Protestantism has done more harm than good.

AV1611VET said:

As long as they have their Life Preserver!

Or, more appropriately, their Life Preserver has them!

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Quite so. Denominations and theology do not save. A heart inclined to God will save you.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
Lumen gentium

The Barbarian said:

Quite so. Denominations and theology do not save. A heart inclined to God will save you.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
Lumen gentium

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We don't believe in sacraments.

We believe in two ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's Table.

truefiction1 said:

Is there any ancient Christian Body Whose Church is not an "ism" then?

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Read Acts Chapter 2 onwards. That's what the real church looks like. The church is the body of Christ. How can it possibly be divided? Only if people choose to splinter into self centred cliques. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for exactly that problem.

Denominations are inevitable because people put being "right" above being "alive". My small circle of Christian friends includes a Catholic woman, who is schizophrenic and also born again. We disagree on doctrine - she prays to Mary, for example. But we can have fellowship on the basis of who we are in Christ, not on the basis of doctrine. Yes, correct doctrine is important. God can and will correct our doctrines. I've had many wrong beliefs corrected over the decades. Yet we should still be able to fellowship with others on the basis of what we agree on, rather than split over what we do not agree about.

Inkfingers said:

Essentially I'm wondering if hundreds of denominations, with dozens of versions of the Bible, has resulted in confusion and (in response) apostacy; whether into heretical denominations or fully out of any semblance of the Church whatsoever.

People keep telling me that scripture is protected but it cannot be protected when there are literally dozens of different versions of the Bible. Of course, they claim that their favourite one is the special version, but heck they can't all be right can they...

So I'm calling out Protestantism as doing more harm than good because it makes a chaos and confusion of matters that shatters the Church and drives people away.

What say you all?

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Do you want everyone to be wrong simultaneously, rather than leaving for the freedom for some to discover what is correct when the home base is wrong? We are not under Law any longer.

Jesus warned about the future church when he said the following.




Many believers will seek their own "brand of religion" and end up destroying the spiritual life we were given at regeneration! The wrong choices they choose from are a "broad and wide" selection of theologies men have devised and prefer to believe.






If one Church solely organized and dictated for all what's to be believed? There could not be even a few who will find truth and life in their generation. Everyone would be dulled down and unified into the same errors. Tyranny. Jesus said that only a few will find it. Then, how can one church impose for all?

Men's egos (and, demons always working in the background on keeping men from truth) is why we have many denominations.

I would rather have freedom having the few find life, like Jesus said. Than one imposing church making everyone miserable except those their imposition personally pleases.. At least when we have freedom (and many denominations) the pseudo happiness that each teaching's delusion brings is still superior to what oppression would bring to many coming from one dictating church for all.

Paul said we are supposed to have disagreements! For, God tests and approves of those who find truth in spite of the conflicts. For those who are truly being led of the Spirit will always land with their feet on the ground.



Those who do not want to do their own thinking (which is demanding a believer to take responsibility and accountability for himself before God) will always want someone telling them what they are to think. In contrast to that? A good, "Spirit anointed pastor-teacher" doing his job faithfully, will keep teaching what is needed to enable his hearers know what is needed to do our own thinking with. Thinking sound doctrine with the Spirit solves real problems.

Christianity is about Freedom. Its not a religion. Religion wants to control minds and deny divergence. Genuine Christianity is spiritual and wants to keep on giving truth that will be needed to keep one free. Especially free from those who suffer from power/control lust.

Jesus said that Truth will make a believer free. Freedom from religion. So God gives all the freedom that will guarantee that all will seek and find what ever it is they truly desire... be it right, or error. Those who choose correctly will receive God's approval. 1 Cor 11:19

grace and peace........

doctorwho29 said:

And what of Saul trying to talk to Samuel? That was a huge sin. And yeah we can ask for prayers from others but others still living. I'm not saying saints aren't having the times of their lives in Heaven but their work is done. "Well done good and faithful servant."

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He was actually going to a witch and talking through here and consensus is that "Samuel" was not a human but a demon. In any case we do not communicate with the very much alive Saints in Heaven but just like I would ask you for prayer we ask Saints. There is no communication with dead
people and the Bible tells us that we are surrounded by Saints in Hebrews 12:1 and Revelation 5:8,Revelation 8:3-4 indicates that Saints are offering up to God our prayers down hear.

doctorwho29 said:

As for Bread and Wine, I see zero reason to believe that it is anything but that. Jesus used parables and metaphor ALL the time. Why not here? Why is this the big exception? Catholics have tried to explain but never successfully and they never will.

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Christ was very explicit when He said that the elements were His Body and Bread, it was not a parable nor symbol. You see if the Eucharist was just a symbol there would be no reason in John 6:50-51 when Christ told those followed Him that to have eternal life you must eat of Him and many left Him then and He did not stop them. Then if the Eucharist was symbolic it would be silly for anyone to get sick because who cares how one takes it, except St. Paul himself says many of you are sick because you take unworthy, a mere symbol is not going to make anyone sick.

doctorwho29 said:

Not works eh? Then way are the Sacraments held in such high esteem? Why is baptism required to go to Heaven?

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Baptism is not a work of man but of God, it is the Grace of a new life that God gives when someone comes to be Baptized. Baptism serves a similar function as circumcision did in the OT, the entry in God's covenant. There are many believers who were never Baptized that entered Heaven, Baptism is normative but even then there are exceptions. As in Baptism it is a work of God that confers Grace so do all the other Sacraments, not a work of man but a work of God that confers God's Grace upon the person.

Catholics believe that only Christ saves apart from any works.

I think I shall leave the thread because things like this thread tend to turn in Catholic bashing. Go with God

AV1611VET said:

We don't believe in sacraments.

