Is Jesus God?

JohnDB · Sep 15, 2020

Ricky Tjin said:
According to the John 1:1-2 of the Hebrew New Testament God the Father is called HaElohim (הָאֱלֹהִים) and Jesus Christ is called Elohim (אֱלֹהִים).
In Hebrew Biblical context, when the prefix "Ha" (הָ) is used, it can stand for 'unique', 'Supreme' and 'Authoritarian'. The Hebrew word Elohim is the plural form of God.

Jesus Christ is the Word, Who already existed at the beginning, and He was with HaElohim (God The Father) and He Was Elohim (God the Son). Jesus Christ is God the Word, Who already Existed in the beginning, through Who all things were made, and without Jesus Christ, nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
Jesus Christ is the Word, Who became flesh, to fulfill the Scriptures (John 1:14).

The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the same person that the Bible calls Michael the archangel (Source: IIR.org » Is Jesus Michael the archangel).
Angels are creatures, that are created.

Jesus Christ is not created, but He is straightly born out of God the Father, HaElohim.
For HaElohim so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (Jesus Christ, Who is Elohim), that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16 NKJV).
Jesus Christ is not created, but He is the only begotten Son of HaElohim, Who has His birth straight from HaElohim the Father. Jesus Christ is Elohim, and and God the Father is HaElohim, Who is "The Greater and Supreme Elohim".

When we were born again, we became children of God (sons and daughters), by adoption (Romans 8:14-16 NKJV).

According to Mark 2:5-7, Jesus Christ said to the paralytic "Son, your sins are forgiven you.", and then He was blamed for speaking blasphemies, because only God alone can forgive sins. Jesus Christ declared that He has power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10 NKJV).

Jesus Christ declared that He gives His sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of His hand (John 10:27-28). Is there anyone beside God who can give eternal life. Isn't God the only One Who can give eternal life? So, If Jesus Christ gives eternal life, He is God.

HaElohim the Father and Jesus Christ (Elohim) are One, and They are sitting on the throne next to each other. (John 10:30 & Romans 8:34)

Let's not forget as well what the Angel Gabriel told Mary that his name was to be "Emanuel" meaning "God with us".

Ricky Tjin · Sep 15, 2020

JohnDB said:
Let's not forget as well what the Angel Gabriel told Mary that his name was to be "Emanuel" meaning "God with us".

I understand your reference to "Emanuel" meaning "God with us", but I don't know where you got name "Emanuel" from; it seems like a mistake. Can you explain it?

The Name of our Saviour, Who is known as Jesus Christ, is written as Immanuel (עמנו אל).
Matthew 1:23 NKJV Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name "Immanuel", which is translated, "God with us."

Isaiah 7:14 NKJV Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

I believe that Immanuel (עמנו אל) is the true name of the Messiah, as is prophesied for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but it is not really honoured by many people who call themselves Christians.

Salvation is came forth from the Jews (John 4:22) and the Messiah Immanuel was a Jew.

I don't know how far you want to go, about going back to the original name Immanuel as is prophesied, but the name Jesus is known as a pagan name, to replace the original name of our Savior Immanuel.
Soruce: Chosenofisrael.com » The "Jesus" Name Deception
The Greek root word for name is onoma (G3686) and is described as:
a name (literally or figuratively), authority, character, and for everything which the name covers. It's good to know Immanuel the Messiah in all His way; His authority, character and fame.

The Messiah Immanuel shed His blood when He died at the cross of Golgotha, for the sin of the world, and He became the High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption, for those who believe in Him faithfully (Hebrews 9:11-12 NKJV).

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Teacher_Of_Truth said:
I'm interested in what everyone has to say.

