LDS The Claim
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Hrairoo
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The LDS believe that John the apostle and three Nephite apostles from the BoM were changed physically by Christ to have immortality. How was there a Great Apostasy when these four men with Priesthood authority were still on the Earth and had possession of the special keys? They cannot both be true; either the authority was lost from the earth or a Restoration was not necessary because priesthood holders still in possession of that power were still alive on the Earth.
If they were charged with bringing souls to Christ and yet still allowed the world to fall into this apostasy, then how did they fail? Why did they fail Christ?
If they were charged with bringing souls to Christ and yet still allowed the world to fall into this apostasy, then how did they fail? Why did they fail Christ?
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Ye, certain Protestants think that there is a priesthood of all believers and that's it. Catholics and the Orthodox accept the priesthood of all believers and also know that the priesthood of Melchizedek, the priesthood Jesus had, continues on. The LDS seems to think the Aaronic or Levitical priesthoods continue on too.
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He is the way
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The priesthood was still on the earth when Jesus was born, but it was taken from the earth due to corruption.
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Why mention the Bible that Mormons claim can cause people to stumble:
1 Nephi 13
29 ...because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
And Joseph Smith called our God "a monster!"
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He is the way
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They were NOT men they are translated beings like Elijah and can not be killed. Neither are they resurrected beings, but they will be once they are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The priesthood power was taken away from MAN not translated beings.
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He is the way
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The Bible is mostly right, but it does cause people to stumble because they aren't into works as they should be.
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dzheremi
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If anyone were to visit St. Peter's in Rome they could find the following plaque which is a list of all the Popes which are buried there, together with the year of their passing:
In the Holy Land, there are numerous plaques and such likewise noting where local legend says that a significant event in the history of the Christian faith took place. For instance, here is a plaque found in St. Mark's monastery (the center of the Syriac Orthodox presence in the city of Jerusalem) which notes that this is the location where in the first century the apostles met and held the first Eucharistic meal (a.k.a. the last supper), and where the first Church in the city was subsequently dedicated by the apostles, which was rebuilt several times since the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 73 AD:
While it was only (re)discovered under some plaster during a renovation of the monastery in 1940, the plaque itself (as in, the actual inscribed piece of stone that you can see above) dates back to approximately 1520 AD, which is notable only in the sense that even if someone comes from another Christian tradition that casts doubt on Syriac Orthodox tradition or its place in Jerusalem, there is no debating that it predates the birth of Mormonism by about three centuries, and hence the tradition it records predates Mormonism.
So it is with all particular Christian churches or traditions that predate the 1830 founding of Mormonism (or 1822, if we wish to give room for Mormonism's own foundational myth which says that JS first discovered the 'golden plates' in September of that year). This is how it is that we can have so many people in this thread or just in the world in general who reject any false choice which would force us to be Roman Catholic if we aren't going to be Mormon, and yet still insist with ample reason that whatever choice we do make instead is still much better rooted in history and reality than Mormonism will ever be. (As Catholicism itself also is, of course, even if it's not convincing to everyone; at least it's based on something that doesn't rely on God not knowing what he's doing and/or picking incompetent apostles to spread his message.)
This is the kind of intellectual integrity and mental flexibility you are allowed to have when your faith doesn't depend on the hypothesized existence of a set of golden plates that no one has ever seen, or on the unquestionable personal witness of one man that he saw God (or 'God and Jesus', or 'two angelic beings', etc. -- pick whichever version suits you) and was told XYZ. Those of us who live in the world as it actually is may not always agree with one another, but no matter where you look in history (whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Nestorian), what you find there proves that Mormonism is an utter fraud, because the 'Great Apostasy' it relies on to justify its own existence simply never happened. The Church was never 'taken from the earth' or whatever the exact wording is. You really don't have to be Catholic to see that -- just observant in the more general sense.
In the Holy Land, there are numerous plaques and such likewise noting where local legend says that a significant event in the history of the Christian faith took place. For instance, here is a plaque found in St. Mark's monastery (the center of the Syriac Orthodox presence in the city of Jerusalem) which notes that this is the location where in the first century the apostles met and held the first Eucharistic meal (a.k.a. the last supper), and where the first Church in the city was subsequently dedicated by the apostles, which was rebuilt several times since the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 73 AD:
While it was only (re)discovered under some plaster during a renovation of the monastery in 1940, the plaque itself (as in, the actual inscribed piece of stone that you can see above) dates back to approximately 1520 AD, which is notable only in the sense that even if someone comes from another Christian tradition that casts doubt on Syriac Orthodox tradition or its place in Jerusalem, there is no debating that it predates the birth of Mormonism by about three centuries, and hence the tradition it records predates Mormonism.
So it is with all particular Christian churches or traditions that predate the 1830 founding of Mormonism (or 1822, if we wish to give room for Mormonism's own foundational myth which says that JS first discovered the 'golden plates' in September of that year). This is how it is that we can have so many people in this thread or just in the world in general who reject any false choice which would force us to be Roman Catholic if we aren't going to be Mormon, and yet still insist with ample reason that whatever choice we do make instead is still much better rooted in history and reality than Mormonism will ever be. (As Catholicism itself also is, of course, even if it's not convincing to everyone; at least it's based on something that doesn't rely on God not knowing what he's doing and/or picking incompetent apostles to spread his message.)
