LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

mmksparbud said:

They can not love whom they do not know. People who have been married for years, can find out that they never really knew the real person. People have been friends for years, and end up discovering the same thing. If you know only false information about someone, then you do not really know them and can not really love them, they are not who you think they are.

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Leaf473 said:

I think that the various social structures in place as you and others have described it would make anonymous tithing impossible in practice.


that's right, live the lifestyle that the Samaritan is living, and you will live!

the Samaritan does not follow the commandments of God given through Moses, otherwise he would be called a Jewish proselytite, not a Samaritan, I think.
I also think he does not have access to the temple or its rituals.

does that sound right to you?

thus, the Samaritan achieves life not through adherence to a long list of rules,
but by choosing to live a lifestyle based on faith in who God is, what he has done and will do.


well, here are some things I read in the Bible
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And several translations of a fascinating verse here:
Revelation 21:6 And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life.

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He is the way said:

You said: "They can not love whom they do not know." You are correct:

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 5)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

That is why it is SO important to keep the commandments. Life eternal depends on it:

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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mmksparbud said:

Wow!! How did I know that is what you were going to say? I must be psychic!! That is the point. LDS do not know who Jesus really is----the Creator of all things---from nothing-- who shed His life for our sins though One with God from everlasting. He was the one there at creation, walked with Adam and Eve, so many things you do not know---and if you do not know Him, He will not know you. just like the rich young ruler who did not truly love the Lord, but loved his riches---he walked away sorrowfully though he kept the commandments. and like those who did all sorts of "good, wonderful works"

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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mmksparbud said:

But the scriptures themselves were still very carefully guarded and if you read up on the Waldenses and others, God has always maintained a remnant who guarded His word. They very carefully copied it. God did not let His word be destroyed or corrupted.

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He is the way said:

You said: "I think that the various social structures in place as you and others have described it would make anonymous tithing impossible in practice."

I suspect we will have to agree to disagree about this. There ars just too many ways to give anonymously to God even though Abraham did so openly to show the need to tithe.

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You said: "the Samaritan does not follow the commandments of God given through Moses, otherwise he would be called a Jewish proselytite, not a Samaritan, I think.
I also think he does not have access to the temple or its rituals."

In the temple people perform the necessary ordinances for salvation for people who were not able to perform then during their lives. Eventually every person that ever lived will have the opportunity to accept or reject those necessary ordinances. God is fair and equatable to everyone. He provided a way for everyone to receive these necessary ordinances:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

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Leaf473 said:

well, I believe we were talking specifically about tithing
(as opposed to generic giving to God)
in the context of obtaining a temple recommend interview.

does the handbook state that the tithe must be given to the bishop?
is the handbook approved by the prophet?

I believe the handbook also says that a slip *should* be filled out which would include the tither's name.
when the handbook uses the word
*should*,
does that mean it is a requirement or a suggestion?

if a person may mail their tithe anonymously in the form of cash to the bishop,
again, that practice appears to be so rare that
in practice
(not just in theory but as it would actually play out)
anonymous tithing would be impossible.
That's because the bishop would easily be able to figure out who had been giving it.

but if you can think of a way to do it, please share it!


I believe the setting of the story is that a lawyer asks Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life.
Jesus answers in so many words, live like the Good Samaritan.

if someone wishes to add a long list of very specific rules to that,
I become suspicious.

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dzheremi said:

Just as a general comment on the concept of an apostasy (i.e., not as a direct response to any one post), I think it can fairly be said that there are many scriptures which can be brought up to either back or refute this idea, thus what is made of them probably says more about the people doing the reading than about any particular historical trend in any part of the world or any particular church. Because when I read mmksparbud's post, my initial reaction was "hidden away, 'chained' in monasteries? What?", but then when I got the point about the Waldenses, it clicked: "Ohhhh! They're talking about the medieval Roman Catholic Church." And since I have nothing to say about that one way or another, I guess my answer is going to have to be a rather tepid okay then. (I mean, someone could still challenge that characterization, but that someone should probably be an actual Roman Catholic, not me. )

But even then, I recognize certain currents within the tradition of the Church of Egypt of which I am a part that, if I were to look at things as a Mormon or other restorationist does, could be used to fuel that narrative (that's just not something that we who are actually in the Egyptian Church do). For instance, Abba Anthony (c. 251-356), the founder of Christian monasticism, once said "A time is coming when men will go mad, and upon seeing one who is not mad, they will seize him, saying 'He is not like us!'" This echoes 2 Timothy 4:34, and just like it, I don't think a single generation has passed since its recording that good men and women didn't think it applied to the Church in their own time. Just looking at the various heresies that were around in the beginning and the first few centuries of the Christian Church (e.g., adoptionism, Sabellianism/Patripassionism, the various Judaizing heresies, etc.), it would be hard not to see it as applicable in some sense.

However, I would put forth for the thread's consideration that there is a rather large difference between acknowledging that these somewhat less-than-flattering verses and sayings do apply to the Church insofar as they do (which is nothing more than the quite reasonable position that not everything is perfect everywhere, and/or not everyone down to a man/woman lives and believes as they should), and claiming that because these apply, therefore _____ (the "Great Apostasy" is a real thing, and not something made up by JS and similarly-minded people).

The clever among us could answer that we should hope that such verses would apply to something somewhere in the real world, since otherwise it could call into question why they're even in the holy scriptures in the first place if they don't reflect the truth (which just opens the door to say that about all scripture), but I don't personally see any contradiction in saying that they are a warning of the inevitability of such things occurring -- as they were already happening during the time of the apostles themselves (recall, e.g., St. Peter's temporary acceptance of Judaizing, for which St. Paul "withstood him to his face", as recorded in Galatians 2) -- and not a challenge to pick out individual instances in history and then read those back into the scriptures, since of course no two people are necessarily going to agree with any given example of such an 'apostasy' supposedly occurring.