Romans 1:7
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philemon 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The God the Son incarnate By Wellum, Stephen J. makes the point that the word from relates to both The Father and Lord Jesus Christ are equal in nature.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Teacher_Of_Truth said:
Ah, I see! Thank you. I have some friends who don't believe that Jesus is God but they do believe that he's the Messiah. I was wondering if anyone here could shed insight

The Messiah is God, Divine. A Divine Messiah - Bible Society in Israel
Chapter Nine: Messiah—God the Son? by Mark Eastman
What Bible verses say the Messiah would be God?
The Messiah Would be God!
"

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of Rom. 10:13 must be the "Lord" of Rom. 10:9, 10:12.
2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (Phil. 2:11), i.e., Jehovah.
3. Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. Psa. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
4. 1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8 a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in 1 Pet. 2:3 is Jesus.
5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
6. Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
Jesus has the titles of God
1. Titles belonging only to God
  1. The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
  2. King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
2. Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God
  1. Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. Titus 2:10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 118:21
  2. Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
  3. Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8
Jesus received the honors due to God alone
1. Honor: John 5:23
2. Love: Matt. 10:37
3. Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 23:46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. 2 Cor. 12:9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.
4. Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
5. Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13
6. Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13
7. Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.
Jesus does the works of God
1. Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archê probably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
2. Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 1:11-12
3. Salvation:
  1. In General: See C.2.a. above
  2. Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
4. All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)
Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
1. All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
2. Self-existent: John 5:26
3. Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); Heb. 13:8
4. Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
5. Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11
6. Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. John 2:23-24
7. Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27
Jesus is "equal with God"
1. John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In John 5:17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in John 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
2. Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (Phil. 2:7-11)
Jesus is the Son of God
1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
Objections"
The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Teacher_Of_Truth said:
This is really helpful actually. May I please ask for some verses on how the holy spirit and Jesus are the same as well?

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Tell that Paul then. Pff.

Please define your beliefs friend. Make a list of them and try to find them among the Church Fathers at newadvent.org

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
You either call Paul a liar or you don't understand the trinity yourself.
Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. There is only one God. Now read Romans 8 again

Romans 8
Easy-to-Read Version
Life in the Spirit
8 So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty. 2 That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you[a] free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death. 3 The law was without power because it was made weak by our sinful selves. But God did what the law could not do: He sent his own Son to earth with the same human life that everyone else uses for sin. God sent him to be an offering to pay for sin. So God used a human life to destroy sin. 4 He did this so that we could be right just as the law said we must be. Now we don’t live following our sinful selves. We live following the Spirit.

5 People who live following their sinful selves think only about what they want. But those who live following the Spirit are thinking about what the Spirit wants them to do. 6 If your thinking is controlled by your sinful self, there is spiritual death. But if your thinking is controlled by the Spirit, there is life and peace. 7 Why is this true? Because anyone whose thinking is controlled by their sinful self is against God. They refuse to obey God’s law. And really they are not able to obey it. 8 Those who are ruled by their sinful selves cannot please God.

9 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. 10 Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God. 11 God raised Jesus from death. And if God’s Spirit lives in you, he will also give life to your bodies that die. Yes, God is the one who raised Christ from death, and he will raise you to life through his Spirit living in you.

12 So, my brothers and sisters, we must not be ruled by our sinful selves. We must not live the way our sinful selves want. 13 If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life.

14 The true children of God are those who let God’s Spirit lead them. 15 The Spirit that we received is not a spirit that makes us slaves again and causes us to fear. The Spirit that we have makes us God’s chosen children. And with that Spirit we cry out, “ Abba, Father.” 16 And the Spirit himself speaks to our spirits and makes us sure that we are God’s children. 17 If we are God’s children, we will get the blessings God has for his people. He will give us all that he has given Christ. But we must suffer like Christ suffered. Then we will be able to share his glory.

We Will Have Glory in the Future
18 We have sufferings now, but these are nothing compared to the great glory that will be given to us. 19 Everything that God made is waiting with excitement for the time when he will show the world who his children are. The whole world wants very much for that to happen. 20 Everything God made was allowed to become like something that cannot fulfill its purpose. That was not its choice, but God made it happen with this hope in view: 21 That the creation would be made free from ruin—that everything God made would have the same freedom and glory that belong to God’s children.

