Protestantism has done more harm than good.

fhansen

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Like I said, this is a dangerous subject.
There are tens of thousands of denominations. Which one is telling the "truth"?
I understand. I'm just making a general statement that truth isn't relative or changeable even as we may be ready to accept more or less of it at different stages of our walk or life.
 
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All "isms" are wrong. Picking out one is pointless. Roman Catholicism has done way more damage to the reputation of Christianity than any protestant group.
Is there any ancient Christian Body Whose Church is not an "ism" then?
 
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GraceBro

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We're actually still obligated to obey the law, the ten commandments as stated by Jesus in Matt 19 and outlined by Paul in Room 13:10. The obligation for man to be righteous does not disappear with the New Covenant, much as some seem to prefer that it does-not saying anyone specifically here. Anyway this is why Rom 2:13 tells us that we'll still be judged by the law, even though it cannot possibly justify us; only God can do that. So it's to be fulfilled but finally fulfilled the right way now, by the Spirit, under grace as God indwells us, via the love that He has wrought in our hearts.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." Galatians 3:11

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:24-25

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine ... " 1 Timothy 1:8-10

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:56

"...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Colossians 2:14

"who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3:6-8

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

"In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13

"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6

"And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death." Romans 7:10
 
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fhansen

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"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." Galatians 3:11

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:24-25

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine ... " 1 Timothy 1:8-10

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:56

"...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Colossians 2:14

"who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3:6-8

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

"In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13

"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6

"And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death." Romans 7:10
We do not rely on the law now, but as Jesus and Paul told us we must keep it nonetheless. This is basic Christianity. This is what the New Covenant provides for, with God placing His law on our minds and writing it on our hearts as per Jer 31:33, accomplishing what we cannot do on our own. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). This is what it means to be a new creation even if our walk in this newness of life under grace may be faltering at times.
 
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The Barbarian

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So if any of us meets Jesus face to face and confesses his belief in and trust of the Savior, and has no chance whatsoever of being baptized in water (as was undeniably the case with the good thief on the cross).... then we may conclude that baptism is not essential for salvation.

It is called "Baptism of desire." God isn't a lawyer. If you give yourself to Him, and never get the chance to be baptised, you are still saved.
 
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The Barbarian

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The first time that it was encouraged as far as I know was actually in an 1893 encyclical letter on the study of holy Scripture written by Pope Leo XIII. There may be earlier such examples but not that I'm aware of.

See my earlier post. There are much, much earlier examples than the 1600s, if you want to see some of them.
 
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The Barbarian

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JWs are Sola Scriptura adherents for that matter, and depending on the issue involved, they often make quite plausible arguments for their positions based on Scripture alone.

Scripture denies Sola Scriptura. Which puts the sola people in an odd logical position.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 
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ISteveB

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Essentially I'm wondering if hundreds of denominations, with dozens of versions of the Bible, has resulted in confusion and (in response) apostacy; whether into heretical denominations or fully out of any semblance of the Church whatsoever.

People keep telling me that scripture is protected but it cannot be protected when there are literally dozens of different versions of the Bible. Of course, they claim that their favourite one is the special version, but heck they can't all be right can they...

So I'm calling out Protestantism as doing more harm than good because it makes a chaos and confusion of matters that shatters the Church and drives people away.

What say you all?
I think this is one of those really wrong thinking ideas.
I will however forebear on the typical sarcasm I'd normally use here. Which I have to admit is really challenging because I think that there's serious problems with your idea.

If protestantism is such a problem, then the catholic leaders need to get off their collective derrieres and turn back to scripture, dump the icons, Mary, and saints as being special, priests, popes, celibacy of the priesthood, and all of the 95 points that Martin Luther made on his letter nailed to the door at Wittenberg.

Do that, and we can talk about "being catholic" again.

I never was a catholic. I met Jesus at a Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California in 1977. I grew up Methodist. My grandparents were Methodist. My great grandfather's family was catholic. But I didn't learn that until 1985, when I was 25.
I did consider becoming a catholic priest at one point but I liked the idea of marriage more than being a priest.

I saw serious doctrinal issues that were never reconciled.

So, I have to wonder....

Even Jesus told us a story about a father and two sons.

The younger son was asked by the father to do something but said no. Later, he rethought his response, and went to do what his father asked.

The older son was asked by the father to do something and he said he would, but never did it.

To which Jesus asked his hearers,

Which of the two sons did his father's will?

I'll stick with what I'm learning to do right now.

