need less for at least some Federal programs.

It's very hard to see how this could *not* happen. It's how our government is set up, based on the idea that richer people should contribute more.

There's also a cross-cultural tendency for poorer and less educated people to be more conservative. On average: there are plenty of rich and educated conservatives.
 
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rjs330

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This article tries to undermine the categorization of certain states as “red” or “blue” by looking at averages from 1980-2013, which is stupid and disingenuous because it ignores the changes in voting habits and party makeup over those 3+ decades. The article itself is 7 years out of date and while there are a couple examples where their complaint is legitimate (e.g. NH), there are others (e.g. MI, WV) where it’s patently absurd.


Strawman. The claim isn’t about who gets the most welfare.


Yes, it is more nuanced than some want to see it as being, but it’s not all that nuanced. As your first article notes, a lot of that spending is defense spending- but that defense spending manifests as huge jobs programs in those communities. Those bases and contractors are often some of the largest employers in those areas and there’s tons of lobbying to keep them open and well-funded. My hometown still hasn’t recovered from BRAC and that was 25 years ago.

That was the point of my post. The issue is far more complicated and nuanced than just "gee more red states get more federal money.

It's very deceptive just to toss that out without any considerations as to the things I linked to. There's much to it. It's a lousy point.
 
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rjs330

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If states need more money they should increase their taxes or cut their spending or borth., The federal government has no business reallocating taxpayer's money from the responsible to the irresponsible. The federal government should not be handing out money to any states for any reason.

Im not so dogmatic for "any" reason, but the reason should be limited to cases of extreme emergencies.
 
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KarateCowboy

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You think there's no difference in average income across states? Really.

If you look at how taxes are set up, surely those with higher average income would tend to pay more in taxes, and likely need less for at least some Federal programs.

It's very hard to see how this could *not* happen. It's how our government is set up, based on the idea that richer people should contribute more.

There's also a cross-cultural tendency for poorer and less educated people to be more conservative. On average: there are plenty of rich and educated conservatives.
This doesn't really address what I was saying.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I don't think Illinois should be helped separately. But the Covid situation has caused a problem for all states. We assume it will be temporary. But if they have to fire a bunch of people, it will make the problem worse. The Federal government doesn't have this issue, because they can borrow. We don't need to do anything special for Illinois. We can treat them like anyplace else. But this isn't the time to fire teachers, police, etc., but states will have to do that.

I would agree that it's not the time to be firing essential workers that happen to be in the public sector.

But per my previous post, Illinois has a big problem with their debt, and they've borrowed and kicked the can down the road so many times that they're the only state in the union that doesn't have at least an "A" credit rating. ...and for the last 20 years, up through the present, the public sector unions have rejected any sort of of negotiating and pension reform.

They're asking for $40 billion, but only about $10 billion is for things that can be considered remotely related to covid-19.

I see this much like a Greece/EU scenario. Austerity measures are sometimes needed, but they need to happen with concessions from the other side that are aimed at addressing the problems that long pre-dated the pandemic.

In Illinois, 60% of public sector/state workers retire with full pensions in their 50's. Another 30% retire between 60-64 with full pensions.

When you look at how they're paying out:
upload_2020-9-19_19-25-57.png


...that's simply not a sustainable model. Allowing someone to retire at age 55, and collect $60k-$70k/year until the day they pass away (which could be 10 years, it could be 25+) is a bubble that has to burst as life expectancies increase.

And the state is still dealing with the fallout from the policies of Gov. Rod Blagojevich who, rather than standing up to the public sector unions' demands (how could he, they're who helped him get elected), had to resort to things like trying to issue, what were basically, junk bonds, and selling and mortgaging state property, as well as shutting down state parks and historic sites, in order to try to fill in budget gaps without cutting the state pension funds...as well as exercising line-item and reduction vetoes to remove his political opponents' "member initiatives" from budget bills.

