Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Once again, as is your MO, you are totally ignoring all the arguments I presented and the detail of the text I submitted. It seems like your motto is: "do not let the facts get in the way of my beloved doctrine." I refer you back to my totally avoided post. It dismantles your argument.

Your constant avoidance is starting to get old.

What arguments have I avoided? I addressed everything. I don't think you even took time to read my response post.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Hello!!! There is only one "first resurrection." That is a no-brainer. The next resurrection cannot therefore be the first. Think about it. It has already happened. This alone forbids Premil.

This is the second time that you have changed your position on this: First you say that the first resurrection does not include the resurrection of the saints. Then you say it does (Post 282) and you are once again saying that it does not.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If we did not believe the referenced passages to bear witness to the doctrines we hold, we would be providing them. What is missing from the cited passage is a catching up. Now there are other scriptures that bear witness and teach a catching up to occur at some point, but it is not mentioned here thus suggesting that the catching away of the Church must occur before Christ returns to the earth, thus suggesting that between the day of the catching up and the return of Christ, there are still people coming to Christ, even in the day of the judgment that is to come upon the world.

The separation between the sheep and the goats would not be possible if there were no righteous to divide from the wicked. There is no indication that Christ returns to Heaven after returning to the earth here or anywhere else in scripture but that the Kingdom into which the righteous enter will be established upon the earth.

But if indeed this is the final separation of the righteous from the wicked, then why does Revelation 20 foretell another rebellion against Christ and the saints and at a time when their control and rulership over the earth has been firmly established? (Rev. 20:1-9)

Now no one is arguing that there any semi-saved or semi-lost people or third group of people being permitted into the Kingdom brought to earth but this multitude who comes against the camp of God cannot have been among the righteous who will be granted entrance into this Kingdom. They cannot be any of the wicked slain, judged, and cast into the everlasting fire when He returns, but they will have to have arisen from somewhere, and a symbolic interpretation of Revelation 20 will not sufficiently answer this challenge because neither your cited passage nor Revelation 20 will allow for such since the context of both passages of scripture are presented in the literal sense.

Again, you explain away the clear and climactic detail of the general judgement by your faulty opinion of one chapter in Scripture - Rev 20. How sad! This obsession with Rev 20 is both dangerous and unbiblical. This is how you view every eschatological passage. This is definitely very wearying.

Amils rightly interpret Rev 20 in the light of the repeated detailed passages of all Scripture. The reason you do this is tat the rest of Scripture exposes your beliefs.

This is just another example of how you must butcher Scripture in order to support your non-corroborative doctrine. You also add unto Scripture repeatedly - inserting your imaginary future millennium everywhere the Holy Spirit forgot.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Revelation 20 is all I need to corroborate Premil teaching and besides, there are a lot of things mentioned only once in scripture that we accept as truth without demanding further scriptural evidence because if scripture mentions it even once, that is all that is needed to settle it. Why treat Revelation any differently?

The cited passages of scriptures have yet to meet their complete fulfillment but if there aren't any righteous people on the earth before the return of Christ, then it would be impossible for there to be a dividing between the sheep and the goats. Perhaps it is the timing of the catching away that needs to be examined.

I only mentioned the flood to make the point that if the scripture says it, then I simply accept what the scripture says; nothing more, nothing less.

What is telling is that you falsely accuse me of sidestepping everything when you yourself are presented with a challenge to your doctrine that you have no answer to.

They do not refute what I say, but support what I say and even if I did quote them, your above answer would still be the same as it is and I did not ignore your post. I gave my answers to it already. (Post 368)

My previous post refutes everything you are saying here. I refer you back.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
What arguments have I avoided? I addressed everything. I don't think you even took time to read my response post.

Yes i did. I am talking about every single Amil argument on this thread. You have to because you have repeatedly conceded that all you have is your private interpretation of Rev 20. This is what exposes and defeats your whole thesis. This is not biblical hermeneutics but man-made teaching.

When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity – Gnosticism. They invented a pernicious and mindboggling blend of distorted Judaism and distorted Christianity. This involved the invention of two gods to oversee two different peoples of god.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with and widely promoted it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). These two were also condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

What set them apart from the orthodox Chiliasts was obvious not their opinion of the idea of a future millennial earth, no, it was their elevation of the nation Israel in a future millennium, their two-people-of-God-theory, their advocacy for the full restoration of all the old covenant feasts and festivals, a return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) and their support for the restarting of the old covenant priesthood on a future millennial earth.

