There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

Archivist · Sep 17, 2020

genez said:
Looks like your eternal reward will be a book of allegories.

An autographed copy, of course!

Why would my eternal reward be a book of allegories? I don’t recall saying that the entire Bible is a book of allegories.

GenemZ · Sep 17, 2020

Archivist said:
Why would my eternal reward be a book of allegories? I don’t recall saying that the entire Bible is a book of allegories.

Too many times its called allegorical when the person is not finding (or, wanting) the needed knowledge to make sense of what was written. Thus... It becomes "allegorized" under the carpet.

God's Word is purposely confusing at times. For it is intentionally a heart 'exposer.' It requires both study and the filling of the Spirit to discover what has been buried, and remains hidden from those it intends to expose.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged
sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12

God is evaluating each one of us constantly. Yet, simultaneously He already knows who we are. He is getting us to come out and be what we choose to be. So, when we are evaluated by Him, we will know He was not just pulling His evaluation out of a hat.

So? The Word by design is intentionally obscured in places, for which understanding is reserved for only those who will do His will for their lives. In a sense.. God is separating the spiritual men from the boys. Its not religion where everyone can memorize and repeat. Its a living and ever growing spiritual life that reveals maturity in what one is able to perceive and understand.. gaining in contentment and peace.

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there
are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt
there have to be differences among you to show which of you have
God’s approval." 1 Cor 11:18-29

Controversy in interpretation is God's tool for perfecting His saints. Why do you think its called "the good fight?" Was that allegorical? Or, not? :angel:

What matters is God's approval, not man's.

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3

What is hidden in God's Word today to a believer may become a bright light to light a city in the future.

grace and peace......

Archivist · Sep 17, 2020

genez said:
Too many times its called allegorical when the person is not finding (or, wanting) the needed knowledge to make sense of what was written. Thus... It becomes "allegorized" under the carpet.

God's Word is purposely confusing at times. For it is intentionally a heart 'exposer.' It requires both study and the filling of the Spirit to discover what has been buried, and remains hidden from those it intends to expose.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged
sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12

God is evaluating each one of us constantly. Yet, simultaneously He already knows who we are. He is getting us to come out and be what we choose to be. So, when we are evaluated by Him, we will know He was not just pulling His evaluation out of a hat.

So? The Word by design is intentionally obscured in places, for which understanding is reserved for only those who will do His will for their lives. In a sense.. God is separating the spiritual men from the boys. Its not religion where everyone can memorize and repeat. Its a living and ever growing spiritual life that reveals maturity in what one is able to perceive and understand.. gaining in contentment and peace.

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there
are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt
there have to be differences among you to show which of you have
God’s approval." 1 Cor 11:18-29

Controversy in interpretation is God's tool for perfecting His saints. Why do you think its called "the good fight?" Was that allegorical? Or, not? What matters is God's approval, not man's.

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3

What is hidden in God's Word today to a believer may become a bright light to light a city in the future.

grace and peace......

And, as I said, I read the two creation stories as allegory. You are free to read them as you wish.

[STAFF EDITED]

GenemZ · Sep 17, 2020

-57 said:
People with an understanding of Hebrew Verb and tenses tell us a "had" is proper.

There is a contradiction with your account as it calls for a date error or tells us God created all the animals twice. I don't think God created all the animals twice.

That's the point.

Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. In God's mind? He "saw" the slain lamb and said it was good.

Likewise... What God sees what is to be? It is already done in God infallible and invincible ways of doing things.

Genesis One.. We are being invited into God's mind to see with Him the things He was creating and what was taking place.

In Genesis Two.. We are made as one standing there and watching what God saw in Genesis One now being made manifest.

What God plans is already done. It can not be stopped from coming into being. For one would have to be greater than God to bring something else about that is otherwise.

Genesis One and Two is an introduction for the believer as to begin to understand the nature of God, not just simply know about what was created.

Chapter Two reveals the omniscience of God as was seen in Chapter One. Seen when compared to Chapter Two.

