Covenant and New Covenant theology

Guojing said:

His first coming was for the nation Israel, as I have already used Matthew 15:24 with you.

Is there a reason you keep avoiding quoting Acts 3:19-21, or 1 Peter 1:5-9, we have been discussing about, regarding his 2nd coming for the nation Israel?

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His first coming was for the whole world. John 3:16

I've just finished describing how Acts 3:24 explains what precedes it, which includes Acts 3:19-21. 1 Peter 1:5-9 describes the final result of salvation, which is a continuum beginning with our salvation from sin, and ending with the salvation of our souls from eternal punishment.

What is obvious is that there is no delayed or futurized forgiveness anywhere to be seen. If there is any confusion, then using the principle of Scripture interpreting Scripture, we use the multiple references to forgiveness from Jesus, Paul, James, and John which I cited previously, to interpret Acts 3.

Forgiveness is always immediate for all who confess their sin.

Guojing said:

His first coming was for the nation Israel, as I have already used Matthew 15:24 with you.

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Then why did He grant her request?

Answer: Because He wasn't a Jewish racist, and was sent to the whole world. (John 3:16)

jgr said:

Then why did He grant her request?

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I already stated to you, she accepted that she was a dog, which was a term Jews used to describe gentiles, and because of that status as one, she could eat the crumbs of the bread that fell from the Jewish children's bread.

Jesus granted her the healing she wanted because of that reply, she got it thru the nation Israel (Mark 7:27-29)

jgr said:

His first coming was for the whole world. John 3:16

I've just finished describing how Acts 3:24 explains what precedes it, which includes Acts 3:19-21. 1 Peter 1:5-9 describes the final result of salvation, which is a continuum beginning with our salvation from sin, and ending with the salvation of our souls from eternal punishment.

What is obvious is that there is no delayed or futurized forgiveness anywhere to be seen. If there is any confusion, then using the principle of Scripture interpreting Scripture, we use the multiple references to forgiveness from Jesus, Paul, James, and John which I cited previously, to interpret Acts 3.

Forgiveness is always immediate for all who confess their sin.

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I see, you are not willing to take Peter's literal words in those passages then, alright.

Guojing said:

Again, Israel there refers to the nation. Its a corporate forgiveness and not individual. So long as a Jew is not cut off from the nation before that happens, he will be forgiven.

But I do understand you won't be able to accept the distinction.

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Some of us do not have to ignore the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13, in order to make modern Dispensational Theology work.

You have to ignore the fulfillment of the New Covenant at Calvary.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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Studyman said:

Now can you tell me why the Children of Israel were still alive after they created a golden calf which is transgressing the first of the 10 Commandments God gave them when they came out of Egypt?

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It seems you want me to say the people of Israel survived because Moses interceded for the people.

Are you then going to claim the Sinai Covenant was really made with the Levites, who were related to Moses?

If that is your intention, one of your many problems is the fact that Aaron is the one who fashioned the golden calf, and the Levites descended from Aaron.


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BABerean2 said:

Some of us do not have to ignore the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13, in order to make modern Dispensational Theology work.

You have to ignore the fulfillment of the New Covenant at Calvary.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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The new covenant has not been made yet, Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It is still coming in the future.

Guojing said:

Do you believe Paul tells us, who are in the Body of Christ, that our sins are forgiven the moment we believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and that we are permanently forgiven throughout our life on Earth?

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I believe we should study all that is written in the Holy Scriptures. And that we can't possible understand 1 Cor. 15 1-4 unless we consider other scriptures as well.

1 Cor. 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ( Lord, Lord, we are the body of Christ)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

We should be careful that our belief is founded on the Word's of God, and not the philosophies of religious men.

Studyman said:

I believe we should study all that is written in the Holy Scriptures. And that we can't possible understand 1 Cor. 15 1-4 unless we consider other scriptures as well.

1 Cor. 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ( Lord, Lord, we are the body of Christ)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

We should be careful that our belief is founded on the Word's of God, and not the philosophies of religious men.

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To clarify what you are thinking, do you view salvation as requiring faith AND works?

Guojing said:

The new covenant has not been made yet, Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It is still coming in the future.

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Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted directly from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM," (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused, or you are confused.


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BABerean2 said:

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted directly from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM," (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused, or you are confused.


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As I have said, we in the Body of Christ are neither the House of Israel nor the House of Judah.

The nation Israel is currently fallen (Romans 11:11), so that new covenant has not begun for them yet.

But I know you disagree, so we can move on for this point.

BABerean2 said:

It seems you want me to say the people of Israel survived because Moses interceded for the people.

Are you then going to claim the Sinai Covenant was really made with the Levites, who were related to Moses?

If that is your intention, one of your many problems is the fact that Aaron is the one who fashioned the golden calf, and the Levites descended from Aaron.

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I only want you to answer my question, instead of deflecting from it. I don't want you to "say" anything except what you believe. And then we can examine the scriptures to see if this belief is from God, or from the philosophies of religious men.

Just as you may ask me a question, I will answer what I believe, and we can examine the Scriptures to see if my belief in wrought of God or religious man.

