JW If these verses were missing would that matter doctrine wise?

Daniel Marsh

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"However, because the verse division generally accepted in Bible translations was already established in the 16th century, the omission of these verses now creates gaps in the verse numbering in most Bibles. The verses are Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; and Romans 16:24." https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/appendix-a/how-the-bible-came-to-us/#p1 Use the plus sign here to read those verses The Missing Verses from the New World Translation
 

com7fy8

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So, you're saying they leave out Mark 11:26 >

"'But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:26)

We have other scriptures which say God wants us to forgive. So, even if they leave out this verse, still someone can find scriptures which say God wants us to forgive. Plus, we have the example of Jesus who prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

Jesus on the cross is our example > Ephesians 5:2.
 
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com7fy8

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Romans 16:24 >

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Romans 16:24)

This does not say God's grace be with us, but the grace of Jesus be with us. Grace is God's; so if grace can be of Jesus, this can support that Jesus is God . . . as the Son. So, this can be a verse which supports Jesus being divine, which Jehovah's Witnesses deny.

So, leaving this out might somewhat help to keep people from seeing that Jesus is divine.

But on the whole I do not see how these omitted scriptures serve some doctrinal agenda of Jehovah's Witnesses. Each verse is significant, though, since each is God's word.
 
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tampasteve

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We should never make doctrine or declarative statements based on one verse as it is. So, removing these individual verses should not affect the overall revelation of Salvation of the nature of God.
 
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tampasteve

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And honestly, the JW NWT "translation" is just not a reliable translation to use for serious study. They may be right about the verses missing in some/all early manuscripts in some of the cases, but the whole NWT was designed with interpreting the words to prove their theology. That is not to say that some other translations, and specifically "Study Bibles" don't do the same thing, but approach the NWT with the idea that it has an agenda to prove.
 
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Dale

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"However, because the verse division generally accepted in Bible translations was already established in the 16th century, the omission of these verses now creates gaps in the verse numbering in most Bibles. The verses are Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; and Romans 16:24." https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/appendix-a/how-the-bible-came-to-us/#p1 Use the plus sign here to read those verses The Missing Verses from the New World Translation


Daniel,

When I click on one of those verses, it leads to a Jehovah's Witness site.
I'm not sure that's a good source of information.
 
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LightBearer

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So, you're saying they leave out Mark 11:26 >

"'But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:26)

We have other scriptures which say God wants us to forgive. So, even if they leave out this verse, still someone can find scriptures which say God wants us to forgive. Plus, we have the example of Jesus who prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

Jesus on the cross is our example > Ephesians 5:2.

This is what the NWT states for Mark 11:26:

Mark 11:26
Some ancient manuscripts here read: “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.” These words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are evidently not part of the original text of Mark. Similar words, though, can be found at Mt 6:15 as part of the inspired Scriptures.—See App. A3.

Regards.
 
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LightBearer

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Romans 16:24 >

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Romans 16:24)

This does not say God's grace be with us, but the grace of Jesus be with us. Grace is God's; so if grace can be of Jesus, this can support that Jesus is God . . . as the Son. So, this can be a verse which supports Jesus being divine, which Jehovah's Witnesses deny.

So, leaving this out might somewhat help to keep people from seeing that Jesus is divine.

But on the whole I do not see how these omitted scriptures serve some doctrinal agenda of Jehovah's Witnesses. Each verse is significant, though, since each is God's word.

This is what the NWT states about Romans 16:24:

Romans 16:24
Some Greek manuscripts and ancient translations into other languages add: “May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.” Other manuscripts include these words after verse 27. However, in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, a similar phrase appears only in verse 20. It does not appear as verse 24, nor is it found after verse 27. This manuscript evidence strongly indicates that such additions are not part of the original text.—See App. A3.

Note the statement "However, in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, a similar phrase appears only in verse 20.".

As it does the NWT.

NWT Romans 16:20 "For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Indeed, no doctrinal agenda whatsoever.

PS. Just to correct an erroneous remark:

com7fy8> "leaving this out might somewhat help to keep people from seeing that Jesus is divine."

Jehovah's Witnesses do believe that Jesus is divine. We didn't leave it out. :)


Regards.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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This is what the NWT states about Romans 16:24:

Romans 16:24
Some Greek manuscripts and ancient translations into other languages add: “May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.” Other manuscripts include these words after verse 27. However, in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, a similar phrase appears only in verse 20. It does not appear as verse 24, nor is it found after verse 27. This manuscript evidence strongly indicates that such additions are not part of the original text.—See App. A3.

Note the statement "However, in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, a similar phrase appears only in verse 20.".

As it does the NWT.

NWT Romans 16:20 "For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Indeed, no doctrinal agenda whatsoever.

PS. Just to correct an erroneous remark:

com7fy8> "leaving this out might somewhat help to keep people from seeing that Jesus is divine."

Jehovah's Witnesses do believe that Jesus is divine. We didn't leave it out. :)


Regards.

As you can see below friend, there is no significant variance in the Greek. "undeserved kindness" is another way of saying Grace in modern English. Has the watchtower published a parallel edition of the various editions of the NWT? or is such online, I would love to see the comparisons.

Revelation 1:8
Greek Texts
Berean Greek New Testament 2016
“Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ,” λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.
SBL Greek New Testament 2010
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει κύριος, ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.