Lazy minds drop out in this race. Even refusing to be carried over the line when offered. They find this whole thing distasteful. Like a child resenting the authority of his parents demanding that he must stop thinking like a child.

After all.. we are His children.

grace and peace........

Archivist · Sep 17, 2020

genez said:
I did not say that. I was simply stating a principle concerning our spiritual life. In no way am I saying I have to be right. I was only stating that what we see is supposed to happen in the church. Its a part of God's standard operating procedure that He uses to evaluate all of us.

“The Lord’s evaluation will be for those who refuse to accept truth and correction.” Your words.

Believing in a literal interpretation of Genesis is supposed to happen in the church?

GenemZ · Sep 17, 2020

Archivist said:
“The Lord’s evaluation will be for those who refuse to accept truth and correction.” Your words.

Was I claiming immunity from that principle? You keep assuming (it appears) that I think I am above it all, when I show a segment of how God operates in the believer's lives.

Believing in a literal interpretation of Genesis is supposed to happen in the church?

It has... In the original languages it has. Translations as we get them muddy the waters. For, without the one translating explaining what he has found, and why he has concluded the way he has chosen? We are left in the dark too many times. When you sit under someone able to exegete you what I speak of. And, keep in mind. I we are not being truly led of the Holy Spirit we will end up with some form of pseudo exegesis.

It all boils down to the following if we will end up finding what God will require of us to reach full maturity and enjoy partaking in His happiness for us..

Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders.
Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God,
that He may exalt you in due time." 1 Pet 5:5-6

An elder in this case may be younger than you according to human age. For a person can be saved for many years and still remain as a baby in Christ.

Archivist · Sep 17, 2020

genez said:
Was I claiming immunity from that principle? You keep assuming (it appears) that I think I am above it all, when I show a segment of how God operates in the believer's lives.

So you did say what you then denied saying.

So what you are saying as well. Then I guess we just agree to disagree.

It has... In the original languages it has. Translations as we get them muddy the waters. For, without the one translating explaining what he has found, and why he has concluded the way he has chosen? We are left in the dark too many times. When you sit under someone able to exegete you what I speak of. And, keep in mind. I we are not being truly led of the Holy Spirit we will end up with some form of pseudo exegesis.

It all boils down to the following if we will end up finding what God will require of us to reach full maturity and enjoy partaking in His happiness for us..

Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders.
Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God,
that He may exalt you in due time." 1 Pet 5:5-6

An elder in this case may be younger than you according to human age. For a person can be saved for many years and still remain as a baby in Christ.

And the Holy Spirit has told me that it is an allegory.
[STAFF EDITED]

GenemZ · Sep 17, 2020

Archivist said:
I’m not asking you about an allegory. Jesus Christ was very clear—this is my Body, this is my Blood.

All the different foods served for the Passover Seder each had their own symbolic meaning.

I used to partake of the Passover Seder while growing up as a Jew. Each food in the meal was known for being representative and symbolic for what took place while under slavery for the Jews in Egypt.

I do not see why Jesus should suddenly change that pattern of thought for the Seder while partaking the Passover Seder.... He was simply adding something new that was to be also symbolic like the other items before them.

Archivist · Sep 17, 2020

genez said:
Its a simple question. Its a trap as well. Is it not?

The real question I must ask myself. Do I want to take the time to explain something to a person who thinks only allegorically?

If you are asking me? When he spoke of eating his flesh, and drinking his blood? It was a representative metaphor.

Thank you for answering. You read the words of Jesus as being a “representative metaphor.” I read the two conflicting Genesis creation accounts as allegories. We each have our own interpretation of Scripture. We agree to disagree.

ewq1938 · Sep 17, 2020

Dale · Sep 18, 2020

genez said:
So you accept that God created two different races of man? One was created. One was not.

Traditional thinking does not trump sound exegesis. Traditional thinking held to the idea that the world had to be flat. To think its round was "far fetched."

Learn the Hebrew in how it was used. Who can teach you?

