Protestantism has done more harm than good.

Albion · Sep 19, 2020

Aspzan said:
What if they did eventually misunderstand, misread and fall into heresy, resulting in Protestantism?

I don't think that "resulting in Protestantism" is part of that issue. The Church simply feels and has felt that she has a responsibility to guard the faith, and that includes the instruction of the laity.

Most errors, it can be argued, are not even related to some other denomination's belief system, but are just the strange ideas that individuals come up with as they read something or other in Scripture.

The Church does have a point there, but, as for the argument over the Church having put herself in the way of ordinary people having access to the Scriptures, she certainly did. It's not a false charge.

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said: ↑
There is less variation between any two denominations than there is a variation inside any one church.

The Barbarian said:
This may only be a slight exaggeration. If there were not Protestant Churches, there would be the same people with the same outlook among Catholics (and there probably are such people now.)

I understated the case. My first church experiences after high school were the Catholic church. There were no pews, and the attendees were a mixture of Catholics and visitors and friends. In discussion there were non-believers and others not happy with their home church.

So precisely as I said, the church building is occupied by rigid believers and religious skeptics. So the variation of beliefs inside the church building was multiple times greater than the variation between any two Christian church denominations of any kind, Protestant, Catholic, or even Christian cults.

doctorwho29 · Sep 19, 2020

Bipolargirl said:
Saul trying to talk to Samuel was a huge sin because a witch/necromancer was involved.
Christ literally says baptism is required.
John 3:5 ESV
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
But we still should pray for mercy for the souls of the unbelievers and unbaptized even after their death because God is merciful and we hope all souls are redeemed.
The early Christian church has records of repeatedly stating that holy communion is literally the body and blood of Christ.
The sacraments are held in high esteem because it is a way to revolve your entire life around Christ and the church.
Even most Protestant denominations believe that baptism and holy communion are sacred.
God bless

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. I've heard multiple explanations for "water and the spirit" and not all say baptism is required.

The Bible says all men are to face death once and then face judgement. There is no salvation beyond death.

That doesn't mean the Early Church was always right. Even in the Bible, the Disciples argued over all sorts of things and tried to require circumcision for Christians.

Ok a decent answer on the sacraments

Albion · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said:
SkyWriting said: ↑
There is less variation between any two denominations than there is a variation inside any one church.

Maybe not any two denominations, but 'yes' in general.

I understated the case. My first church experiences after high school were the Catholic church. There were no pews, and the attendees were a mixture of Catholics and visitors and friends. In discussion there were non-believers and others not happy with their home church.

This seems like a very unusual, atypical, Catholic congregation, however. Certainly not a good example upon which to build your case.

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

Inkfingers said:
So I'm calling out Protestantism as doing more harm than good because it makes a chaos and confusion of matters that shatters the Church and drives people away.

Any church building is a chaos of people and beliefs. If you think that any church has uniform beliefs, then you've not been attending Sunday classes long enough to discover the diversity of those in your pew.

Der Alte · Sep 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I'm talking about when Constantine made the church the official religion of the Roman empire.

Again my question if anyone at any time was causing anything pagan to infiltrate the church where were all of the faithful followers protesting? Until the time of Constantine Christians were dying rather than accept pagan deities etc. So if Constantine brought any paganism into the church why were there not thousands of faithful Christians protesting?

Albion · Sep 19, 2020

doctorwho29 said:
The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. I've heard multiple explanations for "water and the spirit" and not all say baptism is required.

So if any of us meets Jesus face to face and confesses his belief in and trust of the Savior, and has no chance whatsoever of being baptized in water (as was undeniably the case with the good thief on the cross).... then we may conclude that baptism is not essential for salvation.

But that is all that this even teaches us about it. For everyone else, the sacrament of Baptism was created, demonstrated by Christ himself, and commanded of his Apostles by him personally. Remember the commission given to them--go into the whole world and teach all nations, baptizing them....

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

Albion said:
Maybe not any two denominations, but 'yes' in general.

This seems like a very unusual, atypical, Catholic congregation, however. Certainly not a good example upon which to build your case.

I'm not a traveling priest, but if you find one, ask them.

Saint Steven · Sep 19, 2020

GraceBro said:
I believe this is about the level of understanding and maturity each individual experiences as they grow in Christ. In the early church, you had believers who were coming out of a background steeped in the Mosaic Law with its rigid conformity and rules. Therefore, as they come into the freedom Jesus Christ offers, those things disappear based on the individual's understanding of what the Lord is revealing to them. So, I believe that it is not about "absolute or individualized" truth, but about the individuals understanding of truth and how quickly they begin to trust in it. In short, it is the difference between trusting in your flesh to respond to rules designed to modify your behavior and depending on God to live His life in and through you as you respond to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Yes, but doesn't that mean that you agree that the "truth" changed from the requirement of the law to the freedom we now have in Christ? What became of the "truth" of the law? No longer an APPLICABLE truth. Thus "truth" changed for all practical purposes.

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

Der Alte said:
Again my question if anyone at any time was causing anything pagan to infiltrate the church where were all of the faithful followers protesting? Until the time of Constantine Christians were dying rather than accept pagan deities etc. So if Constantine brought any paganism into the church why were there not thousands of faithful Christians protesting?