While these are beliefs that are widely held within both Historic Premillennialism and Dispensational Premillennialism today, they are unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premil.

Notably: none of the ancient Chiliasts supported the idea of Israel rising again to a place of racial superiority in a future millennial kingdom. They all looked upon the Church as true Israel today. They rejected any idea of God blessing any aspect of the redundant Jewish ceremonial arrangement.

They resisted any advancement of the fanciful idea of any type of reintroduction of the old abolished covenant system, including the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the performing of multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man for a thousand years in the future. Such a thought was anathema to them.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
This is the second time that you have changed your position on this: First you say that the first resurrection does not include the resurrection of the saints. Then you say it does (Post 282) and you are once again saying that it does not.

Not so. You are twisting what I said again, like you do Scripture. There is only one first resurrection. Hello! Any after that is a second ... etc. Believers have their part in that through union with Christ. This is a spiritual reality. But there is a physical resurrection coming that is unique and distinct to the first in time and substance, but inextricably linked to it spiritual through our union to Christ. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Again, you explain away the clear and climactic detail of the general judgement by your faulty opinion of one chapter in Scripture - Rev 20. How sad! This obsession with Rev 20 is both dangerous and unbiblical. This is how you view every eschatological passage. This is definitely very wearying.

Amils rightly interpret Rev 20 in the light of the repeated detailed passages of all Scripture. The reason you do this is tat the rest of Scripture exposes your beliefs.

This is just another example of how you must butcher Scripture in order to support your non-corroborative doctrine. You also add unto Scripture repeatedly - inserting your imaginary future millennium everywhere the Holy Spirit forgot.

It is not a faulty opinion of mine, those are the facts.
You claim that the righteous will be caught away upon the return of Christ but cannot answer how it is possible for there to be a division between the sheep and the goats if there are no righteous on the earth when Christ returns.

Amils wrongly interpret Revelation 20 by imposing a symbolic interpretation upon the chapter which the context thereof does not support. We are not the ones who are adding or taking away from scripture to make a doctrine fit. You are the one who is doing that and have failed to answer some legitimate challenges that do need to be addressed. You claim to interpret scripture with scripture, but in all actuality, you are not because you are in some cases imposing interpretations upon the text that is not supported by the context thereof, in other cases, ignoring some contextual details within the text, and deny that the text says what it says.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
It is not a faulty opinion of mine, those are the facts.
You claim that the righteous will be caught away upon the return of Christ but cannot answer how it is possible for there to be a division between the sheep and the goats if there are no righteous on the earth when Christ returns.

Amils wrongly interpret Revelation 20 by imposing a symbolic interpretation upon the chapter which the context thereof does not support. We are not the ones who are adding or taking away from scripture to make a doctrine fit. You are the one who is doing that and have failed to answer some legitimate challenges that do need to be addressed. You claim to interpret scripture with scripture, but in all actuality, you are not because you are in some cases imposing interpretations upon the text that is not supported by the context thereof, in other cases, ignoring some contextual details within the text, and deny that the text says what it says.

All mankind is shown in that passage to be before the same throne at the same time. Please read it and what I wrote. Avoidance only advances your opponents arguments. Men are resurrected to be judged. Read the end of Rev 20. It correlates with the second coming. It is the judgment of the dead, not just the wicked dead as your teachers have taught you.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so. You are twisting what I said again, like you do Scripture. There is only one first resurrection. Hello! Any after that is a second ... etc. Believers have their part in that through union with Christ. This is a spiritual reality. But there is a physical resurrection coming that is unique and distinct to the first in time and substance, but inextricably linked to it spiritual through our union to Christ. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

That is not the way you made it sound in post 282 but this second resurrection cannot be a second resurrection if it is linked to the spiritual resurrection which is the redemption of our souls.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
All mankind is shown in that passage to be before the same throne at the same time. Men are resurrected to be judged. Read the end of Rev 20. It correlates with the second coming. It is the judgment of the dead, not just the wicked dead as your teachers have taught you.