22 We know that everything God made has been waiting until now in pain like a woman ready to give birth to a child. 23 Not only the world, but we also have been waiting with pain inside us. We have the Spirit as the first part of God’s promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us his own children. I mean we are waiting for our bodies to be made free. 24 We were saved to have this hope. If we can see what we are waiting for, that is not really hope. People don’t hope for something they already have. 25 But we are hoping for something we don’t have yet, and we are waiting for it patiently.

26 Also, the Spirit helps us. We are very weak, but the Spirit helps us with our weakness. We don’t know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself speaks to God for us. He begs God for us, speaking to him with feelings too deep for words. 27 God already knows our deepest thoughts. And he understands what the Spirit is saying, because the Spirit speaks for his people in the way that agrees with what God wants.

28 We know that in everything God works for the good of those who love him. These are the people God chose, because that was his plan. 29 God knew them before he made the world. And he decided that they would be like his Son. Then Jesus would be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters. 30 God planned for them to be like his Son. He chose them and made them right with him. And after he made them right, he gave them his glory.

God’s Love in Christ Jesus
31 So what should we say about this? If God is for us, no one can stand against us. And God is with us. 32 He even let his own Son suffer for us. God gave his Son for all of us. So now with Jesus, God will surely give us all things. 33 Who can accuse the people God has chosen? No one! God is the one who makes them right. 34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us. 35 Can anything separate us from Christ’s love? Can trouble or problems or persecution separate us from his love? If we have no food or clothes or face danger or even death, will that separate us from his love? 36 As the Scriptures say,

“For you we are in danger of death all the time.
People think we are worth no more than sheep to be killed.”

37 But in all these troubles we have complete victory through God, who has shown his love for us. 38-39 Yes, I am sure that nothing can separate us from God’s love—not death, life, angels, or ruling spirits. I am sure that nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us or nothing below us—nothing in the whole created world—will ever be able to separate us from the love God has shown us in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Friedrich Rubinstein · Sep 15, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Please define your beliefs friend. Make a list of them and try to find them among the Church Fathers at newadvent.org

Newadvent.org seems to be Catholic(?) I'm not Catholic. Not sure what you're asking me to do.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
The trinity is a lot more complex than you apparently think. The simple fact that you think I'd deny the trinity shows that misconception.

Paul said "Christ is in you", do you believe it? Do you think Jesus is inside you as a human being or as a spirit?
In Jn 14:23 it says: "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them." Do you think Jesus will make home with them as a human being or as a spirit?

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" - 2 Cor 13:5

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." - Gal 2:20

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you" - Gal 4:19

"To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." - Col 1:27

And so on. If you deny that Christ is in us then you missed an important point of the gospel.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.
See the Spirit is not...

Daniel Marsh · Sep 15, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Newadvent.org seems to be Catholic(?) I'm not Catholic. Not sure what you're asking me to do.

The early fathers were taught by the apostles themselves as such they are good historical sources.

1. For sake of this discussion define your terms and beliefs.

2. Then make a complete list of your beliefs.
3 Search for them among the early church fathers because if your beliefs are not there. Than, it is very unlikely the early christians believed what you believe. Thus, making your beliefs novel and not in line with historical true christian doctrines.

good night, I got to go to bed since I have the virus.

Friedrich Rubinstein · Sep 15, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
The early fathers were taught by the apostles themselves as such they are good historical sources.

1. For sake of this discussion define your terms and beliefs.

2. Then make a complete list of your beliefs.
3 Search for them among the early church fathers because if your beliefs are not there. Than, it is very unlikely the early christians believed what you believe. Thus, making your beliefs novel and not in line with historical true christian doctrines.

good night, I got to go to bed since I have the virus.

My beliefs are defined by the Bible. You cited the whole chapter Romans 8 but apparently didn't read it? Some people here claimed that Jesus Christ is not in us because Jesus is a human being and not a spirit. But I quoted like half a dozen verses that affirm that Christ is in us. Certainly not as a human being but as a spirit. You can't divide the trinity into "Christ is human being only and there is only the Holy Spirit (as separate part of God) inside us". The trinity is more complex than that.