Where is protesting found in scripture? Faithful Christians follow the Bible.

Matthew 10:14
And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.

Acts 13:51
But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium.

Luke 9:5
And wherever they do not receive you, when you leave that town shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”

Mark 6:11
And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.”

Albion · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said:
I'm not a traveling priest, but if you find one, ask them.

There's nothing to ask. The congregation you described is unusual and may not, therefore, serve as a good example, that's all.

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

Albion said:
There's nothing to ask. The congregation you described is unusual and may not, therefore, serve as a good example, that's all.

I'm not a traveling priest, but if you find one, ask them if it is unusual.

Albion · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said:
I'm not a traveling priest, but if you find one, ask them if it is unusual.

It's unusual.

Der Alte · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Where is protesting found in scripture? Faithful Christians follow the Bible.

Seems like you did not understand my post. If anything pagan was being brought into the church at any time, as someone has suggested, where were the faithful Christians protesting?
Some folks accuse Constantine of paganizing the church. If that is true why is there no record of 100s-1000s of faithful Christian protesting?

GraceBro · Sep 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Yes, but doesn't that mean that you agree that the "truth" changed from the requirement of the law to the freedom we now have in Christ? What became of the "truth" of the law? No longer an APPLICABLE truth. Thus "truth" changed for all practical purposes.

I see what you mean, but I wouldn't say that truth changed. The requirements of the law are still the same. It is just that we are not obligated to obey the law. The purpose of the Old Covenant was to deal with the flesh. The New Covenant deals with the spirit. I don't want to strain out a gnat. Thus I will leave it there. Have a good weekend.

fhansen · Sep 19, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I agree. And...
What I am about to write is a dangerous subject. But, it seems that truth may be more individualized than we want to admit. We tend to think that there is only one truth, that everything else is a lie. But what if truth is somewhat individualized? (within reason)

We often see Bible versus Bible arguments on the forum. But I say, if the Bible tells us two different things about a subject, then as much as we dislike it, both are true. And it does NO GOOD to have a committee vote on which is true and which is false. And then force the decision on the congregation.

We see a lot of latitude in Romans chapter fourteen. What is the truth? It seems to be individualized. Imagine that.

What is the truth about a day? Is it absolute, or individualized?

Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

Truth is truth, regardless of any human being's position on it. Adam failed to accept and heed truth in Eden. Our faith is all about truth, truth that we may or may not like but truth that we do not naturally have or recognize and that we need anyway. Our faith is all about coming to accept the truth about God, and about man, and about our need for Him. Adam, presumably, has learned that truth by now. And yes, it cannot be forced on us regardless of how true it is and how much we need to know it. God is patient and gentle in His dealings with us, but we still need to seek.

SkyWriting · Sep 19, 2020

Der Alte said:
Seems like you did not understand my post. If anything pagan was being brought into the church at any time, as someone has suggested, where were the faithful Christians protesting?

Millions of Churches decorate and celebrate Christmas. Where is the protest? Millions of Christians celebrate Halloween with no protest. Easter takes its name from a pagan goddess from Anglo-Saxon England who was described in a book by the eighth-century English monk Bede. "Eostre was a goddess of spring or renewal and that's why her feast is attached to the vernal equinox."

And I repeat: why would Christians "Protest"? There is no scriptural support for protesting.

fhansen · Sep 19, 2020

GraceBro said:
I see what you mean, but I wouldn't say that truth changed. The requirements of the law are still the same. It is just that we are not obligated to obey the law. The purpose of the Old Covenant was to deal with the flesh. The New Covenant deals with the spirit. I don't want to strain out a gnat. Thus I will leave it there. Have a good weekend.

We're actually still obligated to obey the law, the ten commandments as stated by Jesus in Matt 19 and outlined by Paul in Rom 13:8-10. The obligation for man to be righteous does not disappear with the New Covenant, much as some seem to prefer that it does-not saying anyone specifically here. Anyway this is why Rom 2:13 tells us that we'll still be judged by the law, even though it cannot possibly justify us; only God can do that. So it's to be fulfilled but finally fulfilled the right way now, by the Spirit, under grace as God indwells us, via the love that He has wrought in our hearts.

Der Alte · Sep 19, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Millions of Churches decorate and celebrate Christmas. Where is the protest? Millions of Christians celebrate Halloween with no protest.

Does not respond to my post. Do you know what the subject is?
If you want to argue about Christmas and Halloween start another thread.
For the first 300 years Christians were persecuted. Rome wanted all the conquered countries to bow down to emperor. Many were killed because they would not do it. Read e.g. the story of the martyrdom of Polycarp a student of John.
CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp

Saint Steven · Sep 19, 2020

fhansen said:
Truth is truth, regardless of any human being's position on it. Adam failed to accept and heed truth in Eden. Our faith is all about truth, truth that we may or may not like but that we do not have and that we need anyway. Our faith is all about coming to accept the truth about God, and about man, and about our need for Him. Adam, presumably, has learned that truth by now. And yes, it cannot be forced on us regardless of how true it is and how much we need to know it. God is patient and gentle in His dealings with us, but we still need to seek.

Like I said, this is a dangerous subject.
There are tens of thousands of denominations. Which one is telling the "truth"?

Protestantism has done more harm than good.

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