Let us know when the catholic church stops their centuries old unbiblical practices. Then we can talk.
 
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Jamdoc

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Again my question if anyone at any time was causing anything pagan to infiltrate the church where were all of the faithful followers protesting? Until the time of Constantine Christians were dying rather than accept pagan deities etc. So if Constantine brought any paganism into the church why were there not thousands of faithful Christians protesting?

No idea, but you have to accept that Paganism infiltrated Christianity. The word "Easter" comes from Ishtar after all. Rosary Beads also come from paganism (Jesus Himself said not to use vain repetitions in Matthew 6:7)
 
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Jamdoc

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If searching for truth means that some fall into error, doesn't necessitate that searching for truth is the wrong thing to do.

Yes, nowhere are we exhorted to conform to one man's interpretation of the word of God.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm talking about when Constantine made the church the official religion of the Roman empire.
Constantine changed Roman law to make Christianity legal rather than illegal.
 
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Jamdoc

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Constantine changed Roman law to make Christianity legal rather than illegal.
Not just that. He also took control of it and made it the official religion of the Empire, it wasn't just legal, it was obligatory.
 
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Albion

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Not just that. He also took control of it and made it the official religion of the Empire, it wasn't just legal, it was obligatory.
Actually, Constantine was not the one who made it either legal or official. He sure gets a lot of "ink" in discussions like this one, though. ;)
 
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Der Alte

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No idea, but you have to accept that Paganism infiltrated Christianity. The word "Easter" comes from Ishtar after all. Rosary Beads also come from paganism (Jesus Himself said not to use vain repetitions in Matthew 6:7)
I don't use beads. But what about them do you think is pagan?
Now prove to me, without quoting Wiki, from a credible, verifiable, historical source that the word "Easter" is derived from "Ishtar."
 
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chevyontheriver

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Not just that. He also took control of it and made it the official religion of the Empire, it wasn't just legal, it was obligatory.
While I am quite willing to believe you, I think you should provide some evidence to back up your claim. Otherwise I might think you made it up.
 
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Der Alte

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Not just that. He also took control of it and made it the official religion of the Empire, it wasn't just legal, it was obligatory.
Actually, Constantine was not the one who made it either legal or official. He sure gets a lot of "ink" in discussions like this one, though. ;)
Evidence? Substantiation? Documentation?
 
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GraceBro

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We do not rely on the law now, but as Jesus and Paul told us we must keep it nonetheless. This is basic Christianity. This is what the New Covenant provides for, with God placing His law on our minds and writing it on our hearts as per Jer 31:33, accomplishing what we cannot do on our own. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). This is what it means to be a new creation even if our walk in this newness of life under grace may be faltering at times.
Has your righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20)? Are you as perfect as God the Father in all you do (Matthew 5:48)? What law are you obeying that imparts life and makes you righteous (Galatians 3:21)? Be honest. You're not being obedient to God's law. At least not to the extent He demands. Just the fact that you are on the internet on the Sabbath is a violation of the law (Exodus 35:3).
 
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fhansen

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Has your righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20)? Are you as perfect as God the Father in all you do (Matthew 5:48)? What law are you obeying that imparts life and makes you righteous (Galatians 3:21)? Be honest. You're not being obedient to God's law. At least not to the extent He demands. Just the fact that you are on the internet on the Sabbath is a violation of the law (Exodus 35:3).
God judges by the heart, which He, alone, knows with certainty. I seek to obey, to the best I can, the Greatest Commandments-and to remain near to the One who can help me fulfill them. And I believe, that had I not heard the gospel and learned of God's will I would not obey them to the degree I do now, even as that obedience is still a struggle, sometimes a great one at times. And the Church rightly teaches, IMO, quoting a 16th century believer in this case, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

We're to do the best we can with whatever we're given; the Parable of the Talents tells us that this can be different for each but at the end of the day God knows how much is enough and how much not enough. Faith his not a get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as we believe. Faith is not the equivalent of righteousness in God's eyes nor is it a license to be free from the obligation for man to be righteous. So, you have your marching orders. Seek the obedience, the holiness, the perfection, the love that comes by seeking, and coming to know, God. Then, yes, we've already exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees and teachers of the law.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't use beads. But what about them do you think is pagan?
Now prove to me, without quoting Wiki, from a credible, verifiable, historical source that the word "Easter" is derived from "Ishtar."

Beads are used for counting repetitions. Vain repetitions.
 
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