I know there's a balance to be had when it comes to public sector unions. Obviously we shouldn't be just giving our public teachers, fireman, police, etc... just a $500 watch and a pat on the back after 30 years of service to their communities and leaving them with nothing else. ...but Illinois has swung to far in the other direction, because we also can't be saying "After 30 years of service, you get to collect $60k/year for the next 20-30 years plus full health benefits"


I would say a deal needs to be made. ...and if I were a republican, and in a position of legislative power, my terms of bailing them out would be this:

"Okay, we'll assist with the debt, and help re-fund the pension fund for current retirees who were already promised this or people who are within 10 years of retirement...but moving forward for anyone who's not already retired or within 10 years of retirement, here are the stipulations:

- 10 year cap on pension payouts...meaning, if you put in your 30 and want to retire at 55, that's fine, but those checks will stop showing up when you're 65, and you'll be on social security like private sector retirees at that point"

- 25% of all union dues most go into a 401(k) for the employee who's paying them.

- reform on what union dues can be used for. While it's true that law prohibits unions from using dues to directly fund political efforts that favor one party over another, there's a host of ways they "dance around that line" and indirectly help one party over another. (for instance, they're allowed to transfer money from the union dues to a PAC, that the union itself may also run, with the written consent of the user when they sign on for membership/employment, and that line granting authorization may be buried on page 6 of a packet...they're also allowed to use the money to engage in "political education efforts", , where they don't explicitly endorse a candidate or party, but produce materials that certainly steer people in one direction over another, and non-partisan 'get out and vote!' drives (that just so happen to target demographics that they know lean their way politically))
 
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essentialsaltes

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If states need more money they should increase their taxes or cut their spending or borth., The federal government has no business reallocating taxpayer's money from the responsible to the irresponsible. The federal government should not be handing out money to any states for any reason.

The CARES Act passed with 150,000,000,000 reasons that show the federal government disagrees with you. It passed nearly unanimously in both houses of Congress. It has nothing to do with responsible or irresponsible. All states got access to the fund based on population. The same is true (I imagine) of the bipartisan stimulus bill now in Congress.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Im not so dogmatic for "any" reason, but the reason should be limited to cases of extreme emergencies.

"Extreme emergency" is too vague a term when dealing with government bureaucrats and politicians. They will just define whatever they want to spend money on as an extreme emergency.
 
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grasping the after wind

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The CARES Act passed with 150,000,000,000 reasons that show the federal government disagrees with you. It passed nearly unanimously in both houses of Congress. It has nothing to do with responsible or irresponsible. All states got access to the fund based on population. The same is true (I imagine) of the bipartisan stimulus bill now in Congress.

The federal government doesn't actually hold any opinions as it is not a being but an institution. It is not surprising to me that the politicians in Washington do not agree with me. Are you able to put forward a good argument for their position? The fact they all agree on a position does not mean their position is correct.
 
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rjs330

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I would agree that it's not the time to be firing essential workers that happen to be in the public sector.

But per my previous post, Illinois has a big problem with their debt, and they've borrowed and kicked the can down the road so many times that they're the only state in the union that doesn't have at least an "A" credit rating. ...and for the last 20 years, up through the present, the public sector unions have rejected any sort of of negotiating and pension reform.

They're asking for $40 billion, but only about $10 billion is for things that can be considered remotely related to covid-19.

I see this much like a Greece/EU scenario. Austerity measures are sometimes needed, but they need to happen with concessions from the other side that are aimed at addressing the problems that long pre-dated the pandemic.

In Illinois, 60% of public sector/state workers retire with full pensions in their 50's. Another 30% retire between 60-64 with full pensions.

When you look at how they're paying out:
View attachment 284874

...that's simply not a sustainable model. Allowing someone to retire at age 55, and collect $60k-$70k/year until the day they pass away (which could be 10 years, it could be 25+) is a bubble that has to burst as life expectancies increase.

And the state is still dealing with the fallout from the policies of Gov. Rod Blagojevich who, rather than standing up to the public sector unions' demands (how could he, they're who helped him get elected), had to resort to things like trying to issue, what were basically, junk bonds, and selling and mortgaging state property, as well as shutting down state parks and historic sites, in order to try to fill in budget gaps without cutting the state pension funds...as well as exercising line-item and reduction vetoes to remove his political opponents' "member initiatives" from budget bills.

