To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view. More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called[by whom?] "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.[/QUOTE]

Cessationism is a doctrine of some denominations not a Protestant doctrine so lets start there. One fallacy is that all believers receive either all or must receive a particular gift. This not not what is written. 1 Corinthians 12:1-7. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given as the Spirit sees fit or as the Spirit determines there is a need. The gifts are always available and the Holy Spirit uses them through believers as He sees the need.

I'm familiar with hagan , the father of the movement.

yo

Click to expand...

Jesus is YHWH said:

I'm familiar with hagan , the father of the movement.

Click to expand...

You don't need to believe me. But he has opened up more scriptures in the NT that have been shrouded in mystery than anyone else. That is a big deal to me because I have had so many questions and there were so many difficult NT verses that nobody would touch - until I read Hagin. You have 2 Timothy 3:16 saying that all scripture is profitable, but yet so many tough and shocking NT scriptures were not being addressed in the pulpit - what's up?

JohnT said:

I found some definitions from Wiki today, and thought it would be a decent place to express opinions about one's beliefs about the Gifts of Holy Spirit being continued or ceasing. I do request that posters use Scripture in its context to back things up, and also to state "I am just guessing" when you are unsure.

Just as all of us do not have the same gifts, we do not all have the same ministry.

1 Corinthians 12:
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.​

ESV

Therefore, just I cannot condemn you for being different than me, so also you cannot condemn me for being different than you. However, we ALL must answer to the same Master.

Let's begin!

Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view. More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called[by whom?] "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.

Click to expand...

The verse you quoted definitely proves that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still around today, just continue down to verses 8-10: To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. In fact the entire Chapter of 1 Corinthians 12, says that tongues and miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit still exist today.

But, who gets what kind of gifts, such as speaking in tongues, depends solely on the discretion of the Holy Spirit.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.(1 Corinthians 12:27-30).
They all come from that same Spirit. But contrary to what most Pentecostals believe, not every Christian speaks in tongues, not even in Spirit Baptism. And being able to do so or prophecy, or cast out demons, certainly doesn't mean you're really a Christian (Matthew 7:21-22).

John Mullally said:

You don't need to believe me. But he has opened up more scriptures in the NT that have been shrouded in mystery than anyone else. That is a big deal to me because I have had so many questions and there were so many difficult NT verses that nobody would touch - until I read Hagin. You have 2 Timothy 3:16 saying that all scripture is profitable, but yet so many tough and shocking NT scriptures were not being addressed in the pulpit - what's up?

Click to expand...

I'm not into discovering the mysteries and hidden meanings of scripture. The plain ones are more than enough in my book. Like Paul says :

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

You did strike up a deal.

Yes 1 Corinthians 13:2 is important, but it does not cancel the rest of the NT. And if all scripture is inspired - then the part you reserve for not being addressed needs to be addressed!

Bible Highlighter said:

You may find this thread I created a while back helpful.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 13 and 14, which are used for Cessationalits were mostly for Paul rebuking the Corinthians that just because they can speak in tongues that they are holier than thou art. For instance, the Apostolic/Oneness Pentecostals, who believe that if you're saved you will speak in tongues, falls right into that category. But obviously, unlike the Corinthians, the Apostolic Pentecostals do a lot better in holy living, though it's through a rigid, one-size-fits-all "holiness code."
Another extreme measure going in a different direction, are these independent Pentecostal churches, like the Follower's of Christ/Kissers in the Pacific Northwest, and even a few non-Pentecostal churches, like the Church of God (Restoration) that emphasize faith healing waaaaay to far, to the point that going to doctors, hospitals, or taking medicine either shows that you don't really have faith, or even a sin, or a coward. That teaching has resulted in unneeded deaths or disabilities from illnesses or injuries that, if treated promptly and right away with medical treatment, full recovery is possible or the norm.
On the opposite extreme end of the pendelum, Pensecola Christian College, an Independent Fundie Baptist-affiliated (IFB is cessationalaist) college, takes cessationalism as far as actually forbidding it's students from speaking in tongues, which flies in the face of 1 Corinthians 14:39. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
Furthermore in 1 Corinthians 14:1-12, Paul was giving some examples on how to properly use the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is YHWH said:

impossible demons are not in a believer. thats an oxymoron

Click to expand...