I have read the end of Revelation 20 and it does not correlate with the second coming because the events thereof are foretold as taking place after the second coming. The only events that correlate with the second coming are the binding Satan to the abyss, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the establishment of the rule of Christ on the earth because the events foretold in the first six verses of that chapter take place after the events of chapter 19. You insist that the two chapters are not in chronological order yet have failed to demonstrate how they could not be.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
That is not the way you made it sound in post 282 but this second resurrection cannot be a second resurrection if it is linked to the spiritual resurrection which is the redemption of our souls.

Our spiritual raising from the grave of sin and our physical future resurrection occur because of our union with Christ. They cannot be divorced. But Jesus is the only first resurrection. That occurred 2000 years ago and shows the start of the symbolic millennial reign.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Yes i did. I am talking about every single Amil argument on this thread. You have to because you have repeatedly conceded that all you have is your private interpretation of Rev 20. This is what exposes and defeats your whole thesis. This is not biblical hermeneutics but man-made teaching.

If you really did, then there is no way you can honestly claim that I did not address your arguments but if there is anything I did not address, it is because I did not think it to be relevant to this thread, or you presented a number of different arguments to which my answer would have been the same to each and so rather than repeating the same answer, I will just give a generalized answer.

Accepting scripture according to its given context does not constitute as a private interpretation, even if it pertains to something that the scripture only mentions once, but imposing an interpretation that is not supported by the given context does constitute as such. As I said, there are a lot of things only mentioned once in scripture that we accept without demanding further corroboration.

sovereigngrace said:
When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity – Gnosticism. They invented a pernicious and mindboggling blend of distorted Judaism and distorted Christianity. This involved the invention of two gods to oversee two different peoples of god.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with and widely promoted it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). These two were also condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

While I have not read the writings of these men, even a broken clock can be right twice a day. In this case, there adherence to Premillennialism was not of their making but was based upon their adherence to a literal rendering of Revelation 20 and at a time long before scripture was divided up with chapters and verses.

sovereigngrace said:
While these are beliefs that are widely held within both Historic Premillennialism and Dispensational Premillennialism today, they are unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premil.

The millennial earth is not the new earth of which the Apostle John speaks. It is only in the new earth that sin, death, and decay do not exist. But when Jesus returns to reign upon the earth, He will not allow things to play out and take their course the way that He presently does now. Righteousness will be enforced and any sin and evil will be swiftly dealt with. Men in that day will submit to His rulership whether they want to or not.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Our spiritual raising from the grave of sin and our physical future resurrection occur because of our union with Christ. They cannot be divorced. But Jesus is the only first resurrection. That occurred 2000 years ago and shows the start of the symbolic millennial reign.

If we are united with Christ, then we, by nature, have been made extension of that first resurrection. If we are to hold that position, why else would the Apostle John call the resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection? and if you are going to insist that the millennial reign is symbolic, then you are going to have to show us whereabouts in scripture an interpretation to that number is given.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I have read the end of Revelation 20 and it does not correlate with the second coming because the events thereof are foretold as taking place after the second coming. The only events that correlate with the second coming are the binding Satan to the abyss, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the establishment of the rule of Christ on the earth because the events foretold in the first six verses of that chapter take place after the events of chapter 19. You insist that the two chapters are not in chronological order yet have failed to demonstrate how they could not be.

Of course it does! Revelation 20 shows us what every other passage in Scripture teaches us - that the second coming see the general resurrection of all the dead and the general judgment. Look at what is highlighted in green.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The 4 uses of the word “for” (or gar or seeing) in this reading demonstrates (in all cases) what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

In the case of this passage, the four references to gar connect and further develop the solemn truth of the fall of man and the blessed truth and present reality of Christ’s current heavenly reign over every enemy. Moreover, after clearly telling us that the parousia is “the end” and that it unquestionably corresponds with the all-consummating delivering up of “the kingdom to God,” and with the point “when he shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power” the Holy Spirit simply explains that “he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Of course, Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ’s rule over His enemies is a present reality that will be finally concluded at the appearance of Christ.

As you well know: there is no 1,000 yrs mentioned (or recognized) in this passage. You have to force it into the sacred text. It rather demonstrates (like the rest of Scripture) that the end is the end and that it comes at the return of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

In Luke 20:34-36 Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The Second Coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
My previous post refutes everything you are saying here. I refer you back.

No it doesn't.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If we are united with Christ, then we, by nature, have been made extension of that first resurrection. If we are to hold that position, why else would the Apostle John call the resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection? and if you are going to insist that the millennial reign is symbolic, then you are going to have to show us whereabouts in scripture an interpretation to that number is given.

