Covenant and New Covenant theology

Guojing said:

The new covenant has not been made yet, Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It is still coming in the future.

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So how did Christianity/the Church even begin? What's the entire book of Acts? This statement completely dismisses all that Jesus had accomplished.

What dispensationalism does - by conflating ALL of old covenant Israel (corrupt and righteous/faithful) - basically deletes the entire New Testament as if Jesus wasn't Messiah and puts off the coming of Messiah to the future.

Corrupt Israel has been cut off the metaphorical olive tree (so that's who "fell").. ....but not ALL Israel was corrupt (the faithful are our origin).

mkgal1 said:

How else can a person interpret what Paul had written about the Judaizers? And that's the point - they were NOT promoting obedience to God (because God isn't interested in outward obedience to external rituals while their hearts are far from God).

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I think there are several huge deceptions that has infiltrated modern religions. In part because Jesus Himself said there were, but also because if you listen to modern religious voices, they teach so many things that are not aligned with what Jesus taught.

One such deception is that the Pharisees were obedient to God in one form or another.

I have studied this religious philosophy for years and the Bible teaches just the opposite. I am sure you will disagree, again, but I thought it prudent to explain the reason for my Faith.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

Consider the implications of such a Command by the Christ Jesus Himself. What did the Pharisees and Scribes have, that men could possible need, that Jesus the Christ Himself would Command, not only His Disciples, but also the multitudes who believed in Him to go listen to them, but not only hear them, but HE also Commanded them to "DO" what they bid them to do?

What did the Scribes have that Jesus taught these men needed, so much so that HE Commanded them to go listen and DO what they said? Lord that you would consider and answer this question.

I think it is because of the teaching of Moses.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But it would be interesting to hear your take.

Jesus goes on.

"but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

So Jesus here isn't telling us of some hidden resentment or unbelieving heart that was far from God. He is saying don't follow their "Works", outward works. We can't see their hearts, but we can see what they "DO". So Jesus is saying they Claim/say to be obedient, or following the Law of Moses, but they "Do not".

In Matt. 15 Jesus defines this even more.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, (Not their outward "Works" as many imply) and honoureth me with their lips; (Not their "outward obedience to external rituals"), but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So it would be truth to say they "Read from Moses about the Christ and HIS Instructions", but they rejected His instructions, and created their own. Is He not saying the same things in Matt. 23?

4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, (Commandments an Doctrines of men) and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matthew 23:27 ~ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of impurity. ​

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When Paul wrote to the church in Galatia....he asked who had bewitched them into turning back to relying on circumcision, dietary restrictions, and holy days and feasts. This wasn't an encouragement to obey God from the Judaizers. It was a denial of Jesus' resurrection and fulfilled prophecies.

Galatians 3:1 ~ O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.​

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And yet Paul said their Circumcision was counted as uncircumcision because they were disobedient.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

I'm sorry, you keep implying that the Jews who murdered Jesus and Stephen were obedient to God's Laws, Circumcision, God's definition of Clean and unclean, Holy and unholy etc. And that Paul and Peter preached against these Commandments and Judgments of God. And the verses you use to support your philosophy doesn't really seem to support it when examined and compared to the rest of the scriptures.

And when I question you, like your interpretation of Gal. 4: 8&9, you seem to just ignore the questions.

Oh Well, this has kept me in the Word anyway. Surely someone might see the exchange and be encouraged. God's Word doesn't return void.

Thanks for the exercise anyway. A Good thing to be thinking about on this Saturday.

mkgal1 said:

I was wondering the same thing - why this division is being made between all of Israel and just the Levites. There was a distinction made with how the physical land was divided....so maybe that's being used to support this belief (not sure)....but mainly I think the motive is to keep the ten commandments (and perhaps more laws that Moses had interpreted) out of what was obsolete in order to assert that we are obligated to continue to keep the laws of Moses.

The problem is....the entire purpose of a covenant mediator was for this human to be the interpreter of God's laws to humanity. Adam & Eve were covenant mediators.....so was Noah....Abraham.....and King David. They were all priestly in their roles. Now Christ Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant....which that office includes King and High Priest.....(the only) perfect interpreter of God’s law. IOW.....Jesus fulfilled what imperfect humanity could not. That's progressive covenantalism in a nutshell.

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There is another possibility that we might want to consider. In the Holy Scriptures that Paul placed his truth in;

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

there is an example of the very first deception that the Spirit of the Christ had written for us. In this example, satan used some of God's Words to deceive Eve into rejecting the Judgments and Commandments of God, and to create her own Judgments.