There goes someone who hasn't the slightest clue about demons and deliverance.

Mark16v17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
So tell us, who are the demons being cast out of in this command of Jesus, unbelievers or believers?

Here's what happens when you cast demons out of unbelievers.-
Lk11v24“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

As can be seen, driving demons out of unbelievers is completely foolish and counter productive.
The ministry of deliverance is solely aimed at the saints, to set them free from demonic influence and control.

I have been casting demons out of Christians for the last 40 odd years, what experience of casting demons out do you have?

So now my friend, you are faced with a theological dilemma.
1) during his ministry, Jesus taught the disciples to cast out demons and sent them forth to do so.
2) When he commissioned them, Jesus said that casting demons out would be a normal sign of those who believe.
3) Through the Acts of the apostles, it was common practice that demons were cast out of people.
4) Jesus clearly said that casting demons out of unbelievers is dangerous.
5) Casting demons out of believers sets them free in their spiritual journey, and removes the power of demons to corrupt their thinking or take them into darkness.

It's make your mind up time, hang onto your theological nonsense, or get real about spiritual warfare..

Francis Drake said:

There goes someone who hasn't the slightest clue about demons and deliverance.

Mark16v17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
So tell us, who are the demons being cast out of in this command of Jesus, unbelievers or believers?

Here's what happens when you cast demons out of unbelievers.-
Lk11v24“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

As can be seen, driving demons out of unbelievers is completely foolish and counter productive.
The ministry of deliverance is solely aimed at the saints, to set them free from demonic influence and control.

I have been casting demons out of Christians for the last 40 odd years, what experience of casting demons out do you have?

So now my friend, you are faced with a theological dilemma.
1) during his ministry, Jesus taught the disciples to cast out demons and sent them forth to do so.
2) When he commissioned them, Jesus said that casting demons out would be a normal sign of those who believe.
3) Through the Acts of the apostles, it was common practice that demons were cast out of people.
4) Jesus clearly said that casting demons out of unbelievers is dangerous.
5) Casting demons out of believers sets them free in their spiritual journey, and removes the power of demons to corrupt their thinking or take them into darkness.

It's make your mind up time, hang onto your theological nonsense, or get real about spiritual warfare..

Click to expand...

I've never heard of such HERESY. The way you twist the scriptures are incredible.

Jesus is YHWH said:

I've never heard of such HERESY. The way you twist the scriptures are incredible.

Click to expand...

Lol
Don't get cross at me, just answer to the points, and show me where I twisted scripture if you can.

Jesus is YHWH said:

I'm not into discovering the mysteries and hidden meanings of scripture. The plain ones are more than enough in my book.

Click to expand...

So it is pick and choose. Mysteries and hidden meanings are left to the elite - sounds Romanesque.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

JohnT said:

That is quite a different thing, and unrelated to the gift of healing. Essentially, Paul is saying the equivalent of "Take some Maalox for your stomach". We all know that taken in moderation, because the Bible strongly condemns getting drunk, that there is medicinal properties in alcohol.

Did you notice that the shelves in your local stores ran out of hand sanitizers recently? That is another example of the medicinal properties of alcohol.

Healing in the Bible did not relieve mundane things like Irritable Bowel Syndrome. However, it was focused on lameness, blindness, and the woman in who had 11 years of vaginal bleeding. (Matthew 9:20; Mark 5: 26)

What you have done is created an analogy of false comparison, and used silence ("Paul never said...") to essentially make a claim that healing is bogus.

So while I am really not scolding you, the usage of logical fallacies in argumentation automatically invalidate the thesis of the user. Repent, you sinner!