Moses (Deuteronomy 1:10-11, 7:9, and 32:30), the prophets (Joshua 23:10, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17, Song of Solomon 4:4, Job 9:2-3, Job 33:23, Ecclesiastes 6:3, 6-7, 7:27-28, Psalm 50:10-11, Psalm 84:9-10, 90:3-5, 91:5-7, 105:4, 8-10, Isaiah 7:22-24, 30:17, 60:21-22, Amos 5:1-4 and Micah 6:7) and the NT writers (2 Peter 3:3-4, Rev 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7) used the phrases "a thousand" or "a thousand years" figuratively. On top of that: society uses (and totally comprehends) the symbolic thrust of "a thousand" or "a thousand years."

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Of course it does! Revelation 20 shows us what every other passage in Scripture teaches us - that the second coming see the general resurrection of all the dead and the general judgment. Look at what is highlighted in green.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

But if that is supposed to be the end, then why are eleven other chapters added to the book of Revelation that tell us everything that must come to pass before the events of the above cited passages?

sovereigngrace said:
Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The 4 uses of the word “for” (or gar or seeing) in this reading demonstrates (in all cases) what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

In the case of this passage, the four references to gar connect and further develop the solemn truth of the fall of man and the blessed truth and present reality of Christ’s current heavenly reign over every enemy. Moreover, after clearly telling us that the parousia is “the end” and that it unquestionably corresponds with the all-consummating delivering up of “the kingdom to God,” and with the point “when he shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power” the Holy Spirit simply explains that “he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Of course, Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ’s rule over His enemies is a present reality that will be finally concluded at the appearance of Christ.

As you well know: there is no 1,000 yrs mentioned (or recognized) in this passage. You have to force it into the sacred text. It rather demonstrates (like the rest of Scripture) that the end is the end and that it comes at the return of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For ( since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Rev. 20:4) Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; (Rev. 21-22) when ‘he shall have put down’ all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (Rev. 20:14) For ‘he hath put’ all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(Revelation 21-22)” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Revelation 20:4: Dead in Christ are risen
Revelation 20:14 Death is cast into the lake of fire
Revelation 21-22 All things turned back over to God the Father (also the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.)

That is because the thousand year reign was never relevant to what Paul was inspired to write but it was relevant to what John the Apostle was instructed to write and besides, the thousand year reign was revealed to John and not to Paul.

sovereigngrace said:
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

The earth is the last to become glorified but that does not take place until after the glorification of the saints and after the creation of the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21-22) which requires the destruction of the present heaven and earth (2 Pet. 3:10, 12) and while the wicked are destroyed when Christ returns to the earth, there is no mention of a new earth replacing the old at that time. The present earth continues to abide for a time more as is made clear in Revelation chapter 20.

sovereigngrace said:
Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

Premil does have mortals, the sheep who enter into the millennial kingdom, repopulating the earth but there are no heathens at first. The heathens, being born into the millennial age, do not reveal themselves until after the thousand years has ended (Rev. 20:7-9) but sin will not be as rampant as once before because righteousness will be enforced in that age.

sovereigngrace said:
The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

But apparently the children of God are, but do you even know what "populate" means?

sovereigngrace said:
Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

No one is arguing that the "unsaved" or those who come against Jerusalem are going to enter into the coming Kingdom, but not all mortals living under the rule of Christ are going to die. Some will live to enter into glory just as Christ and the saints before them have.

sovereigngrace said:
The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

No, we do not paint the new perfect earth as being the same as it is today, but it is also not the earth of the thousand year reign and neither are the conditions of the earth under the thousand year reign the same as they presently are today.

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The Second Coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

But not all things are to completion right away. The consummation of all things begins with the second coming of Christ and ends with the creation of an incorruptible earth; hence the thousand year reign.

Contenders Edge · Sep 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Moses (Deuteronomy 1:10-11, 7:9, and 32:30), the prophets (Joshua 23:10, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17, Song of Solomon 4:4, Job 9:2-3, Job 33:23, Ecclesiastes 6:3, 6-7, 7:27-28, Psalm 50:10-11, Psalm 84:9-10, 90:3-5, 91:5-7, 105:4, 8-10, Isaiah 7:22-24, 30:17, 60:21-22, Amos 5:1-4 and Micah 6:7) and the NT writers (2 Peter 3:3-4, Rev 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7) used the phrases "a thousand" or "a thousand years" figuratively. On top of that: society uses (and totally comprehends) the symbolic thrust of "a thousand" or "a thousand years."