I can't make much out of your reply but you are still claiming that God created souls in Genesis 1 and bodies in Genesis 2.

I've given several reasons why this won't work and here is another. In the understanding of the Israelites in the OT, there is no soul fully separate from the body. There isn't "soul" and "body" but "body-soul." In this view, it wouldn't be possible for God to create soul and body at different times.

"<< Quite simply put, when the Hebrew word for “soul” is used, nothing more than the person as such – as human being – is meant. >>

Further,
<< The “soul” is integral to life itself. Thus, there is a relationship between blood and the nephesh. Deuteronomy 12:23 states that “the blood is the life [nephesh].” The “soul,” then, depends on blood for its physical existence. >>

I fully believe that there is a soul apart from the body but this view isn't found in the Old Testament.

Link: Grace Communion International
Soul and Spirit in Scripture | GCI Archive

Dale · Sep 18, 2020

genez said:
So you accept that God created two different races of man? One was created. One was not.

Traditional thinking does not trump sound exegesis. Traditional thinking held to the idea that the world had to be flat. To think its round was "far fetched."

Learn the Hebrew in how it was used. Who can teach you?

genez said:
What would we have if God did not breath into the nostrils of the body in Genesis 2?

Would you have a man?

It does not say that God created the sky. He made the sky out from what had already been created. That is why it does not say "bara." It says instead, 'asah.' That is to let the serious students of the Bible know what was taking place.

Not everything in Genesis One is "bara." Its in Genesis Two we no longer see "bara." Nothing was 'created out from nothing' in Genesis Two.

Its quite simple as long as traditional dogma-bias does not get in the way.

Genez: "So you accept that God created two different races of man? One was created. One was not."

I've never suggested any such thing. I said there were two creation accounts, both legitimate. There are two views of the same creation.

Genez: "Not everything in Genesis One is "bara." Its in Genesis Two we no longer see "bara." Nothing was 'created out from nothing' in Genesis Two."

You are mistaken. The word "bara" does appear in Genesis 2. It appears in the introductory verse, and so it applies to the rest of the second creation story.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

The Hebrew word for "made" here is bara'. If bara' means creation ex nihilo, as you suggest, then the second creation story, with Adam, Eve and Eden, would be creation ex nihilo. However, I believe you are mistaken about this.

I checked the Hebrew lexicons on Blue Letter Bible. Bara' means "create" but it can also mean to cut out, to pare down, or to smooth and polish. It does not necessarily imply creation from nothing.

The commentaries that I've read say that creation ex nihilo was an idea invented by Catholic theologians in the first few centuries after Christ. The Israelite priests who composed the creation accounts in Genesis had no interest in what God created from, whether He created from nothing, from His own Spirit, or from pre-existing matter. The important thing to them is that God created.

I am not opposing the idea of creation from nothing, just observing that you seem to be reading an idea into the text that was actually developed at a later time.

GenemZ · Sep 18, 2020

Dale said:
I can't make much out of your reply but you are still claiming that God created souls in Genesis 1 and bodies in Genesis 2.

Again... Its all about the Hebrew meaning of words. There is one word for "created" used in Genesis One that is only attributed to God alone. That word is "bara." It means to create something out from nothing. For only God can create something out from nothing. Its not used to mean "create" like some artist creating a painting.

In Genesis Two the word "bara" is not used for the body of Adam. For, that body was not created "out from nothing." The Hebrew word used for Adam's body is "jatsar." Which means to "mold and form," which can be used to speak of a creative artist producing a work. The Lord took the elements of the earth and molded and formed them into the body for Adam's soul.

And, even yet. The body of the woman? Its yet another Hebrew word.

That Hebrew word this time is "banah." Which means to build up. For the Lord took the very substance out from Adam's side and built it up into a completed body for the woman's soul. Sort of like when Jesus took the few loaves and kept providing more and more loaves from only a few loaves he originally had.