Looked at from this perspective, we can agree that the scriptures and the fathers do foresee an apostasy of sorts, and yet not agree with the Mormons or any other restorationists when they point to whatever events they think are proof of it. And I definitely agree with mmksparbud that it is of a much more limited scope than Mormons claim, since that is what is actually testified to in the scriptures themselves (e.g., John 6, where many of His disciples left Him, but of course not all did).

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He is the way said:

You said: "I believe the setting of the story is that a lawyer asks Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life.
Jesus answers in so many words, live like the Good Samaritan."
Jesus said first, in so many words, to keep the commandments of LOVE.

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The lawyer, wanting to justify himself, asked who his neighbor was. Keeping both of the commandments of LOVE is needed to have eternal life. God is LOVE.

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Leaf473 said:

yes, I agree!
I was giving the very short version.


absolutely!

so, a paradox we may wish to ponder
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

the greatest commandment is to love God, the second is to love other people.

the greatest commandment is part of the law, how then is the greatest fulfilled by the second, as Paul writes?

that paradox reminds me of a Peanuts comic I read when I was young
(and here I make my first attempt at posting an image on this forum)

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Leaf473 said:

as a general follow-up question to your post,

was the apostasy intense enough in the first few centuries after Jesus that substantial changes were made to:

the documents that became the Old testament

the documents that became the New testament

the documents that Joseph called the book of abraham, if it known as such at the time

I used three categories because different groups may have taken care of different sets of documents.

myself, I don't know of good historical evidence that indicates substantial changes to the first two categories.

as I understand it, there are no copies of the book of Abraham from that time, with the possible exception of the one that Joseph bought.
I think a reasonable conclusion is that it was unknown until Joseph claimed Revelation about it.

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Hrairoo said:

One thing I've discovered in my research, a contradiction that never occurred to me until I started looking at things differently after left the church, is that not even Mormons believe there was a full apostasy.

To this day, Mormons believe that three of the Nephites that Christ taught when he came to the Americas after his resurrection are still alive and wandering the earth.

3 Nephi 28

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

Oh and what's that in there? That reference to John? It's an interpretation of this verse in John 21:

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

So, yeah. Before Joseph Smith restored the true gospel of Christ on earth, before he restored the priesthood in the 1800's, there was still one living apostle wandering the earth and three Nephite disciples, probably with authority, having been taught by Christ and given this gift.

I never connected the dots before... I knew about the three Nephites but that story wasn't so much emphasized or put into connection with the apostasy. The way I always thought of them was just as some neat folklore, fruit for spiritual stories people had of meeting these kindly, opportune strangers who granted them some mercy or kindness and then were gone. Like, they were transformed to not taste death, so, it felt like they were simply angels or something, you know?

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While commentators, ancient and modern, have been divided regarding the meaning of Jesus’s statement to Peter about John’s fate at the end of the Gospel (see John 21:20–23), Joseph Smith received a revelation confirming that John’s mission will continue as a translated being until the Savior’s return (see Doctrine and Covenants 7:1–6).

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Are John the Beloved and the Three Nephites actually still on the earth? If so, what are they doing?


Yes, the Savior granted to John the Beloved and the Three Nephites their desire to tarry on the earth. What they’re doing is bringing souls unto the Lord until He comes again (see D&C 7:2; 3 Nephi 28:9).

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Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members. Other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed, and priesthood authority—including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church—was taken from the earth. Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This period is called the Great Apostasy.

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D&C 7:2
This passage does not refer to the fact that a person would never die, for all must die (see 1 Corinthians 15:22). Even Christ died, though he had power over death (see John 10:17–18). To one who has power over death, death is held in abeyance according to the will of God (see Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27; 3 Nephi 28:7–8). Such persons are called translated beings (see 3 Nephi 28:1–40; McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 804–8).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said that “translated bodies cannot enter into rest until they have undergone a change equivalent to death. Translated bodies are designed for future missions.” (History of the Church, 4:425; for further discussion of translated beings see Smith, Teachings, pp. 170–71; Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, pp. 74–78.)

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“The keys of the ministry which John says (Sec. 7:7) were given to Peter, James and himself, constituted the authority of Presidency of the Church in their dispensation. (See D.H.C., Vol. 3:387; Matt. 17:1–9; D. & C. 81:1–2.) These keys were given at the transfiguration to these three Apostles, and they in turn gave them to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in this dispensation. (D. & C. 27:12–13; 128:20.)” (Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:49.)

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We don’t know anything more specific about the activities of these men. We know only that they have been transfigured so that they will not taste of death and that, whatever they are doing, it is for the purpose of bringing people to the Savior.

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mmksparbud said:

The bible itself says what that means.

Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus never said John would not die. Just that it was none of his business if he should!

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If they do not die----they are translated. Nowhere does it say he was translated. His tomb, however, is claimed to be in several different places. There would be no one claiming any tomb, had he not died.

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He is the way said:

John the beloved has not died, but like Elijah he was changed. He does NOT have a resurrected body yet and neither do we, but we all will.

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mmksparbud said:

There is abopslutely no proof of that.

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He is the way said:

Jesus said he would tarry till He comes again. What more proof do you need?

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mmksparbud said:

That is not what Jesus said---Repeat

Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus never said John would not die. Just that it was none of his business if he should! It says it right there and you refuse tol szee it. Because that makes about the 50th instance that your prophet has been wrong and you can't face it! He couldn't read very wll either!

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