Revelation perspective question....

It's all of them so really can't vote

It organizes events in the Tanakh.

ISteveB said:

who here views Revelation as solely figurative?

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Me, though I call it symbolic and written to the Christians in the 1st Century who knew the symbolism.

ISteveB said:

I can't specifically place this in one of the subgroups, because it pertains to a general theme or perspective of Revelation.

who here views Revelation as solely figurative?

Who here views as a combination of figurative, and literal?

Has anyone here ever heard that Revelation has over 800 allusions to the Old Testament (there are only 404 verses in Rev)?

I.e., everything in Revelation is based on something which has its origins in the OT.
eg, Parallel Passages in New Testament Quoted from Old Testament :: Part V - Study Resources

Thank you.

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The Revelation is both figurative and literal, and uses the prophetic language of the Old Testament to describe its events. The writer uses the language of the Old Testament to describe past, present, and future events, as he was told to write "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this."

/nvm

i see Revelation first and foremost as a spiritual book, it talks about the fight between good and evil in this world as well as in a person's own inner world of being. The dragon accuser and that unfaithful prostitute lives in every bodies sinful heart, as do the false prophet and the son of lawlessness.

Only faith in God's love, Jesus Christ, can set us free from them.

A Jesus Revelation is necessary for a believer to enter into the finer workings of the book of Revelation and land in Chapter 20 ruling beside Christ in His Kingdom of loving truth.

i wrote a poem about the events once which i would like to share.

Faith's Night means dark Times.
Dragon's breath, yes Satan's spit
igniting fidelity burning faithfulness.
Soul burning my heart alight
frying transgression, roasting sin
hellish moments means hot times.

See malefic accuser with his nasty tongue
attacking repose, assaulting my safety
Vehement iniquity, my own wrongdoing
pardoning aught, i'm totally unforgiven
obliterating grace - no mercy for me.

Faithful conceal while faith in good dies
agonising sorrows causing terrible grief
confusion prevalent, troubling thoughts
anguish ensuing while fear attacks
lowly remainder - little faith left.

False prophet with his lying suggestions
hollering loudly, a screaming voice
verity retreating while my truth dies
i see overpowering treachery within
guidance warped i'm directionalless.

Procuring more sinfulness to sprout
reproach litigates, my guilt accusing
Repentance baulking, unstoppable wrong
reviving evil visited by wickedness
grave astuteness i'm in terrible trouble.

Loathsome inner kings ruling
destruction reigning, spiritual devastation
inducing chaos increasing my unrest
Much inner turmoil, great upheaval within
i see my heart warring with my soul aching.

Lawlessness guzzles unfaithful decisions
intoxicating my lifeblood, robbing all logic
With faith deceased my trust dies
seeing wrong feasting my sins
spawning Sheol, awakening Hell.

Surprisingly detect, amazed to see
profane Beast, that blasphemous god
outlawry attacking unfaithful love
devouring physique and eating my flesh
cauterising my spirit and burning my ego.

Angelic ferocity comes in Heavenly power
anger enkindle furiously
laying waste wiping out
ruining Babylon mind control dies
Chosen laudatory as life celebrates.

Seeing Scripture The Word of God
execute justice in fairness
deriving trueness in the soul
exposing my heart and baring my intent
chastising my mind and correcting my views.

Christ Within seeing The Truth rule
Light dawning loving my life
passing darkness as the lies leave
The Truth is triumphant for Jesus won
Eternal celebrations - hallelujah!

ISteveB said:

I can't specifically place this in one of the subgroups, because it pertains to a general theme or perspective of Revelation.

who here views Revelation as solely figurative?

Who here views as a combination of figurative, and literal?

Has anyone here ever heard that Revelation has over 800 allusions to the Old Testament (there are only 404 verses in Rev)?

I.e., everything in Revelation is based on something which has its origins in the OT.
eg, Parallel Passages in New Testament Quoted from Old Testament :: Part V - Study Resources

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Amen a lot of OT scripture being referenced in the book of Revelation - however Revelation has some elements figurative and some are literal -- all the while including a lot of OT references.

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7

Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.

The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5989 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will show that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

John was a witness to actual events. He wrote them down as he witnessed them. He wrote for a 1st century OT audience.

Even the Gospels were pre church.

Revelation was given to 7 specific churches as it would be the most important book of the NT like Genesis was the most important book in the OT. Literally the alpha and omega. The beginning and the end.

Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible.

The 'experts' on it are like grains of sand on a beach.

ISteveB said:

I can't specifically place this in one of the subgroups, because it pertains to a general theme or perspective of Revelation.

who here views Revelation as solely figurative?

Who here views as a combination of figurative, and literal?

Has anyone here ever heard that Revelation has over 800 allusions to the Old Testament (there are only 404 verses in Rev)?

I.e., everything in Revelation is based on something which has its origins in the OT.
eg, Parallel Passages in New Testament Quoted from Old Testament :: Part V - Study Resources

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Are there Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation?


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".



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ISteveB said:

I don't see where the bible says the rapture/harpadzo/great snatching away is the second coming.

Paul says in 1 thess. 4:17 that Jesus will be in the clouds, and we will go up to meet him in the air.

According to all the other passages which discuss the second coming says he'll come in the clouds, EVERY eye will see him, and he'll land on the Mt of Olives, splitting the mountain in half--- the fault line will run east to west, opening up a spring, which will run out to the Dead sea, and open it up for a lively fishing trade.

He'll spend 45 days judging the nations, and afterwards, the Kingdom starts.

as for recapitulation.... would you please explain that? Never heard of it used in this context before.

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Former Pretrib believer Steven Straub reveals the gathering of the Church below.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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ISteveB said:

I can't specifically place this in one of the subgroups, because it pertains to a general theme or perspective of Revelation.

who here views Revelation as solely figurative?

Who here views as a combination of figurative, and literal?

Has anyone here ever heard that Revelation has over 800 allusions to the Old Testament (there are only 404 verses in Rev)?

I.e., everything in Revelation is based on something which has its origins in the OT.
eg, Parallel Passages in New Testament Quoted from Old Testament :: Part V - Study Resources

Thank you.

Click to expand...

i do and its meaning pertaining to the process found within the whole book as a cohesive narrative speaks to the same end ...

ISteveB said:

So, I don't see what you're claiming. I see a saviour who is coming for his bride, and those who are ready will go when he comes, and those who are not, will remain.... ironically--- it's pretty clear he does not want his bride to remain in this world for the final seven years.

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You are attempting to promote a doctrine which is less than 200 years old, and was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.
Based on thousands of pages of notes, and sermons, the preachers who lived in America at the time of the Revolutionary War would have never heard what you are preaching.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


Below you will find the video I produced for YouTube, which reveals the original source of modern Dispensational Theology.
The greatest error of the doctrine is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. That claim is found in the document.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology


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THE FOUR VISIONS

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person. There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.

Vision 1. CHRIST - Head of the Body. (Rev. 1 – 3)

This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.
`in His right hand He held 7 stars.`


Vision 2. CHRIST - HEIR (Rev. 4 – 7)

This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.
`in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`


Vision 3. CHRIST - MEDIATOR (Rev. 8 – 13)

This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.
`in His hand is a sacred censor.`


Vision 4. CHRIST - JUDGE (Rev. 14 – 22)

This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.
`in His hand is a sharp sickle.`



To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.


This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

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