Click to expand...

Have you ever wondered why people who teach that signs and wonders are for today, that the gospel of the kingdom is still to be preached today, and then healings always accompanied that preaching, they rarely use Romans to Philemon for that purpose?

Instead, its almost always the 4 Gospels and Acts.

John Mullally said:

Don't care to - not required to. Go handle Mark 11:23-24 and get back to me - it is addressed to anyone.

Click to expand...

Have you addressed my question about on Matthew 19:28 yet? Does that promise apply to anyone as well?

It has been a while - I think you are actually referring to John 14:12 that I mentioned - I never mentioned Matthew 19:28 - I believe it was your response to my bringing up John 14:12. Jesus stated John 14:12 as being addressed to whoever believes. Take your argument to him. Sorry.

John Mullally said:

It has been a while - I think you are actually referring to John 14:12 that I mentioned - I never mentioned Matthew 19:28 - it was your mention. Jesus stated John 14:12 as being addressed to whoever believes. Take your argument to him. Sorry.

Click to expand...

You asked me about John 14:12, and I answered it and showed how it applied to Peter and Paul.

But when I asked you about Matthew 19:28 and asked you whether it also applies to everyone, you decline to answer

SaintCody777 said:

The verse you quoted definitely proves that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still around today, just continue down to verses 8-10: To one there is given...

Click to expand...

In fact the entire Chapter of 1 Corinthians 12, says that tongues and miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit still exist today.

Click to expand...

Actually, there is nothing in those passages that says these gifts will be present through all of time to come. They are obviously addressed to the those who were the readers and listeners at that time, whether or not anyone among us now thinks the gifts continued uninterrupted.

But there is also this, which no one ever seems to mention. The modern Pentecostal movement dates from several centuries ago, and involves several separate events which amounted to a call to RESTORE the gifts to the church.

So today, the heirs of those people tell the rest of us that the gifts never ceased even though their own movement was based upon the idea of bringing them back into use!

Guojing said:

You asked me about John 14:12, and I answered it and showed how it applied to Peter and Paul.

Click to expand...

Even if only the disciples heard it, the audience is "who believes in me". If you don't like that - take it up with the author.

John 14:12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Albion said:

Actually, there is nothing in those passages that says these gifts will be present through all of time to come. They are obviously addressed to the those who were the readers and listeners at that time, whether or not anyone among us now thinks the gifts continued uninterrupted.

But there is also this, which no one ever seems to mention. The modern Pentecostal movement dates from several centuries ago, and involves several separate events which amounted to a call to RESTORE the gifts to the church.

So today, the heirs of those people tell the rest of us that the gifts never ceased even though their own movement was based upon the idea of bringing them back into use!

Click to expand...

This would be a shock to the old-fashioned Pentecostals who see members of the Anglican and Lutheran churches as dead and lukewarm, and "lacking in the Holy Spirit."
But Anglicanism and Lutheranism, along with Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, are continuationalist by definition.Thats obviously because of the ritualistic liturgy of priests turning bread to the body of Christ, and their sacraments or ordinances of confession, anointing of the sick.
It was not until John Calvin when cessationalism really took a hold in the church. I might be more aligned with the 2nd wave Charismatic movement than Pentecostalism. But the practice of glossia was practiced throughout church history between the apostles and Azusa. The Anabaptists practiced some glossia or miraculous gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongued. The early Methodist movement, an ancestor of the Holiness and Pentecostal movements. with John Wesley also reported miraculous tongue speaking.

Albion said:

Actually, there is nothing in those passages that says these gifts will be present through all of time to come.

Click to expand...

If the gifts did cease, where is the notice in scripture?

John Mullally said:

Even if only the disciples heard it, the audience is "who believes in me". If you don't like that - take it up with the author.

John 14:12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Click to expand...

But you do agree that Matthew 19:28 could not apply to every Christian right?

Why the difference in our beliefs, when both are statements from Christ?