In this way we can help each other to avoid the greatest danger God's people are told to "take Heed" of. And that is religious men who come in Christ's Name, who preach Jesus is truly the Christ, but who deceive "Many".

This Love for others is not taken very well my "many". It seem they are already convinced that they are all set, and an honest discussion about scriptures just upsets them. In Jesus' time it really upset them as they silenced, even Killed any man that Loved them in this way.

It is my hope we can have such a discussion without the hatred and resentment in our hearts.

Yes, Moses interceded for them and sought atonement for their sins. Moses didn't die for them as God did not require this for the atonement of their sins. Instead, God required the Separation of the Tribe of Levi from both Israel, and Israels inheritance, and made an exclusive Priesthood Covenant with him to provide for the atonement of the Sins of Israel, and to provide for the administration of God's Laws.

God didn't make this Covenant on Israel's behalf in the day HE brought them out of Egypt.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

God also didn't make this Covenant with Levi to provide for the atonement of Abraham or Noah,s sin. They were justified "apart" from this Law.

Why did God make this Covenant with Levi? According to you, it seems, it was Aaron's fault that the golden calf was made. What are you saying? That the Priesthood after the order of Aaron was a mistake? That God gave the Covenant of the Priesthood to an idol worshiper? Or are you saying God didn't give Levi a Priesthood Covenant because he made the golden calf?

I am not sure what your point is there. I am looking forward to you setting me straight on your meaning of your statement there.

Can you find even one Scripture where God holds Aaron responsible for the Golden Calf? And if God doesn't judge him in this matter, should we?

I'm not sure the reason why you are so set on your belief that God didn't make a separate Covenant with Levi on Mt. Sinai.

But for me, I can show you exactly why I believe God did make a Priesthood Covenant with Levi. And I hope you will let me know why you think I'm wrong, according to Scriptures.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

When is it recorded in the scriptures that Levi feared the God of Abraham?

Ex. 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

If you can find evidence that this understanding is wrong according to Scriptures, please provide it. I am only interested in Biblical Truth.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his (God's) mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

It doesn't seem like God has Judged Levi for the whole Golden calf thing.

So what happened to these Levite Priests, the sons of Aaron? He was a messenger of the Christ was he not?

This same Christ tells us.

Mal. 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Didn't Jesus say the very same things about the religious leaders of His Time?

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So what did this same Christ do about this?

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Levite Priests who corrupted God's Covenant with them) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So you might say this isn't the "first Covenant" God made on Israel's behalf. I asked myself the same question. But Hebrews says it was.

Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

This is specifically speaking to the Priesthood service, and the tabernacle in which only a Levite was allowed to enter. In fact, from Hebrews 7-10 there not one mention of any other Law, Commandments, or Covenant, than the Levitical Priesthood. If you can find one mention of the 10 commandments, or God's other Laws and Statutes in the 4 chapters discussing the New Covenant, please show me.

So what were the duties of the Levitical Priesthood? Were they not to administer God's Laws to the people? Were they not to provide sacrificial "Works" for the forgiveness of sins until the SEED should come?

And how did the Christ define HIS Own New Covenant?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

So here it is, here is the Christ Himself defining HIS Own New Covenant.


After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Is this not a Priesthood duty?

How was God's Law administered "before" after those days? Was it not by the Levitical Priesthood? In fact, could a Non-Levite even touch the Book of the Law before Jesus came?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Is this not a Priesthood duty?

And how were sins forgiven "before" after those days? Wasn't a man who sinned supposed to take an animal specifically to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works" for the forgiveness of sins?

And what of God's Laws? Did they become obsolete like the "works" for atonement did?

The Scriptures say no, they are preserved on the hearts of God's People.

Now I know this is not taught in the religions of the land we were born into. But it's not like Jesus didn't warn us over and over about the deceptions of the philosophies of religious men.

I think these are good discussions for men to have in this prophesied evil time when men are deceiving and being deceived. We can trust the Word of God can't we?

Studyman said:

I'm not sure the reason why you are so set on your belief that God didn't make a separate Covenant with Levi on Mt. Sinai.

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My "belief" is not the issue.

Anyone here can read Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3, which reveal that God made the Sinai Covenant with "all" of Israel.

I'm not sure the reason you want to believe otherwise.

The tribe of Levi was selected to perform the animal sacrifices, as a part of the Sinai Covenant.

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Guojing said:

To clarify what you are thinking, do you view salvation as requiring faith AND works?

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Again, I believe we should let the Holy Scriptures guide us in the way to Salvation. Not one verse here or there to promote some religious philosophy of men, but as Jesus Himself Said; "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word of God".

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

What Law does a man follow when he was a Child of Disobedience before repentance? The Law of the same "Spirit of Life" that was in Jesus? Or the Law of sin, which leads to death?

Who is the Spirit of Life that was in Christ Jesus? What was HIS Law? Am I to "Walk" after something, and not walk after something?

I don't think you have thought your question through.

Guojing said:

I see, you are not willing to take Peter's literal words in those passages then, alright.