There is something important about learned the Bible and finding out the meanings of the Hebrew words. Moses chose them to record the creation account, and the Jews who spoke Hebrew did not need anything explained for what was going on in the Creation. The Jews understood. When we read the account in English it leaves much to be desired. It also causes controversies that the Hebrew text would not have allowed for to those knowing the Hebrew.

So be it....

GenemZ · Sep 18, 2020

Dale said:
Genez: "So you accept that God created two different races of man? One was created. One was not."

I've never suggested any such thing. I said there were two creation accounts, both legitimate. There are two views of the same creation.

Genez: "Not everything in Genesis One is "bara." Its in Genesis Two we no longer see "bara." Nothing was 'created out from nothing' in Genesis Two."

You are mistaken. The word "bara" does appear in Genesis 2. It appears in the introductory verse, and so it applies to the rest of the second creation story.

Nothing was "bara" in Genesis Two.

The intro tells us the God at that point had stopped doing any "bara." He rested from all the "bara" he had done (as seen in Genesis One).

Its to let us know that what God "created out from nothing" he was at that point rested from doing. Nothing we find "produced" in Genesis Two is "bana." Nothing.

Dale · Sep 20, 2020

genez said:
So you accept that God created two different races of man? One was created. One was not.

Traditional thinking does not trump sound exegesis. Traditional thinking held to the idea that the world had to be flat. To think its round was "far fetched."

Learn the Hebrew in how it was used. Who can teach you?

Genez: "Traditional thinking does not trump sound exegesis. Traditional thinking held to the idea that the world had to be flat."

Congratulations. You are the first person who ever thought I was a traditionalist.

GenemZ · Sep 20, 2020

Dale said:
Genez: "Traditional thinking does not trump sound exegesis. Traditional thinking held to the idea that the world had to be flat."

Congratulations. You are the first person who ever thought I was a traditionalist.

Thank you. Nice to learn to put you on Ignore so quickly. No wasted time.

Nevada Smith · Sep 20, 2020

Two completely different creations. Genesis 1 KJV 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....." In the first creation God was working with someone, most probably Lucifer before his fall.

Genesis 2 KJV 7 And the Lord God formed man....." In the second version God was working alone.

Philip_B · Sep 20, 2020

Nevada Smith said:
Two completely different creations. Genesis 1 KJV 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....." In the first creation God was working with someone, most probably Lucifer before his fall.

Genesis 2 KJV 7 And the Lord God formed man....." In the second version God was working alone.

I see this post as difficult, largely because I think it is incorrect to think that God created humanity twice. I think it is much more helpful to recognise that their two two oral traditions as stories of origin, and we should value both of them.

GenemZ · Sep 20, 2020

Nevada Smith said:
Two completely different creations. Genesis 1 KJV 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....." In the first creation God was working with someone, most probably Lucifer before his fall.

Genesis 2 KJV 7 And the Lord God formed man....." In the second version God was working alone.

Let us make man in our image is the Trinity (plurality) doing the creating.

Satan can not create something out from nothing. No angel can. They are not God. For it says God created man in his own image. What you claim makes Satan into God!

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

God in that verse appears in a plurality (Elohyim). Satan is not God!

Angels were also created by the Trinity long before man was created...

GenemZ · Sep 20, 2020

Philip_B said:
I see this post as difficult, largely because I think it is incorrect to think that God created humanity twice. I think it is much more helpful to recognise that their two two oral traditions as stories of origin, and we should value both of them.

What was "produced" in Genesis Two was not "created." In Genesis One the souls (male and female) were created - out from nothing - by God.

Those sould required a body. In genesis Two two bodies were provided. The bodies were not created - out from nothing. Instead, the Lord took some earth (which had been created out from nothing) and "molded and formed" a body to make ready for the already created soul.

The souls male and female were created out from nothing. "Bara."

The body for the man was "molded and formed" by means of elements found in the soil. "Jatsar."

Not even the same Hebrew words in Genesis One and Two concerning the bringing of Adam into manifestation in the material world.

There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

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