Whoever claims that Christ does not live in us should read 2 Cor 13:5 very carefully:
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?"

May you recover from the virus quickly

JohnDB · Sep 15, 2020

Ricky Tjin said:
I understand your reference to "Emanuel" meaning "God with us", but I don't know where you got name "Emanuel" from; it seems like a mistake. Can you explain it?

My horrible transliterations...
It really isn't important and if you have a more acceptable spelling I'm more than willing to go along with it. :sorry:

Ricky Tjin · Sep 16, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
The Messiah is God, Divine. A Divine Messiah - Bible Society in Israel
Chapter Nine: Messiah—God the Son? by Mark Eastman
What Bible verses say the Messiah would be God?
The Messiah Would be God!
"

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh

Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of Rom. 10:13 must be the "Lord" of Rom. 10:9, 10:12.

Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (Phil. 2:11), i.e., Jehovah.

Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. Psa. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.

1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8 a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in 1 Pet. 2:3 is Jesus.

1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.

Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.

Jesus has the titles of God

Titles belonging only to God

The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6

King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16

Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God

Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. Titus 2:10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 118:21

Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11

Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8

Jesus received the honors due to God alone

Honor: John 5:23

Love: Matt. 10:37

Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 23:46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. 2 Cor. 12:9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.

Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10

Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13

Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13

Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.

Jesus does the works of God

Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archê probably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24

Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 1:11-12

Salvation:

In General: See C.2.a. above

Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.

All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)

Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God

All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3

Self-existent: John 5:26

Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); Heb. 13:8

Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2

Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11

Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. John 2:23-24

Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27

Jesus is "equal with God"

John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In John 5:17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in John 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father

Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (Phil. 2:7-11)

Jesus is the Son of God

"Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).

Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.

Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.

On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).

Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).

Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.

Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).

Objections"

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Your whole posted list of Bible scriptures about Jesus Who is Jehovah/Yahweh and His Deity, and The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr. are really impressive; it proves your potency for spiritual maturity.
It's very well structured with a good overview.

Your Bible references to the Blueletterbible.org, for Bible verses, is really a good choice. I also appreciate issue #9 at your posted list, about The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr., with impressive information for spiritual edification, what is not often teached in churches or Christian communities.

Ricky Tjin · Sep 16, 2020

JohnDB said:
My horrible transliterations...
It really isn't important and if you have a more acceptable spelling I'm more than willing to go along with it.

Don't talk improper about yourself. You already have 1x winner award in this topic.

Let no corrupt word proceed from your mouth, but speak what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers of your words (Eph 4:29 NKJV).

May I encourage you according to your identity in the Messiah Immanuel

There is no condemnation for you who are in Immanuel The Messiah, who are not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life, in Immanuel The Messiah, has made you free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:1-2).

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you, through the knowledge of HaElohim and Immanuel our Lord, according to His divine power, that has given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him Who has called us to glory and virtue (2 Peter 1).

You are part of a chosen generation and a royal priesthood and a holy nation; His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2 NKJV).

The book "Victory over the darkness" by Neil T Anderson was really useful to me, to get awaken about my identity in Jesus Christ.

Victory over darkness_Neil T. Anderson_B.jpeg

Ricky Tjin · Sep 16, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
In case you need some scripture to back it up:

Look at Isaiah 9:5 for example where the Messiah is announced: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, [...], And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Mighty God! Jesus is the Messiah and the Messiah is God.
In Matthew 14:33 we read: "Then those who were in the boat worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God"." Only the one true God may be worshipped in Jewish culture; the actions of the disciples prove that they had recognized that Jesus was God. And Jesus did not correct them or said “Do you not see that I am also just a mortal prophet? Don't worship me! ”He accepted their worship because he knew that he was God in human form.
Jesus himself makes it very clear in John 8:58 where he says: "Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am!” And then we read: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." His audience understood what he was saying, but they didn't believe that he was God and took it as a reason to kill him. And also in John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Again they want to stone him because he clearly says that he himself is God.
Another example is John 20:28-29. Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and my God!", but instead of correcting him Jesus confirms it by saying “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Look at Colossians 1:15-16 where Paul says that Jesus is the creator of the universe and at Titus 2:13-14 where Paul calls Jesus "our great God". Oh and don't forget the powerful testimony of John: "In the beginning was the Word, …, and the Word was God. [...] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." That's Jesus!
There is also John 1:18 where it says: "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known".
And to those who admit that Jesus is the Messiah but not God you can also quote Romans 9:5: "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!"