Not one of these passages gives us an interpretation to a symbolic thousand years, even if used in a hypothetical sense. They don't even have anything to do with the thousand year reign.

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But if that is supposed to be the end, then why are eleven other chapters added to the book of Revelation that tell us everything that must come to pass before the events of the above cited passages?

I believe Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of end-time events, but is a series of recapitulations or retelling of events that culminate in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 6-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

Click to expand...

says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For ( since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Rev. 20:4) Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; (Rev. 21-22) when ‘he shall have put down’ all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (Rev. 20:14) For ‘he hath put’ all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(Revelation 21-22)” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Revelation 20:4: Dead in Christ are risen
Revelation 20:14 Death is cast into the lake of fire
Revelation 21-22 All things turned back over to God the Father (also the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.)

That is because the thousand year reign was never relevant to what Paul was inspired to write but it was relevant to what John the Apostle was instructed to write and besides, the thousand year reign was revealed to John and not to Paul.

This proves the coming of Christ is the end. The text says it. All rebellion is put down forever. There is no room for some supposed future millennium. This correlates with the end of Satan's little season.

The earth is the last to become glorified but that does not take place until after the glorification of the saints and after the creation of the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21-22) which requires the destruction of the present heaven and earth (2 Pet. 3:10, 12) and while the wicked are destroyed when Christ returns to the earth, there is no mention of a new earth replacing the old at that time. The present earth continues to abide for a time more as is made clear in Revelation chapter 20.

No. The corrupt aspect of this earth is removed by regenerating fire when Jesus comes and replaced with a new perfect earth. Romans 8, 1 Cor 15 and 2 Peter 3 all correlate and prove the Amil scenario and forbids Premil.

Premil does have mortals, the sheep who enter into the millennial kingdom, repopulating the earth but there are no heathens at first. The heathens, being born into the millennial age, do not reveal themselves until after the thousand years has ended (Rev. 20:7-9) but sin will not be as rampant as once before because righteousness will be enforced in that age.

No. I do not know where you get that. It definitely isn't in Matthew 25. It, like every other second coming passage, makes no mention of your supposed future millennial reign. The sheep (dead and alive) are glorified. That is what happens to all the saints when Jesus comes. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

The wicked are all destroyed as Jesus said, likening the wholesale destruction in Noah's day and the city of Sodom.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

There is an awful reward for the Christ-rejecter – this will come on that final last day when all will stand before the throne of God and receive their judgment. There the living and the dead will receive their just reward. Whilst the persecutors and mockers are being destroyed and sent to hell, believers will be ushered into eternal “rest.” The tribulation that they have concentrated upon the righteous will be turned on the perpetrators. The Holy Spirit tells us that Christ appears at His Coming “in flaming fire” with the intention of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

But apparently the children of God are, but do you even know what "populate" means?

Jesus says there is no marriage or death in the age to come, thus reinforcing the Amil argument and negating the Premil one that is filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying.

No one is arguing that the "unsaved" or those who come against Jerusalem are going to enter into the coming Kingdom, but not all mortals living under the rule of Christ are going to die. Some will live to enter into glory just as Christ and the saints before them have.

There are only 2 peoples on planet earth thorough time - saved and lost. The saved are rescued when Jesus comes and the lost are destroyed. You invent some imaginary third group that is unknown to Holy Writ that are too wicked to be rescued and to righteous to be destroyed. The reality is they do not exist. That is a figment of your imagination.

No, we do not paint the new perfect earth as being the same as it is today, but it is also not the earth of the thousand year reign and neither are the conditions of the earth under the thousand year reign the same as they presently are today.

What are the main differences in your view?

But not all things are to completion right away. The consummation of all things begins with the second coming of Christ and ends with the creation of an incorruptible earth; hence the thousand year reign.

Oh, so is this a gradual unfolding progressive renewal of your millennial earth when the earth becomes less corrupt and more pure?

sovereigngrace · Sep 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Not one of these passages gives us an interpretation to a symbolic thousand years, even if used in a hypothetical sense. They don't even have anything to do with the thousand year reign.

Yes they do., You are fighting again with Scripture. Your doctrine forces you to do this on every subject.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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