I think it is important to think about this as well.

God said if she ate of the fruit, she would die.

Satan convinced her God was telling her a lie. "you shall surely not die".

God said don't eat of the fruit.

satan convinced her not only to eat of the fruit of which God said not to eat, but also convinced her to spread this disobedience onto others so that they would die as well.

God loved Adam and Eve and wanted what was best for them, and gave them instructions to this end.

satan convinced Eve that God's Commandment made her Blind, and that she could only see if she rejected His instructions.

what if satan is still doing the same thing now that it did then?

What if Paul is speaking the truth when he says satan is disguised as "ministers of Righteousness" and is still Using some of God's Words to deceive men, who are then convinced to share the deception with others.Think about it.

The Christ says the Sabbath is made for man.

Modern religions say it was only made for men of a certain DNA.

God says HIS Laws are for men's own good.

Modern religions preach that God's Laws are a Yoke of Bondage that kills us.

The Christ promised in the New Covenant to place God's Laws on the hearts of His People.

Modern religions preach that God's Laws have become obsolete in the New Covenant.

I could fill an entire book with examples of the difference between the religious philosophies of men, and what the Holy Scriptures teach.

And every time, EVERY TIME, it is about convincing others that God lied to those HE rescued from Egypt.

Maybe there is such a thing as "progressive covenantalism", but to accept it, one must first be convinced that the God of the Bible is not telling us the truth.

Certainly food for thought.

mkgal1 said:

Your stamina with this whole "going through" issue is pretty impressive JGR. You get a virtual standing ovation from me.

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Hey thanks mkgal1. I've seen as much and more stamina demonstrated by yourself many times.

So many of these "dispenclaims" are so astonishing that they have to be pursued without letup.

Thanks again.

Studyman said:

I'm sorry, you keep implying that the Jews who murdered Jesus and Stephen were obedient to God's Laws

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Actually....I'm NOT saying that (those were the words you used). I posted that the
corrupt scribes and Pharisees were an example of legalism....and that Jesus pronounced that woes awaited them.

Studyman said:

Maybe there is such a thing as "progressive covenantalism", but to accept it, one must first be convinced that the God of the Bible is not telling us the truth.

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How so?

Studyman said:

There is another possibility that we might want to consider. In the Holy Scriptures that Paul placed his truth in;

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

there is an example of the very first deception that the Spirit of the Christ had written for us. In this example, satan used some of God's Words to deceive Eve into rejecting the Judgments and Commandments of God, and to create her own Judgments.

I think it is important to think about this as well.

God said if she ate of the fruit, she would die.

Satan convinced her God was telling her a lie. "you shall surely not die".

God said don't eat of the fruit.

satan convinced her not only to eat of the fruit of which God said not to eat, but also convinced her to spread this disobedience onto others so that they would die as well.

God loved Adam and Eve and wanted what was best for them, and gave them instructions to this end.

satan convinced Eve that God's Commandment made her Blind, and that she could only see if she rejected His instructions.

what if satan is still doing the same thing now that it did then?

What if Paul is speaking the truth when he says satan is disguised as "ministers of Righteousness" and is still Using some of God's Words to deceive men, who are then convinced to share the deception with others.Think about it.

The Christ says the Sabbath is made for man.

Modern religions say it was only made for men of a certain DNA.

God says HIS Laws are for men's own good.

Modern religions preach that God's Laws are a Yoke of Bondage that kills us.

The Christ promised in the New Covenant to place God's Laws on the hearts of His People.

Modern religions preach that God's Laws have become obsolete in the New Covenant.

I could fill an entire book with examples of the difference between the religious philosophies of men, and what the Holy Scriptures teach.

And every time, EVERY TIME, it is about convincing others that God lied to those HE rescued from Egypt.

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Maybe I missed it - but BABerean2 raised the question as to why there would be an attempt to separate the Levites from the entire Israelite assembly pertaining to the Sinai Covenant....and i don't see that addressed in all this.

A passage that (in my reading/interpreting anyway) destroys the staunch corporate view of Israel that refuses to recognize the faithful remnant within is this (long before Mt Sinai) this is written:

Covenant, not race, has always been the defining mark of the true Israel of God.

mkgal1 said:

Maybe I missed it - but BABerean2 raised the question as to why there would be an attempt to separate the Levites from the entire Israelite assembly pertaining to the Sinai Covenant....and i don't see that addressed in all this.