God bless

Your reference to Romans 9:5 is a very good Bible verse. John 1:1-3 and Romans 9:5 both belong to the group of most powerful and clear Bible verses in the New Testament, which prove that Immanuel/Jesus Christ is God.

Romans 9:5 tells us that Immanuel/Jesus Christ is over all and that He is The Eternally Blessed God. Amen.

Psalm 27 · Sep 16, 2020

Ricky Tjin · Sep 16, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
God gives us the Holy Spirit which is Christ Himself, the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God at the same time.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Tell that Paul then. Pff.

Which Bible scripture(s) do you have to back it up, that Christ Himself is the Holy Spirit?

If you have no Bible scripture(s) to back it up, you may acknowledge it.

Matthew 12:31 KJV
Jesus Christ said: "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.".

Daniel Marsh · Sep 16, 2020

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
My beliefs are defined by the Bible. You cited the whole chapter Romans 8 but apparently didn't read it? Some people here claimed that Jesus Christ is not in us because Jesus is a human being and not a spirit. But I quoted like half a dozen verses that affirm that Christ is in us. Certainly not as a human being but as a spirit. You can't divide the trinity into "Christ is human being only and there is only the Holy Spirit (as separate part of God) inside us". The trinity is more complex than that.

Whoever claims that Christ does not live in us should read 2 Cor 13:5 very carefully:
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?"

May you recover from the virus quickly

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

I understand that to mean his Divine part, side is in us.

The Holy Spirit indwells us too -- Body temple of Holy Spirit.

“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him” (v. 23).

- John 14:21–24

The Indwelling of the Father and the Son

Daniel Marsh · Sep 16, 2020

Are there other passages that state, implicitly or explicitly, that the believer is indwelt by the Father and/or the Son?

A couple of texts in the Gospel of John seem to say the same thing as Colossians 1:27 - John 14:20; 15:4. 2 Corinthians 13:5 would also apply.

John 17:23 may indicate both the Father and the Son’s indwelling the believer:

17:20 "I am not praying only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their testimony, 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 17:22 The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one-- 17:23 I in them and you in me--that they may be completely one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.

If the Father indwells the Son, and the Son indwells the saint, then both Father and Son indwell the believer, along with the Spirit. I would think that because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would imply the indwelling of the entire Godhead.

1 John 4:4 may also support the fact that God indwells the believer.

4:4 You are from God, little children, and have conquered them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

If we are “from God,” then when John writes “the one who is in you,” in the same verse he could be referring to God.

Note also these verses in 1 John 4:

4:11 Dear friends, if God so loved us, then we also ought to love one another. 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God resides in us, and his love is perfected in us. 4:13 By this we know that we reside in God and he in us: in that he has given us of his Spirit. 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God resides in him and he in God (1 John 4:11-15).

Are there other passages that state, implicitly or explicitly, that the believer is indwelt by the Father and/or the Son? | Bible.org

Daniel Marsh · Sep 16, 2020

Jesus is not God the Father

Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
John 10:30
1. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
2. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
3. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).
John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
John 14:6-11
1. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
2. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
3. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.
John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 14:11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

...

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
  1. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. 2 Cor. 3:16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. 2 Cor. 3:17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
  2. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
  3. Rom. 8:27, 8:34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
  4. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare John 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
  5. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-22; Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
  1. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
  2. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Is Jesus God?

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