This is the kind of intellectual integrity and mental flexibility you are allowed to have when your faith doesn't depend on the hypothesized existence of a set of golden plates that no one has ever seen, or on the unquestionable personal witness of one man that he saw God (or 'God and Jesus', or 'two angelic beings', etc. -- pick whichever version suits you) and was told XYZ. Those of us who live in the world as it actually is may not always agree with one another, but no matter where you look in history (whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Nestorian), what you find there proves that Mormonism is an utter fraud, because the 'Great Apostasy' it relies on to justify its own existence simply never happened. The Church was never 'taken from the earth' or whatever the exact wording is. You really don't have to be Catholic to see that -- just observant in the more general sense.
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dzheremi
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What an odd contention: the Bible is 'mostly' right, because not everyone agrees with Mormonism's emphasis on works in the process of salvation.
So if everyone agreed with Mormonism that salvation comes "after all that you can do", would that magically change the scriptures so as to make them completely right, instead of just 'mostly'?
I wasn't aware that in the Mormon view the Bible is to be treated like one of those Magic Eye books from the 1990s, where it changes depending on what whoever's looking at it sees in it.
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mmksparbud
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He is the way
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I believe the priesthood was taken away.If anyone were to visit St. Peter's in Rome they could find the following plaque which is a list of all the Popes which are buried there, together with the year of their passing:
In the Holy Land, there are numerous plaques and such likewise noting where local legend says that a significant event in the history of the Christian faith took place. For instance, here is a plaque found in St. Mark's monastery (the center of the Syriac Orthodox presence in the city of Jerusalem) which notes that this is the location where in the first century the apostles met and held the first Eucharistic meal (a.k.a. the last supper), and where the first Church in the city was subsequently dedicated by the apostles, which was rebuilt several times since the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 73 AD:
While it was only (re)discovered under some plaster during a renovation of the monastery in 1940, the plaque itself (as in, the actual inscribed piece of stone that you can see above) dates back to approximately 1520 AD, which is notable only in the sense that even if someone comes from another Christian tradition that casts doubt on Syriac Orthodox tradition or its place in Jerusalem, there is no debating that it predates the birth of Mormonism by about three centuries, and hence the tradition it records predates Mormonism.
So it is with all particular Christian churches or traditions that predate the 1830 founding of Mormonism (or 1822, if we wish to give room for Mormonism's own foundational myth which says that JS first discovered the 'golden plates' in September of that year). This is how it is that we can have so many people in this thread or just in the world in general who reject any false choice which would force us to be Roman Catholic if we aren't going to be Mormon, and yet still insist with ample reason that whatever choice we do make instead is still much better rooted in history and reality than Mormonism will ever be. (As Catholicism itself also is, of course, even if it's not convincing to everyone; at least it's based on something that doesn't rely on God not knowing what he's doing and/or picking incompetent apostles to spread his message.)
This is the kind of intellectual integrity and mental flexibility you are allowed to have when your faith doesn't depend on the hypothesized existence of a set of golden plates that no one has ever seen, or on the unquestionable personal witness of one man that he saw God (or 'God and Jesus', or 'two angelic beings', etc. -- pick whichever version suits you) and was told XYZ. Those of us who live in the world as it actually is may not always agree with one another, but no matter where you look in history (whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Nestorian), what you find there proves that Mormonism is an utter fraud, because the 'Great Apostasy' it relies on to justify its own existence simply never happened. The Church was never 'taken from the earth' or whatever the exact wording is. You really don't have to be Catholic to see that -- just observant in the more general sense.
Upvote
0
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He is the way
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The unfortunate thing is that if people understood the Bible correctly they would see that salvation is indeed based on works and grace, not just grace.What an odd contention: the Bible is 'mostly' right, because not everyone agrees with Mormonism's emphasis on works in the process of salvation.
So if everyone agreed with Mormonism that salvation comes "after all that you can do", would that magically change the scriptures so as to make them completely right, instead of just 'mostly'?
I wasn't aware that in the Mormon view the Bible is to be treated like one of those Magic Eye books from the 1990s, where it changes depending on what whoever's looking at it sees in it.
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He is the way
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They are seen, heard and doing the work of God. They just are not recognized.
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From Search These Commandments:
President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).
How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:
“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....
“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....
“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153
The Mormon jesus had to work really hard to become fully god.
"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws."
Miltom R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51
"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434
Peter1000 said:
Jesus was fully human.
Until he was crucified and was resurrected, he was not fully God. There are many scriptures that testify of that. Scriptures from the bible that testify of this very doctrine.
Here is just one:
Luke 13:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
You cannot say that Jesus was fully God before he was fully perfected. Right?
Are the Two Natures of Jesus Denied by Mormons?
President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).
How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:
“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....
“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....
“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153
The Mormon jesus had to work really hard to become fully god.
"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws."
Miltom R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51
"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434
Peter1000 said:
Jesus was fully human.
Until he was crucified and was resurrected, he was not fully God. There are many scriptures that testify of that. Scriptures from the bible that testify of this very doctrine.
Here is just one:
Luke 13:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
You cannot say that Jesus was fully God before he was fully perfected. Right?
Are the Two Natures of Jesus Denied by Mormons?
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dzheremi
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Salvation is in the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Who would be so demented as to divide these things pertaining to Him, saying that this over here is a work, while that over there is grace, etc.?
You are putting your phony baloney Mormon occultic temple work matrix over the scriptures and then saying that the rest of us can't understand them because we don't have that same set of presuppositions informing our reading. Thank God for that.
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