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Duet. 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

Studyman said:

Duet. 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

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I mentioned that in my post (that I suspected that's what's being pointed to for support of the belief of exclusion from the Mosaic Covenant) - but that doesn't exclude the Levites from the Israelites in the Mosaic covenant.

That was one clause or condition of the overall covenant. In fact....the point that this is written as part of the conditions demonstrates the Levites as being *included* in the Mosaic Sinai Covenant.

mkgal1 said:

How so?

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There are many, but here is one.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Studyman said:

Maybe there is such a thing as "progressive covenantalism", but to accept it, one must first be convinced that the God of the Bible is not telling us the truth.

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Studyman said:

There are many, but here is one.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

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That doesn't explain to me what you wrote. It's what you meant that I'm trying to understand.

mkgal1 said:

I mentioned that in my post (that I suspected that's what's being pointed to for support of the belief of exclusion from the Mosaic Covenant) - but that doesn't exclude the Levites from the Israelites in the Mosaic covenant.

That was one clause or condition of the overall covenant. In fact....the point that this is written as part of the conditions demonstrates the Levites as being *included* in the Mosaic Sinai Covenant.

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I don't know if you are just not reading my posts, or don't care about the Scriptures I post, or if I am just not explaining myself careful enough. I'll try again.

Ex. 6:2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. (With Abraham)

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it "you" for an heritage: I am the LORD.

So I believe this teaches us that God furthered His Covenant of Abraham on to the Children of Israel, the same way HE furthered this same Covenant onto Isaac, Jacob.

Duet. 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

The Covenant God made with Abraham was furthered on to the Children of Israel as you can see above. The "First Covenant" God actually made with Israel, apart from Abraham's Covenant, was with Levi on Israel's behalf. It was a Temporary Covenant, which dealt with the administration of God's Laws, Statutes, and Commandments Abraham obeyed, (Book of the Law) and provided for the Atonement of transgressions of these Laws until the Creator of this Covenant became the High Priest Himself. You do believe the Christ knew HE would become the High Priest when He Separate Levi from the inheritance promised to Israel and gave him the Levitical Priesthood, don't you?


This Covenant with Levi consisted of a Sanctuary, Priesthood duties and administration of God's Laws. Laws Abraham was not subject to. He was Justified "apart" from this Law.

The New Covenant, according to the Creator of the New Covenant, dealt with only these priesthood duties as I have shown you. The Commandments, Statutes and Laws of God are to be written on the hearts of God's People, as the Holy Scriptures teach.

Heb. 7-10 goes into great detail explaining this. I asked many modern religious men to show me in either the Promise of the New Covenant by it's Creator, or in Hebrews chapter 7 thru chapter 10, where there is any mention of any of God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments or Commandments, apart from the Levitical Priesthood, that passed away, becoming obsolete, or otherwise relegated as void and no longer relevant in a believers life. But neither you, nor any other person can find one place.

I have asked for any Prophesy in the Law and Prophets, which foretell of the dismissal, removal, destruction or change in God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws and Judgments, other than the Priesthood duties which the Christ promised to take over in Jer. 31,. The removal of God's Judgments and Laws would be a pretty BIG Deal, YES? Surely God would have shown this event through HIS Prophets.

Again, not one prophesy, not even one implication that the Christ, the Messiah, would come and make void, make obsolete, take away or otherwise destroy even ONE of God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws or Judgments.

Actually just the opposite as I am glad to show you in the Holy Scriptures, should you want to see them. "and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

And Lastly, the Holy Christ Himself, the Creator of the Covenant with Levi, Flat out says, in plain and clear understanding, in every translation I have checked.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

This is the Covenant the Christ changed, Yes? He took over these duties the day John the Baptist baptized Him..

So for me to accept you and BABerean2's religious philosophy regarding the Christ's New Covenant, I would have to believe this Christ was not telling me the truth. That HE forgot to inspire HIS Prophets to foretell of a time when God's Commandments, Statutes, and Laws would become obsolete, and that Levi wasn't separated from the Heritage God first promised to Abraham, and then to the Children of Israel in Egypt.

Now it is just a Book, so maybe, we are all free to make up our own judgments as we go, depending on the ever changing religious philosophy of men.

But I am of the mind that it isn't the Word of God which can not be trusted, rather, the philosophies of religious men. I am hoping you might consider exactly where you got the information or belief that in the New Covenant, God's Laws, Statutes, and commandments became obsolete. Because Frankly, the Bible doesn't teach this in my view.

If you can provide me scriptural evidence that the Christ didn't make a Temporary Covenant with Levi on Israel's Behalf, please show me. If you can provide me with any prophesy that foretells of the Messiah making God's definition of Righteousness and sin obsolete, I would also be interested in that.