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I see you are not willing to take Jesus', Paul's, James', and John's literal words, or to acknowledge that Peter confirms them.

Guojing said:

I already stated to you, she accepted that she was a dog, which was a term Jews used to describe gentiles, and because of that status as one, she could eat the crumbs of the bread that fell from the Jewish children's bread.

Jesus granted her the healing she wanted because of that reply, she got it thru the nation Israel (Mark 7:27-29)

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Jesus' reference to Israel identifies the Jewish racism within it.

No one "went thru" Israel in the following verses of Mark 7:31-37 when Jesus entered Gentile territory and healed Gentiles therein.

Do you agree that Jesus was not a racist Jew, and that he was sent to the whole world?

BABerean2 said:

My "belief" is not the issue.

Anyone here can read Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3, which reveal that God made the Sinai Covenant with "all" of Israel.

I'm not sure the reason you want to believe otherwise.

The tribe of Levi was selected to perform the animal sacrifices, as a part of the Sinai Covenant.

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God had already given "ALL ISRAEL" His Covenant before Ex. 34, and the people had already broken it before Ex. 34. And Moses had already spent 40 days and 40 nights on the mount before EX 34.

Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And the people agreed to keep it.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

As Samuel, inspired by the Spirit of the Living Christ told us.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

And Jeremiah, inspired by the Same Living Christ;

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

And the Covenant with Levi was Separate from the Covenant with "All Israel", at least according to the God of the Bible.

Duet. 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

And the Christ Himself said HE Gave Levi a Covenant.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32:26)

And the Christ's OWN Definition of HIS Own New Covenant confirms this Biblical Truth, as I posted.

And the Christ most certainly knew when HE gave Levi the Priesthood, that it would be a Temporary Covenant. Surely HE knew HE would become the High Priest after those days, even before HE gave Levi the Priesthood.

And when the Christ gave Israel the Commandment "Thou shall Love thy neighbor as thyself", did this Law become obsolete like the sacrifice of animals did? Of course not. Because they were part of Separate Covenants, one changed, one didn't.

And I asked you for any reference in Hebrews 7-10 where any other Law is mentioned except the Levitical Priesthood, and you can not find one reference because there is no reference to any other Law.

I asked for any Scriptures which opposes the Christ's own Words that HE made a Covenant with Levi, and you can find none, because there is none.

So here I am having to choose between your religious philosophy, which teaches there was no Covenant with Levi Separate from Israel, and the volumes of the Christ's Own Words which teach there was.

I find these circumstances so fascinating, and a great Spiritual practice. These same circumstances were given to so many examples in the Bible. Eve, Caleb, The Prophet in 1 Kings 13, all the way to Acts 5.

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

God has shown me so much on these forums, and sometimes I get frustrated. But then I realize that all of God's People are placed in these circumstances, not to turn them away from HIS Holy Words, but to strengthen their resolve for the times that are coming.

I am both humbled and thankful that God has placed me, a maggot turd, in this same circumstance as so many others in His Word.

And I thank you for being the vessel He used.

May the Christ of the Bible lead us all to HIS Eternal truth.

Studyman said:

I appreciate what you are saying. But to believe that the Jews, who killed Jesus and Stephen, who Jesus called children of the devil, who were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, who had led God's people astray for centuries, whose Law condemned the only perfect human ever to walk the earth, to death, were now all the sudden promoting obedience to God is a big stretch for me.

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How else can a person interpret what Paul had written about the Judaizers? And that's the point - they were NOT promoting obedience to God (because God isn't interested in outward obedience to external rituals while their hearts are far from God).

When Paul wrote to the church in Galatia....he asked who had bewitched them into turning back to relying on circumcision, dietary restrictions, and holy days and feasts. This wasn't an encouragement to obey God from the Judaizers. It was a denial of Jesus' resurrection and fulfilled prophecies.

jgr said:

Then why did He grant her request?

Answer: Because He wasn't a Jewish racist, and was sent to the whole world. (John 3:16)

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Your stamina with this whole "going through" issue is pretty impressive JGR. You get a virtual standing ovation from me.

BABerean2 said:

My "belief" is not the issue.

Anyone here can read Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3, which reveal that God made the Sinai Covenant with "all" of Israel.

I'm not sure the reason you want to believe otherwise.

The tribe of Levi was selected to perform the animal sacrifices, as a part of the Sinai Covenant.

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I was wondering the same thing - why this division is being made between all of Israel and just the Levites. There was a distinction made with how the physical land was divided....so maybe that's being used to support this belief (not sure)....but mainly I think the motive is to keep the ten commandments (and perhaps more laws that Moses had interpreted) out of what was obsolete in order to assert that we are obligated to continue to keep the laws of Moses.

The problem is....the entire purpose of a covenant mediator was for this human to be the interpreter of God's laws to humanity. Adam & Eve were covenant mediators.....so was Noah....Abraham.....and King David. They were all priestly in their roles. Now Christ Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant....which that office includes King and High Priest.....(the only) perfect interpreter of God’s law. IOW.....Jesus fulfilled what imperfect humanity could not. That's progressive covenantalism in a nutshell.