Covenant and New Covenant theology

mkgal1

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This is the Covenant the Christ changed, Yes? He took over these duties the day John the Baptist baptized Him..
I wouldn't say Jesus "changed" a covenant. He fulfilled it.

Matthew 5:17 ~ Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose
 
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mkgal1

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Its because you don't accept that God had a covenant with the entire nation ever since Moses, as stated in Exodus 19:3-6.

While that covenant was in effect, individual Jews are saved so long as they belong to that nation.
Saved from *what*?

But after the nation has fallen, individual Jews could only be saved, like the rest of us, thru the Body of Christ in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Jesus has always been and will continue to be *the only* way to be saved.

Not ALL Israel is of Israel (Romans 9:6)
 
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Guojing

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Saved from *what*?


Jesus has always been and will continue to be *the only* way to be saved.

Not ALL Israel is of Israel (Romans 9:6)

Saved in terms of being placed in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, after their death.

I already said Body of Christ, so yes, it is still thru Jesus.
 
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mkgal1

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A remnant of Israel did believed. God always had a small group who believed, as Paul explained in Romans 11:1-5.

But the nation, that corporate entity, as a whole has fallen, it will be that same nation, that will accept Jesus and be saved in his 2nd coming, as stated in Romans 11:26
Exactly....there was a remnant saved....so you can't conflate the faithful remnant with the apostate group.

There are two distinct groups - the faithful and apostate.

Those same threads run throughout Scripture. God's mercy runs parallel to His destruction when His people reached the level of full wrath. His warning of that day of the end of the covenant goes back to Deuteronomy.....so it was known.

The separation happened in the first century.....

Jesus said to the Pharisees and scribes:

Luke 11:47-51 ~ Woe to you! You build tombs for the prophets, but it was your fathers who killed them. So you are witnesses consenting to the deeds of your fathers: They killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and others they will persecute.’As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.(h) Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.
 
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mkgal1

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Saved in terms of being placed in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, after their death.

I already said Body of Christ, so yes, it is still thru Jesus.
It can't be both ways. There can't be separate groups to support the belief of the remnant being part of the Body of Christ.....yet at the same time....combining the faithful with the apostate in order to support a future corporate salvation of an undefined "Israel nation" people group.
 
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jgr

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A remnant of Israel did believed. God always had a small group who believed, as Paul explained in Romans 11:1-5.

But the nation, that corporate entity, as a whole has fallen, it will be that same nation, that will accept Jesus and be saved in his 2nd coming, as stated in Romans 11:26

The nation is comprised of the election (aka the remnant) and the rest.

If the nation as a whole has fallen, that means that the election has fallen with it.

Where has Paul said that the election has fallen?
 
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Guojing

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It can't be both ways. There can't be separate groups to support the belief of the remnant being part of the Body of Christ.....yet at the same time....combining the faithful with the apostate in order to support a future corporate salvation of an undefined "Israel nation" people group.

You think its pure coincidence that there is still a country called Israel still with us now, while their great enemies, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans etc have since gone extinct?
 
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Guojing

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The nation is comprised of the election (aka the remnant) and the rest.

If the nation as a whole has fallen, that means that the election has fallen with it.

Where has Paul said that the election has fallen?

Romans 11 explained the difference clearly between the nation and the remnant, you have to read until the end of the chapter.
 
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jgr

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Romans 11 explained the difference clearly between the nation and the remnant, you have to read until the end of the chapter.

You haven't answered the question.

Where has Paul said that the election has fallen?
 
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jgr

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You think its pure coincidence that there is still a country called Israel still with us now, while their great enemies, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans etc have since gone extinct?

Egypt hasn't gone extinct.

Syria hasn't gone extinct.

Israel would go extinct tomorrow if the continuous billions in American aid were withdrawn.
 
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Guojing

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You haven't answered the question.

Where has Paul said that the election has fallen?

The nation has fallen, but he explained in Romans 11:1-5 that there is a remnant from that nation that is saved by grace.
 
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jgr

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The nation has fallen, but he explained in Romans 11:1-5 that there is a remnant from that nation that is saved by grace.

Read it again.

If the nation has fallen, that means that the election has fallen with it.

But the election (remnant) has not fallen, as you agree.

Therefore, the nation has not fallen.

Only "the rest", those who were blinded, (Romans 11:7) within the nation, have fallen.
 
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Guojing

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Read it again.

If the nation has fallen, that means that the election has fallen with it.

But the election (remnant) has not fallen, as you agree.

Therefore, the nation has not fallen.

Only "the rest", those who were blinded, (Romans 11:7) within the nation, have fallen.

As I said, its because you don't even believe God made a covenant with the nation from after he rescued them from Egypt.

So you are unable to accept that it was a corporate covenant made with the entire nation.

Anyway, lets move on from this point.
 
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jgr

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As I said, its because you don't even believe God made a covenant with the nation from after he rescued them from Egypt.

So you are unable to accept that it was a corporate covenant made with the entire nation.

Anyway, lets move on from this point.

Israel was comprised of believers and unbelievers.

Did God covenant with the unbelievers?
 
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Guojing

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Israel was comprised of believers and unbelievers.

Did God covenant with the unbelievers?

Depends on what you meant by unbelievers, so long as animal sacrifices kept being done by the nation Israel during the OT, God accepts the entire nation.

However, an unbeliever can be cut off from the nation in many different ways. If you are cut off, then there goes your salvation, since it was tied to being part of Israel.

There is a reason why Hebrews to Revelations was directed to the nation Israel. You realized that, in those books, salvation was never permanent, which was the feature of what the nation Israel had to deal with.
 
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jgr

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Depends on what you meant by unbelievers, so long as animal sacrifices kept being done by the nation Israel during the OT, God accepts the entire nation.

Did God accept those who ignored their covenant responsibilities, such as animal sacrifices?
 
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Guojing

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Did God accept those who ignored their covenant responsibilities, such as animal sacrifices?

I won't be 100% sure how the entire process work in the OT. Other than individual animal sacrifices, there is also a sacrifice of 2 animals by the high priest during Yom Kipper, as described in Lev 16, for the entire nation.
 
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jgr

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I won't be 100% sure how the entire process work in the OT. Other than individual animal sacrifices, there is also a sacrifice of 2 animals by the high priest during Yom Kipper, as described in Lev 16.

So long as all those are being done, then yes, a Jew will always be a part of the nation.

So something obviously wasn't being done, because God slew thousands of Israelites.

So He obviously wasn't in covenant with those He slew.

So He obviously wasn't accepting the entire nation.

So He obviously was dealing with the Israelites individually, not corporately.
 
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Guojing

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So something obviously wasn't being done, because God slew thousands of Israelites.

So He obviously wasn't in covenant with those He slew.

So He obviously wasn't accepting the entire nation.

So He obviously was dealing with the Israelites individually, not corporately.

If you insist, we can move on from this point
 
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BABerean2

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Israel to me refers to the nation Israel, I don't follow your method of separating true Israel from fake Israel.

We in the Body of Christ are NOT Israel in anyway, whether true or fake.


The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is found below in the first verse of the New Testament.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Once again, you are ignoring the One seed in Galatians 3:16, and the "remnant" of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, and the word "now" in the fulfillment of the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:6, in an attempt to make C.R. Stam's doctrine work.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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