If you can't, well, you can thank me later for bring these point up.

Studyman said:

Heb. 7-10 goes into great detail explaining this. I asked many modern religious men to show me in either the Promise of the New Covenant by it's Creator, or in Hebrews chapter 7 thru chapter 10, where there is any mention of any of God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments or Commandments, apart from the Levitical Priesthood, that passed away, becoming obsolete, or otherwise relegated as void and no longer relevant in a believers life. But neither you, nor any other person can find one place.

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Why are you restricting this to only specific passages?

That's what I was pointing out about Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Here-->Covenant and New Covenant theology

And here--->Covenant and New Covenant theology

Circumcision....dietary restrictions....and keeping holy days and feasts are not exclusive to the priesthood.

mkgal1 said:

So how did Christianity/the Church even begin? What's the entire book of Acts? This statement completely dismisses all that Jesus had accomplished.

What dispensationalism does - by conflating ALL of old covenant Israel (corrupt and righteous/faithful) - basically deletes the entire New Testament as if Jesus wasn't Messiah and puts off the coming of Messiah to the future.

Corrupt Israel has been cut off the metaphorical olive tree (so that's who "fell").. ....but not ALL Israel was corrupt (the faithful are our origin).

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The Body of Christ was formed thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), with the gospel of grace given to the Apostle Paul.

The Book of Acts account for the fall of Israel, by the time Acts 28 is reached, Israel is completely blinded.

Guojing said:

The Body of Christ was formed thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), with the gospel of grace given to the Apostle Paul.

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And what Covenant are we in with God?

Please take the time to read Romans 11 in its entirety (bonus points for reading Romans 10 along with it - since they ought not be separated). Romans 11 begins with Paul explaining how *some* of the old covenant Israel being corrupt doesn't dismiss the fact that God has always kept a faithful remnant to fulfill His purpose (of which Paul was included in this faithful remnant):


Full chapter: "Romans 11 BSB" Romans 11 BSB

mkgal1 said:

And what Covenant are we in with God?

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That depends on your theology. I like to think that we are included in the Abrahamic Covenant as Paul would explain in Romans 4. That would explain why we are not under the Law of Moses.

All I can say is that Hebrews 8:8, read literally, is that the new covenant will be made with the nation Israel in the days to come, which does not mean right now. In that new covenant, the Law of Moses would be written in their hearts.

jgr said:

Jesus' reference to Israel identifies the Jewish racism within it.

No one "went thru" Israel in the following verses of Mark 7:31-37 when Jesus entered Gentile territory and healed Gentiles therein.

Do you agree that Jesus was not a racist Jew, and that he was sent to the whole world?

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Jesus was first sent to Israel, as Paul would explain in Romans 15:8.

After the nation Israel has accepted their King, then Israel is meant to be a nation that will bring salvation and blessings to the entire world, as Genesis 12:3 and Zechariah 8 explained.

Seen in that way, yes John 3:16 is correct, Jesus will ultimately bless the entire world, but its important you recognize that John 3:16 was based on the OT prophetic timetable.

Thus, based on that timetable, in his first coming, he was correct in telling the Canaanite lady in Mark 7:27

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

The Jews must first be filled before the Gentiles, because that is the timetable set in OT passages like Zechariah 8.

Incidentally, Jesus made the same point about that OT timetable, when there were Greeks who approached Phillip seeking to meet Jesus in John 12:24. No one among the 12 understood what he was saying then of course.

Guojing said:

Jesus was first sent to Israel, as Paul would explain in Romans 15:8.

After the nation Israel has accepted their King, then Israel is meant to be a nation that will bring salvation and blessings to the entire world, as Genesis 12:3 and Zechariah 8 explained.

Seen in that way, yes John 3:16 is correct, Jesus will ultimately bless the entire world, but its important you recognize that John 3:16 was based on the OT prophetic timetable.

Thus, based on that timetable, in his first coming, he was correct in telling the Canaanite lady in Mark 7:27

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

The Jews must first be filled before the Gentiles, because that is the timetable set in OT passages like Zechariah 8.

Incidentally, Jesus made the same point about that OT timetable, when there were Greeks who approached Phillip seeking to meet Jesus in John 12:24. No one among the 12 understood what he was saying then of course.

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Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


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BABerean2 said:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


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Yes, Peter was also aware of the same OT prophetic timetable, that was why he was preaching only to Israel in early Acts, and reacted to Cornelius the way he did in Acts 10:28.