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Jesus does.
Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

The Barbarian said:

Jesus does.
Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

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Is foot washing a sacrament too?

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

AV1611VET said:

Is foot washing a sacrament too?

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No, for the reasons Jesus gave. "This is my body." "Do this in rememberance of me."

Aussie Pete said:

Read Acts Chapter 2 onwards. That's what the real church looks like. The church is the body of Christ. How can it possibly be divided? Only if people choose to splinter into self centred cliques. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for exactly that problem.

Denominations are inevitable because people put being "right" above being "alive". My small circle of Christian friends includes a Catholic woman, who is schizophrenic and also born again. We disagree on doctrine - she prays to Mary, for example. But we can have fellowship on the basis of who we are in Christ, not on the basis of doctrine. Yes, correct doctrine is important. God can and will correct our doctrines. I've had many wrong beliefs corrected over the decades. Yet we should still be able to fellowship with others on the basis of what we agree on, rather than split over what we do not agree about.

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Some people lie about Who Christ is. Should we also fellowship with them? What do you think the Apostles would have done about people lying about Who Christ is? Would they remain in fellowship with the Apostles, or would the liars "go out" from them, taking their demonic doctrines with them? Is honoring the ever-virgin Mary as the Mother of God and asking for her intercessory prayers a demonic doctrine? Some say that it is. Should anyone who belongs to the Church of the Apostles be fellowshiping with anyone who says that to honor Mary the Mother of God the Word and ask for her intercessory prayers is evil? I don't know how I could, because what fellowship has truth with lies? There is a reason that we insist that people confess Orthodox doctrine prior to Communing with us. There is no such thing as "Orthodoxism", only Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is defended by forbidding anyone teaching unorthodox doctrine from Communing with orthodox believers. Just saying.

doctorwho29 said:

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. I've heard multiple explanations for "water and the spirit" and not all say baptism is required.

The Bible says all men are to face death once and then face judgement. There is no salvation beyond death.

That doesn't mean the Early Church was always right. Even in the Bible, the Disciples argued over all sorts of things and tried to require circumcision for Christians.

Ok a decent answer on the sacraments

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Yeah the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized but why test God? Why risk it? If baptism is available and you believe just do it. If you come to Christ at your dying moments (like the thief on the cross) we believe God is merciful. But why risk it?
Prayer transcends time and space. Prayer for the dead is asking Christ to have mercy on the souls of the departed at the time of judgment.
Paul prays for the dead in 2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.

18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

But (and this is a big but) we believers still must try to live in a way that pleases God the best way we can.

Yes, the early church argued about many things but with the guidance of church history (before the Bible was compiled together and the biblical canon was written down), the early church councils, and the rejection of early Christian cults (different than the early Church and how some people state that early Christianity was a cult into itself) such as Gnosticism, we can discern that the Church and its believers did pray for the departed.

Jamdoc said:

No idea, but you have to accept that Paganism infiltrated Christianity. The word "Easter" comes from Ishtar after all. Rosary Beads also come from paganism (Jesus Himself said not to use vain repetitions in Matthew 6:7)

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I’m not catholic but the rosary is a wonderful way to understand the major events in the life of Christ. And if you fully pray with your heart, it’s not a vain repetition. If your heart isn’t in it and you’re just going through the motions, any and all prayer is a vain repetition (even the our father prayer which Protestants say). Finally, Buddhist chants such as Myōhō Renge Kyō or Oṃ Maṇi Padme Hūṃ and Hindu chants such as Hare Krishna or Om are all vain repetitions because they are mantras. They don’t even think when they’re saying them because that’s the point. It’s the sound that’s important not what they’re saying but how they are saying it.
This is an important distinction from the rosary as you (are supposed to) focus on the life of Christ.

Jamdoc said:

.. all repetitive prayers are vain. Read the rest of that verse


People repeat the same prayer thinking that the repetitions make them heard. Jesus said

Then He gives the Lord's prayer, no repetitive requests, full of adoration of God.

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even the Lord’s Prayer can be vainly repeated.

Bipolargirl said:

even the Lord’s Prayer can be vainly repeated.

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Yes.
Imagine having a relationship with someone that read from a script whenever they talked to you. We talk to God as if we were telemarketers. They always call during meals too. - lol

Der Alte said:

Seems like you did not understand my post. If anything pagan was being brought into the church at any time, as someone has suggested, where were the faithful Christians protesting?
Some folks accuse Constantine of paganizing the church. If that is true why is there no record of 100s-1000s of faithful Christian protesting?

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Protesting is not a Christian response. So no, you won't see any.

AV1611VET said:

We don't believe in sacraments.

We believe in two ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's Table.

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And the ordinances are ceremonies. A ceremony being an outward sign of an inward reality. Which is why many Protestants don't do infant baptisms, but prefer baby dedications.

Albion said:

It's unusual.

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How many different churches have you visited?
What is your unbiased exposure to the catholic church?
Meaning, how many randomly chosen catholic churches have you visited?

SkyWriting said:

Protesting is not a Christian response. So no, you won't see any.

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What's the alternative?

Saint Steven said:

What's the alternative?

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Leaving the specific church or the entire faith. Protesting is not a Christian response so not seeing protesting is not a correct point. Even pro-life groups don't protest very much or very often or in substantial numbers. Christians have never protested in great numbers for any reason.

SkyWriting said:

Leaving the specific church or the entire faith. Protesting is not a Christian response so not seeing protesting is not a correct point. Even pro-life groups don't protest very much or very often or in substantial numbers. Christians have never protested in great numbers for any reason.

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What does that say about Protestantism? How is leaving not a protest?

Saint Steven said:

What does that say about Protestantism? How is leaving not a protest?

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Leaving is definitely a well-documented protest.