Westcott and Hort 1881
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος, ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος, ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος, ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Tischendorf 8th Edition 1872
ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ω, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ Κύριος, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὁ παντοκράτωρ

Beza Greek New Testament 1598
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος λέγει ὁ Κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

Revelation 1:8 Parallel Greek Texts

Revelation 1:8
Text Analysis
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
1473 [e] Egō Ἐγώ I PPro-N1S
1510 [e] eimi εἰμι am V-PIA-1S
3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-NNS
1 [e] Alpha Ἄλφα Alpha N-NNS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-NNS
5598 [e] Ō Ὦ, Omega, N-NNS
746 [e] archē {ἀρχὴ [the] beginning N-NFS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
5056 [e] telos τέλος}, [the] ending N-NNS
3004 [e] legei λέγει says V-PIA-3S
2962 [e] Kyrios Κύριος Lord N-NMS
3588 [e] ho ὁ - Art-NMS
2316 [e] Theos Θεός, God, N-NMS
3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS
1510 [e] ōn ὢν being, V-PPA-NMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3588 [e] ho ὁ who Art-NMS
1510 [e] ēn ἦν was, V-IIA-3S
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3588 [e] ho ὁ who Art-NMS
2064 [e] erchomenos ἐρχόμενος, is coming, V-PPM/P-NMS
3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS
3841 [e] Pantokratōr Παντοκράτωρ. Almighty. N-NMS
Revelation 1:8 Greek Text Analysis

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magaz...teful-recipients-of-gods-undeserved-kindness/
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Romans 16:20




Romans 16 - Click for Chapter
20 3588 [e]
20 Ho
20 Ὁ
20 The
20 Art-NMS
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
now
Conj
2316 [e]
Theos
Θεὸς
God
N-NMS
3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
-
Art-GFS
1515 [e]
eirēnēs
εἰρήνης
of peace
N-GFS
4937 [e]
syntripsei
συντρίψει
will crush
V-FIA-3S
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
-
Art-AMS
4567 [e]
Satanan
Σατανᾶν
Satan
N-AMS
5259 [e]
hypo
ὑπὸ
under
Prep
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
the
Art-AMP
4228 [e]
podas
πόδας
feet
N-AMP
4771 [e]
hymōn
ὑμῶν
of you
PPro-G2P
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
5034 [e]
tachei
τάχει .
a short time
N-DNS
3588 [e]


The
Art-NFS
5485 [e]
charis
χάρις
grace
N-NFS
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
of the
Art-GMS
2962 [e]
Kyriou
Κυρίου
Lord
N-GMS
1473 [e]
hēmōn
ἡμῶν
of us
PPro-G1P
2424 [e]
Iēsou
Ἰησοῦ
Jesus
N-GMS
5547 [e]
Christou
‹Χριστοῦ›
Christ
N-GMS
3326 [e]
meth’
μεθ’
[be] with
Prep
4771 [e]
hymōn
ὑμῶν .
you
PPro-G2P




Romans 16:20 Interlinear: and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen!



Greek Texts
ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ὁ δὲ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν.
ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ' ὑμῶν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ' ὑμῶν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
ὁ δὲ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ὁ δὲ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν. ἀμήν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:20 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μεθ' ὑμῶν

Romans 16:20 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ’ ὑμῶν.
KJV with Strong's
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly __ The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you Amen
Romans 16:20 Hebrew Bible
ואלהי השלום הוא ידכא את השטן במהרה תחת רגליכם חסד אדנינו ישוע המשיח עמכם׃

Romans 16:20 Aramaic NT: Peshitta
ܐܠܗܐ ܕܝܢ ܕܫܠܡܐ ܢܫܚܩܝܘܗܝ ܒܥܓܠ ܠܤܛܢܐ ܬܚܝܬ ܪܓܠܝܟܘܢ ܛܝܒܘܬܗ ܕܡܪܢ ܝܫܘܥ ܡܫܝܚܐ ܬܗܘܐ ܥܡܟܘܢ ܀

Additional Parallel Greek

Romans 16:20 Greek Text Analysis
 
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Romans 16
New International Version
Personal Greetings
16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[a] of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3 Greet Priscilla[c] and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

6 Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[d] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.

Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.

11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.

Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people who are with them.

16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.

17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

21 Timothy, my co-worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews.

22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.

23 Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.

Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings. [24] [e]

25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[f] faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Footnotes
Romans 16:1 Or servant
Romans 16:1 The word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.
Romans 16:3 Greek Prisca, a variant of Priscilla
Romans 16:7 Or are esteemed by
Romans 16:24 Some manuscripts include here May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.
Romans 16:26 Or that is

Contemporary English Version
Then God, who gives peace, will soon crush Satan under your feet. I pray that our Lord Jesus will be kind to you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. May the good will of our Lord Jesus be with you!

grace
χάρις (charis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 5485: From chairo; graciousness, of manner or act.

The grace. . . .--The more correct reading of the benediction is simply. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you, the other words being omitted. The four principal Graeco-Latin Codices omit the benediction here altogether and insert it in Romans 16:24, where it also appears in the Received text, though wanting in MSS. of the best type.

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
 
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Revelation 1
New International Version

Prologue
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Greetings and Doxology
4 John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”


John’s Vision of Christ
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

From the context we see that the book is about Jesus.
 
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