I know there's a balance to be had when it comes to public sector unions. Obviously we shouldn't be just giving our public teachers, fireman, police, etc... just a $500 watch and a pat on the back after 30 years of service to their communities and leaving them with nothing else. ...but Illinois has swung to far in the other direction, because we also can't be saying "After 30 years of service, you get to collect $60k/year for the next 20-30 years plus full health benefits"


I would say a deal needs to be made. ...and if I were a republican, and in a position of legislative power, my terms of bailing them out would be this:

"Okay, we'll assist with the debt, and help re-fund the pension fund for current retirees who were already promised this or people who are within 10 years of retirement...but moving forward for anyone who's not already retired or within 10 years of retirement, here are the stipulations:

- 10 year cap on pension payouts...meaning, if you put in your 30 and want to retire at 55, that's fine, but those checks will stop showing up when you're 65, and you'll be on social security like private sector retirees at that point"

- 25% of all union dues most go into a 401(k) for the employee who's paying them.

- reform on what union dues can be used for. While it's true that law prohibits unions from using dues to directly fund political efforts that favor one party over another, there's a host of ways they "dance around that line" and indirectly help one party over another. (for instance, they're allowed to transfer money from the union dues to a PAC, that the union itself may also run, with the written consent of the user when they sign on for membership/employment, and that line granting authorization may be buried on page 6 of a packet...they're also allowed to use the money to engage in "political education efforts", , where they don't explicitly endorse a candidate or party, but produce materials that certainly steer people in one direction over another, and non-partisan 'get out and vote!' drives (that just so happen to target demographics that they know lean their way politically))

As far as the retirement piece is concerned I totally disagree. The reason for this is that there is a way to do what they are doing. The problem is not that people are retiring with a good pension. Its all bases upon the way the system is run. In my state we have the same type of program but it's run differently. We retire at 20 years at 50% of our wages. If you put in 40 yrs you get 100%. And we haven't had any issues at all. It's because if the way it's funded. The city or state puts in a share and the employee puts in a share. The way it's run is the share that is put in is based upon all the factors if how much is in the system, how many are retired, how many are slated to retire etc. So your share will go up as more retirements happen. At all keeps in solvent.

It seems to me the Illinois system was not run properly and they were not funding it as they should have been. Again totally IRRESPONSIBLE. Crummy spending and budgeting issues. And we shouldn't be bailing them out.
 
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rjs330

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"Extreme emergency" is too vague a term when dealing with government bureaucrats and politicians. They will just define whatever they want to spend money on as an extreme emergency.

That's a good point. We of course could define what extreme emergencies should entail with debate and probably one that would satisfy everyone. But one we agreed upon.

I'm just not wanting a "we won't help under any reason". I think there would be circumstances we should help.
 
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grasping the after wind

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That's a good point. We of course could define what extreme emergencies should entail with debate and probably one that would satisfy everyone. But one we agreed upon.

I'm just not wanting a "we won't help under any reason". I think there would be circumstances we should help.

As human beings we should always help others . However, the federal government is there to address federal problems on a national scale not internal state problems. State government is empowered with all the necessary tools to be responsible for internal emergencies especially with internal emergencies created by the state government. If citizens of any state wish to chip in to help those in another state there is no law against them doing so but requiring then to do so via federal government is IMO unwise and unfair.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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As human beings we should always help others . However, the federal government is there to address federal problems on a national scale not internal state problems. State government is empowered with all the necessary tools to be responsible for internal emergencies especially with internal emergencies created by the state government. If citizens of any state wish to chip in to help those in another state there is no law against them doing so but requiring then to do so via federal government is IMO unwise and unfair.
This is why we need to end federal taxation and let each state handle its own taxation. This way productive states like New Jersey and New York will keep all those billions that we pay to the federal government and the red states like Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc. can pay their own way instead of leaching off the blue states through federal redistribution of wealth. I would love it, my state would be so wealthy and amazing, we would have to put up a wall around the state to keep out the refugees from the red states.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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This is why we need to end federal taxation and let each state handle its own taxation. This way productive states like New Jersey and New York will keep all those billions that we pay to the federal government and the red states like Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc. can pay their own way instead of leaching off the blue states through federal redistribution of wealth. I would love it, my state would be so wealthy and amazing, we would have to put up a wall around the state to keep out the refugees from the red states.

Some blue states would likely see a net positive from that...however, others (who are in serious budget & debt trouble like Illinois and New Jersey) probably wouldn't like that too much.

California and New York will start liking it less and less as more of the wealthy folks keep leaving the states putting a sizeable dent in their internal revenues
 
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